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    biggrin How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    I am trying to run a Dark Sun Campaign where the players will fight the Sorcerer Kings of at least 1, if not all, the city-states. Including Dregoth or Borys as a full Dragon.

    I'm trying to make their builds for each King, but the only one I can find is Dregoth, and I know Borys is a full Dragon, but I can't even find what stages the other dragons are in. If anyone has any idea, even if it's only their metamorphisis stage, I would really appreciate any help I could get with this.

    All I really want is to make them so that they are challenging but also are according to how powerful they're supposed to be lore wise. Also, if you have any ideas on what character lvls, prcs, anything would be helpful.

    Thank you all for any help

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Might depend on if you're using the "Dragon King" epic prestige class in Dragon Magazine or not.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    I am actually using the Athasian Dragon PrC from Athas.org I completely forget they had a PrC for them in the Dragon Magazines. It's kind of weird, I'm using the overpowered one from athas.org, but if the players want to become a dragon they have to use the one from legends of athas.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Can't say much for 3.x, but for the sake of perspective, in 2nd edition the dragon kings were each minimum 40 levels (20 of defiler, 20 of psionicist) plus a few levels of dragon at least. Of course, the way the levels work doesn't really equate to quite the same thing in AD&D, but still, they were just about the most powerful beings stomping around the world.

    They could destroy large swathes of the landscape and not actually notice they'd done it.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    So far I'm thinking Dregoth will be 59 with 19 lvls of Athasian Dragon from Athas.org, and if he kills my players have him lvl to 60. If I go with that, I need some sort of comparison between all the SK's and I really don't have one. And if I know what metamorphosis they are supposed to be in I can about double it for their dragon level. I just can't find any data on the others really.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    They could have levels in cerebremancer- to allow them high level casting and manifesting, without quite so many Hit Dice.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Cerebremancer is really nice, and it is what they're supposed to take, but the consensus seems to be that Mind Mage fits better since they are supposed to be overpowered and have been alive for thousands of years.

    So far I have this for my Dregoth Defiler 5/Egoist 5/Mind Mage 10/Archmage 5/Arch Psion 5/Loremaster 10/Athasian Dragon 19

    I don't know how much more powerful Borys is supposed to be but he is going to have 20 lvls of Athasian Dragon, but as far as them having so many hit die. I kind of want them to, because they've been around for thousands of years and they are supposed to be ridiculously overpowered and unstoppable killing machines. And if all goes as planned, my PC's will be around 40-50 when they fight them and one player wants to be a dragon. At the same time you may have a point

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Are Mind Mage and Arch Psion only on the Athas site? I haven't seen them in the XPH.

    Metamind might be a way of representing a sorcerer king as atypical compared to the others.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Mind Mage is actually in the dragon magazine #313, it's like cerebremancer but better, you only get 8 lvls of casting and manifesting, but at lvl 10 you can spend a full round action to increase both by 10 for 24 hours. And Arch Psion is technically 3.0 off the wizards site.

    Metamind would be cool, especially with the high manifester levels and font of power, he would really rape. Also, glowing crystally dragons are always awesome.
    Last edited by sokar1618; 2010-09-15 at 04:24 AM.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sokar1618 View Post
    So far I'm thinking Dregoth will be 59 with 19 lvls of Athasian Dragon from Athas.org, and if he kills my players have him lvl to 60. If I go with that, I need some sort of comparison between all the SK's and I really don't have one. And if I know what metamorphosis they are supposed to be in I can about double it for their dragon level. I just can't find any data on the others really.
    Going from memory (since I don't have the books ready to hand) in 2nd edition, Adropinus was a 23rd level dragon (again, that's 20 levels Psionicist and 20 levels defiler plus 3 leverls of dragon transformation) and was furthest along the track except for Dregoth who was a 29th level dragon before he was slain and then raised as undead: he's displeased by the state of affairs.

    Hamanu, IIRC, was 21st or 22nd level dragon as were pretty much all of the others. I don't think anybody else has broken past Andropinus in terms of raw, personal power.

    It should also be noted that Andropinus is hinted at having been an illusionist (i.e., a specialist mage).

    Boris is a 30th level, fully transformed dragon. He is, for all intents and purposes and comparitively speaking, unassailable except by the most powerful of figures, not least because he's the most powerful thing walking around the planet at the moment, but because he's had thousands of years to set up his own defenses that make it virtually impossible to get to him. Plus, he probably has just about any magic item ever conceived in his horde, plus access to just about any spell in existence, plus the resources of at least one complete city and the tribute of several others.
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    confused Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    by 21st lvl dragons, do you mean that's how many lvls of dragon they had?
    And Andropinus had 23 lvls of athasian dragon and completed the 3rd metamorphisis? Cuz wouldn't with 20 lvls defiler and psion, that make him 63? or was he gestalt?

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sokar1618 View Post
    by 21st lvl dragons, do you mean that's how many lvls of dragon they had?
    And Andropinus had 23 lvls of athasian dragon and completed the 3rd metamorphisis? Cuz wouldn't with 20 lvls defiler and psion, that make him 63? or was he gestalt?
    AD&D 2nd edition didn't work like that.

    In AD&D 2nd edition, the Dragons of Dark Sun had to acheive 20th level of ability as both a defiler and a psionicist. For humans, this meant advancing 1-20 in one class, then switching to the other and advancing again 1-20. In 3.x, this would make somebody a 40th level character, but in AD&D, he's still "only" a 20th level character even though he's advanced through 40 complete levels.

    After they had reached 20 in both classes, they were able to cast the first metamophosis spells and achieve dragonhood at 21st level and then there were 10 full levels of dragon metamorphosis before full transformation at level 30.

    When they switched classes, they essentially temporarily abandoned the previous class for the next 20 levels until their current level exceeded the first. So switching from psionicist to defiler meant that he dropped all his psionicist abilities in favor of pursuing magic. He didn't gain new hit points, saves, or anything like that, just ability as a wizard. It's only when his new class "caught up to" his old that he was able to blend them completely. Thus, still a 20th level character rather than a 40th level character at that point.

    Thus: saying that Andropinus is a 23rd level dragon doesn't mean he was a 63rd level character, but that he had reached 20th level as a psionicist, then 20th level as a defiler, and then undergone 3 levels of dragon metamorphosis making his total character level 23rd.

    I know this is not how 3.x works, but I'm just offering this info for comparison's sake.

    And now that it comes to it, I think I may be incorrect and it was Nibbennay who was the 23rd level dragon, not Andropinus. Don't know for sure until I can get my books out.

    Get yourself a copy of the Dragon Kings hardback from the 2e days. Has a lot of useful data in it, even if you aren't in it for the game materials.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    As for the other information, that's awesome. Especially Andropinus being an illusion specialist. One of the main things I'm trying to find is ways to make them different, but still go along with the lore. I love DS, it looks like the greatest setting ever, and I wanna do it justice! especially since Wizards is ruining it in 4E

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    I don't know- a lot of people say Revised Dark Sun, later in 2nd ed, was what "ruined" Dark Sun a bit- and the 4E version actually gets back to basics.
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    biggrin Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    3 Things; You have a point hamish, lots of people think 3e made it less harsh and ruined the point of Dark Sun, my point was that from what i've read on forums, by people who like Dark Sun. They're really pissed with Wizards because they're putting in dragonborn, having thri-kreen use mounts, and changing other things around that don't make sense in dark sun and they just don't like it.

    Hamlet, you rock, and if this file isn't corrupted I managed to find Dragon Kings as a pdf, however I think I might buy it if I can find it decently priced. Thanks for the advice, you were awesome, and If you have any other suggestions on how to do them or maybe on how to convert them from 2e to 3e, I would really appreciate it. I never got to play 2e cuz I got into d&d after 3.5 hit :(

    3rd, I actually forgot what I was going to say, but you both were really helpful, and I appreciate you guys taking the time out to lend me the assist. You guys = awesome^2
    OH! I just remembered, I think I'm gonna have to do a 2e campaign cuz I think the thing where you train one set of class levels and then another without actually increasing hit die is an awesome idea!

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I don't know- a lot of people say Revised Dark Sun, later in 2nd ed, was what "ruined" Dark Sun a bit- and the 4E version actually gets back to basics.
    I'd agree with the first part of that statement at least.

    Don't care for 4e in general, so whether it's "getting back to basics" or not just is immaterial.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Somehow, you're cool factor actually went up with that statement

    I've never really cared for 4e either, seemed to go the same way as wow, which was make everything too easy and simplified so there's really no point in doing this over this because ultimately, you do the same **** or at least similar, and as well

    Also, Dregoth is never mentioned in Dragon Kings, so I kind of don't have a comparison to derive how powerful they should be in 3.5 :/
    And yes, Nibenay was 23rd, and Tectuktitlay was 22nd, everyone else seems to be 21st
    Last edited by sokar1618; 2010-09-15 at 09:16 AM.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sokar1618 View Post
    Hamlet, you rock, and if this file isn't corrupted I managed to find Dragon Kings as a pdf, however I think I might buy it if I can find it decently priced. Thanks for the advice, you were awesome, and If you have any other suggestions on how to do them or maybe on how to convert them from 2e to 3e, I would really appreciate it. I never got to play 2e cuz I got into d&d after 3.5 hit :(
    Well, you can grab it off of Amazon starting at about $5. How's that for reasonable?

    http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Sun-Drago...4559810&sr=8-1

    Converting to 3rd edition? First, let me say that I wouldn't convert so to speak. It's something that'll end in heartbreak. Instead, take the idea, and just build on it from scratch in 3.x.

    Second, simplicity really is a virtue here, I think. I saw your build for Dregoth and, while I'm not versed enough in the arts of D20 optimization to say it's good or bad, I have to ask why so many classes? What do they all add? Do you really need them all? Keep in mind, I'm speaking from an aesthetic perspective here.

    The sorceror kings are all about raw power, first and foremost, power in the form of vast arcane ability and vast psionic ability. They've had thousands of years to collect and create new spells and items to suit every conceivable contingency, and there really is nothing new under the sun to them. This is especially true of the arcane side as I'd be willing to say that they all would have virtually ALL arcane spells at their disposal, if not via their own casting, then via that of a minion.

    However, they are also a bit static and locked in. They don't gain new levels except as dragons (not sure how that functions under 3.x, but in 2e that sort of limits them at that point, though not a whole lot) and they aren't going to be growing and expanding much beyond that. Or at all. They are hide bound traditionalists, really, and they learned most of what they know about magic when magic was brandy brand new, so they are likely all to have been straight up wizards and specialists rather than all these nifty prestige classes. Does't mean they DON'T have prestige classes, just that it'll have to be better justified as to why.

    Further complicated is Dregoth. He's undead. The others killed his crazy backside, but one of his faithful raised him up as a Kaisharga. If I had to design Dregoth myself as a 3.x character, I would say that he is more likely 20 levels of wizard (with transmuter specialty and/or a few levels of some class that involves eldritch transformations of others since he did create the Dray), 20 levels of straight up psion (with a focus in telekinetics maybe? or possibly psychoportation, I'll have to dig out my Dark Sun stuff since it actually lists his specialty), and then enough prestige levels of the Dragon class to cover 9/10ths of the full transformation. Then, I would add the Lich template to that all and then start adding any and all magic items that I felt would be a "wost possible case" for anybody looking to confront him. Any item that would be a ridiculous combo with his other abilities, he'll have it and use it mercilessly. Ignore WBL in this case since he'll probably have access to just about anything he could want or conceive of.

    But here's the rub for Dregoth: he's stuck behind his undead nature. While he's undead, he can't move forward as a dragon and that's what truly frustrates him. He's after finding a way around or past that.

    Kalak (if he still lives in your version of the setting) is most likely a transmuter and telepath based on what he was doing when he got chopped into kibble.

    Andropinus/Nibbennay (and the more I think of it, the more I think it was Nibbennay who was 23rd dragon and Shadow King Illusionist) was again, most likely an illusionist based on hints that are dropped at points.

    I wanna say that Lalia-Puy is an enchanter and telepath, but that's just me talking there.

    Hamanu . . . is interesting. I'd throw on some levels of a melee class for him since he's described as a warrior as well as a wizard/psion/dragon at points. He also likes to transform himself into a "war form" kind of thing (a giant lion/man/something) when he gets into wetwork. Make of that what you will. Dude has an ego miles longer than even the typical sorceror king.

    Boris is a special case. He was artificially powered up, so I'm not entirely sure what that makes him. Either more powerful than the others, or actually less and just really good and making up for the gaps. The original materials stat him up quite poorly compared to what Dragon Kings would have done for him, so you can either assume he suffered from having been artificially transformed rather than on his own devices, or just scrap that idea and just stat him up as he is: mind bogglingly powerful enough to intimidate all the other SK's combined and to single handedly keep Rajaat (so powerful he breaks all the meters) imprisoned in the Black.

    Keep in mind that as individually powerful as they are, the real power that the SK's have rests in their position as absolute leaders of their city states and the ability to draw on MASSIVE resources. By themselves, a sorceror king can, and occasionally will, go down like a chump, but remember that he is surrounded by tens of thousands, even millions of devoted or intimidated or mind raped followers who will defend him to the death and beyond. All of the sorceror kings are somewhat fond of Necromancy, recall. They also grant spells to Templars who are powerhouses themselves at certain points.

    I think I've wandered enough for the time being.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sokar1618 View Post
    Also, Dregoth is never mentioned in Dragon Kings, so I kind of don't have a comparison to derive how powerful they should be in 3.5 :/
    And yes, Nibenay was 23rd, and Tectuktitlay was 22nd, everyone else seems to be 21st
    Dregoth made his first appearance in the revised campaign setting, so there are some who don't include him as part of Athas at all. His power level was such that he could take on Pit Fiends single handed and win handily.

    That's in AD&D terms wherin Pit Fiends were disturbingly powerful and could tear through high level parties like tissue paper.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Mind Mage seems to fit perfectly with the raw power idea because it progresses both manifesting and casting for spells per day, power points, known everything. You only get 8 levels of each, where as cererbremancer (which seems to be default for them everywhere) , at level 10 mind mage gives you an ability you can use once per day, full round activation grants you 10 caster levels and manifester levels for 24 hours. So that can easily push both higher than their hit die if you don't take classes that only progress one or the other.

    Archmage and Arch Psion, they're supposed to be the absolute masters of psionics and arcane, even as raw power goes the high arcana and high psionics abilities they get are sometimes weaker version of what they get as dragons. Those just seemed to fit perfectly in the mix.

    Egoist is the psychometablism specialized psion, and in dregoth ascending he's said to have that, and making him a transmutation specialist could work well with that.

    Lore Master is what he's given in dregoth ascending as a PrC, it just lets you know secrets, and I guess it goes with him having traveled the outer planes gathering information and being a general know it all about magic or anything for that matter.

    As for how many dragon levels, in 3rd they use epic metamorphisis spells, which slowly and permanently modify their bodies into dragons. The PrC only requires you to have caster or manifested the defiler metamorphisis I spell. And while they make no correlation between the two. He's in the 9th stage but only has 8 dragon levels in dregoth ascending. And it seems like he's gotten over that because in DA he has a new group of epic spells that will make him a true god of athas.

    Do you know what books would have more info on the champions that I could peruse to find out specializations or at least ones they hint at?

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Second, simplicity really is a virtue here, I think. I saw your build for Dregoth and, while I'm not versed enough in the arts of D20 optimization to say it's good or bad, I have to ask why so many classes? What do they all add? Do you really need them all? Keep in mind, I'm speaking from an aesthetic perspective here.

    The sorceror kings are all about raw power, first and foremost, power in the form of vast arcane ability and vast psionic ability. They've had thousands of years to collect and create new spells and items to suit every conceivable contingency, and there really is nothing new under the sun to them. This is especially true of the arcane side as I'd be willing to say that they all would have virtually ALL arcane spells at their disposal, if not via their own casting, then via that of a minion.
    I was thinking about this today, and I think you might actually have a really good point. While the prestige classes give them some cool stuff, and I probably will keep mind mage, at least for some since they are supposed to use cerebremancer to double progress arcane and psionics, limiting them to mostly dragon, and maybe one prestige class to make them more unique amongst each other would be a good idea. I could even do cerebremancer and mind mage, in that order, to kind of show how they grew in both power and knowledge being able have this immense raw power.

    I was thinking Defiler 5/ Psion 5/ Cerebremancer 10/ Mind Mage 10/ Dragon 10. For all of them base, that would give them 40hd, and 43 caster levels and 43 manifester levels. While yes 3 more than your hd isn't lolOMGWTFDQBBQL33TH4xROFLMAO! but it's definitely more than your average manifester or caster, even of the same HD.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Hm - this is likely not what you want to hear. Still, it's input.

    The sorcerer-kings are little short of gods - I'd put their power level at 'not defeatable by anything short of plot!'

    Basically, they have near-limitless magical and psionic personal power to draw on - an army of templars at their call - and thousands of years of time in which to craft defences, plan contingencies, and plant spies and informers as well as use divinations to find threats before they become dangerous.

    The players - to my way of thinking - should have no chance at all against those odds. Unless the plot is very specifically designed to help them overcome the odds.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    The sorcerer-kings are little short of gods - I'd put their power level at 'not defeatable by anything short of plot!'
    You have a good point, and to be honest if I didn't want them to be able to kill them, they never would get close. Even with contingent resurrection, the players wouldn't be able to stop any of them. And I've kind of always had a problem with campaigns or anything where someone that's maybe 50+ years old and this powerful, is able to kill something that's had thousands of years to plan and should be unkillable except by something even older. But the way I'm doing my campaign kind of sets it up to where nothing before now could have gotten as powerful as the SK's as quickly as the players.

    And at the same time I kind of feel it's cheap and unfair for PCs to kill a Sorcerer King. I was actually wondering if making it so they could get that powerful was too much. At the same time, isn't a party killing a Demon Lord really cheap?

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Acromos View Post
    Hm - this is likely not what you want to hear. Still, it's input.

    The sorcerer-kings are little short of gods - I'd put their power level at 'not defeatable by anything short of plot!'

    Basically, they have near-limitless magical and psionic personal power to draw on - an army of templars at their call - and thousands of years of time in which to craft defences, plan contingencies, and plant spies and informers as well as use divinations to find threats before they become dangerous.

    The players - to my way of thinking - should have no chance at all against those odds. Unless the plot is very specifically designed to help them overcome the odds.
    I wouldn't go quite this far. After all, AD&D 2e, whose official policy was that the Powers/Gods were so far above mortals that statting them out was pointless had full stats available for even Boris (though again, quality of those stats is questionable).

    I would say that the SK's are EXTREMELY powerful by themselves, but certainly not invincible to anything but plot. A crafty, intelligent, or likewise powerful party should be able to cut them down with a lot of forethought and prep work. The key, though, is that after thousands of years, and with the resources of entire cities at their beck and call, the real power is not personal, but institutional. Going against a sorceror king really means going against entire nations on your own. For instance, it took 7 full sorceror kings and all their power to bring down Dregoth initially.

    As for Dregoth sources: he was first really mentioned in the revised campaign setting, then again in City by the Silt Sea (which had some locations and fluff for him and data about his city), and he gets periodic mentions afterward, but nothing too extensive. It seems that City by the Silt Sea is really the biggest and most extensive source on the guy.

    A word of caution: I know it says that Dregoth travels the planes all the time, but that's problematic since planar travel is supposed to be all but impossible (and lethally dangerous) on Athas. Of course, that gets ignored frequently in the interests of cool stories. So, two choices are to either change his ambitions slightly to cut out the planar travel and all that, or make it his goal to get off this blasted rock in the first place. Or, put into his posession an artifact that permits travel to the planes safely. The later is how the "official" material did it, giving him a planar gate in the form of a big ornate mirror.
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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    I wouldn't go quite this far. After all, AD&D 2e, whose official policy was that the Powers/Gods were so far above mortals that statting them out was pointless had full stats available for even Boris (though again, quality of those stats is questionable).
    Indeed. Heck, the Obsidian Man (an artifact construct from the 2e Book of Artifacts) bloodied and battered a Sorcerer King after slaying a small army of half-giant guards and rampaging across his city. It lost, but it put up a serious fight and its stats are within reason for a tough PC party to beat.

    (On the other hand, PCs rolling across the world and killing all the Sorcerer-Kings feels like a little much unless it's an extended campaign with wars and nation-building, but that's just my opinion.)

    EDIT: 'Artists' for 'Artifacts' was a weird substitution on the part of my brain. Fixed.
    Last edited by Lapak; 2010-09-16 at 08:21 AM.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapak View Post
    Indeed. Heck, the Obsidian Man (an artifact construct from the 2e Book of Artifacts) bloodied and battered a Sorcerer King after slaying a small army of half-giant guards and rampaging across his city. It lost, but it put up a serious fight and its stats are within reason for a tough PC party to beat.

    (On the other hand, PCs rolling across the world and killing all the Sorcerer-Kings feels like a little much unless it's an extended campaign with wars and nation-building, but that's just my opinion.)

    EDIT: 'Artists' for 'Artifacts' was a weird substitution on the part of my brain. Fixed.
    Indeed. The SK's are not invulnerable, just tough.

    By the way, I love the obsidian man. Guy's kinda freaky and I always thought he was a great tool to drop in the player's hands if they were actively searching for a way to kill a sorceror king. Powerful enough to give them the brute firepower to hold down a warrior type king, but double edged enough that you can sit back and watch in glee as things go inevitably wrong.

    Also also, the artifacts for Dark Sun in the Book of Artifacts are really exceptional for anybody putting together a campaign in Athas.
    It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Indeed. The SK's are not invulnerable, just tough.

    By the way, I love the obsidian man. Guy's kinda freaky and I always thought he was a great tool to drop in the player's hands if they were actively searching for a way to kill a sorceror king. Powerful enough to give them the brute firepower to hold down a warrior type king, but double edged enough that you can sit back and watch in glee as things go inevitably wrong.

    Also also, the artifacts for Dark Sun in the Book of Artifacts are really exceptional for anybody putting together a campaign in Athas.
    *snort*

    "Hooray! An unstoppable warrior golem to lead our uprising! We can sic him on the Sorcerer King!"

    [one week later]
    "Okay, Unstoppable Golem, you can stop killing things now."
    "Please stop killing things now."
    "We won, thanks! It's time to kick back!"
    "ARGH OW OW STOPPIT"

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapak View Post
    *snort*

    "Hooray! An unstoppable warrior golem to lead our uprising! We can sic him on the Sorcerer King!"

    [one week later]
    "Okay, Unstoppable Golem, you can stop killing things now."
    "Please stop killing things now."
    "We won, thanks! It's time to kick back!"
    "ARGH OW OW STOPPIT"
    Yeah. Or the sorceror king realizes what's coming and makes it a point to filch the control circlet, or duplicate it. Result, epic battle of the wills for control of the Dark Sun Nuke.
    It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    One, almost fact, about fiction is that the older things get the more complacent, and conceited. And a lot of the sorcerer kings seem to be that way. They all have the resources to advance their metamorphisis but don't, except Dregoth can't, yet they don't. While that could be because they don't have the population to be able to because of the levy to Borys, it seems that over an extended period they would be able to if they wanted but none do.

    They mostly seem like they think they're the most powerful things out there, so they don't try to really become much more powerful. Again the exception being to this is Dregoth, who seems determined to become the most powerful thing in existence. They just seem to me to be stagnant, and if a party spent enough time and effort to beat them, it wouldn't seem that much of a stretch really. I could also have it pegged all wrong.

    Do any of you have a good suggestion for how I should start the 3.0 builds for the SKs?

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    Default Re: How powerful are the Sorcerer Kings [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sokar1618 View Post
    One, almost fact, about fiction is that the older things get the more complacent, and conceited. And a lot of the sorcerer kings seem to be that way. They all have the resources to advance their metamorphisis but don't, except Dregoth can't, yet they don't. While that could be because they don't have the population to be able to because of the levy to Borys, it seems that over an extended period they would be able to if they wanted but none do.

    They mostly seem like they think they're the most powerful things out there, so they don't try to really become much more powerful. Again the exception being to this is Dregoth, who seems determined to become the most powerful thing in existence. They just seem to me to be stagnant, and if a party spent enough time and effort to beat them, it wouldn't seem that much of a stretch really. I could also have it pegged all wrong.

    Do any of you have a good suggestion for how I should start the 3.0 builds for the SKs?
    It's not quite that simple. While certainly there's some complacancy in effect, you'll want to re-read your copy of Dragon Kings. The requirements for each level of the metamorphosis are extraordinarily prohibitive, to the tune of many hundreds of human sacrifices and enough wealth to purchase a mid-sized city on its own. When you get to the higher levels, you have to make friendly contact with extra-planar beings (with all inherent difficulties of getting safely through the Black) and convince it to assist your efforts. Plus on top of that, for the last four levels or so, you pretty much go on an insane, murderous rampage, something that tends to erode one's power base.

    I don't know enough about 3.x to help you design a build competently, so I'm not of any help in that regard except to say that in my experience, simplicity tends to work better.
    It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.

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