Dualist or Rogue???

[ninjaneer003]

So I'm about to start player a pathfinder game where i'll be playing a changeling (Races of Eberron) and I'm having trouble deciding whether i should go strait rogue or multi-class and eventually go dualist.

They both seem fun to play but i just can't choose. So any suggestions???

[Zore]

So I'm about to start player a pathfinder game where i'll be playing a changeling (Races of Eberron) and I'm having trouble deciding whether i should go strait rogue or multi-class and eventually go dualist.

They both seem fun to play but i just can't choose. So any suggestions???

Duelist is a really bad prestige class. If you want most of the same abilities in a much better package check out the Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior, there's a multiclassing feat that even let your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak attack and other things.

[Draz74]

Duelist is a really bad prestige class. If you want most of the same abilities in a much better package check out the Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior, there's a multiclassing feat that even let your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak attack and other things.

Pathfinder. I almost missed that part too.

[Esser-Z]

PF is backwards compatible, and I don't think they improved the duelist, so!


Now, the Dualist interests me. Do they, say, split to fight? Or maybe the soul and body separate to flank and stuff...

[Zore]

Pathfinder. I almost missed that part too.

The Races of Eberron threw me off.

Looking at the Pathfinder class... I like the first three levels of it or so. You may want to take four levels in Duelist total and then go the rest Rogue, I'm pretty sure that should give you a nice bonus to damage, attack bonus and AC. I think pathfinder Rogue is better after that though.

So 16 Rogue/4 Duelist or so, taking the Duelist early on.

[PId6]

PF duelist is better than the 3.5 one, but it's still not great. Prereq-wise, you still have to take Dodge and Mobility, neither of which are still all that helpful. Canny defense is okay, but you likely can't spare enough points in Int to make it really worthwhile. Precise strike just doesn't give enough damage to rely on alone, especially since it doesn't allow you to TWF. The other abilities besides the capstone are all mediocre without much synergy, and even the capstone is too little too late.

I would say definitely stick to rogue. If you do want to multiclass, see the handbook link in my sig for some good suggestions on what to multiclass into. Swordsage, wizard/unseen seer, assassin (not PF assassin), barbarian, swashbuckler, and other classes are all quite good for that purpose, much better than duelist at any rate.

[Person_Man]

I agree with PId6. Pathfinder Duelist is better then 3.5, but it still mostly sucks. So I'd stick with Pathfinder Rogue.

If it's of any help to you, I had a player who wanted to play a Duelist a while back, so I homebrewed a solution for him. Perhaps it will suit your needs:

Here's a homebrew I made shortly after Pathfinder came out for one of my player's:

The Duelist

Spoiler

Show

Prerequisites: +5 BAB, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Tumble 3 ranks

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +1 | +0| +1 | +0 | Canny Defense, Precise Strike
2nd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Parry
3rd | +3 | +1 | +2 | +1 | Grace
4th | +4 | +1 | +2 | +1 | Cunning Reflexes
5th | +5 | +2 | +3 | +2 | Acrobatic Charge
6th | +6 | +2 | +3 | +2 | Riposte
7th | +7 | +2 | +4 | +2 | Elaborate Defense
8th | +8 | +3 | +4 | +3 | Evasion
9th | +9 | +3 | +5 | +3 | Advance
10th | +10 | +3| +5 | +3 | Crippling Strike
[/table]

Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a Dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. This bonus stacks with all other Dodge bonuses. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage rolls. When making a Precise Strike a duelist cannot attack using two hands or use a shield. This restriction also applies to the duelist's Parry, Riposte, Elaborate Defense, and Crippling Strike abilities.

Parry (Ex): Whenever you or an adjacent ally is attacked by a melee or ranged weapon, you may attempt to Parry it as an Immediate Action. If you choose to use this ability, you must declare that you are using it after your enemy successfully hits but before the DM announces damage or effects of the attack. Make a melee attack roll, adding your Intelligence modifier as bonus to hit. If your modified attack roll is higher then the enemy’s modified attack roll, the attack is negated.

Grace (Ex): Any Dodge bonus that you possess from any feat or class ability now applies to all enemy attacks against you. You no longer need to "designate" one foe. This includes the AC bonus, as well as any special abilities or feats that rely on the Dodge ability, such as the Elusive Target or Defensive Throw feats. In addition, you may add any Dodge bonus to AC that you possess from any feat or class ability (such as Canny Defense) as an Insight bonus to your Reflex Save as well.

Cunning Reflexes (Ex): You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If you already have Combat Reflexes, you may choose any other feat that you qualify for in it's place.

In addition once per round as a free action you may add your Intelligence bonus as a bonus to hit on any attack of opportunity.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): When you Charge you are not required to move in a strait line. You may make as many turns and changes in direction as you like, within the limit of your doubled movement rate. You may also Charge over difficult terrain, through occupied squares, or by swinging on a rope/chain/etc in the direction of your enemy (though you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain). You also gain the Pounce ability (you may make a full attack when you Charge).

Riposte (Ex): A duelist can make an attack of opportunity against any creature whose attack she successfully Parries, so long as the creature she is attacking is within reach.

Elaborate Defense (Ex): You gain Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If you already possess this feat, you may choose any other feat that you qualify for in it's place. In addition, once per round as a Free Action when an enemy attacks you and misses (either because it failed to hit your AC or because you successfully used Parry to block the attack) you may make a Disarm attempt as an attack of opportunity.

Evasion (Ex): You gain the Evasion ability. If you already have the Evasion ability, you gain Improved Evasion instead.

Advance (Ex): Whenever an enemy within your threatened area makes a 5 ft step, you may also make a 5ft step as a Free Action. This does not prevent you from moving normally or taking another 5ft step on your turn.

Crippling Strike (Ex): Whenever you successfully use the Precise Strike ability and confirm a critical hit, you also deal 1 point of Dexterity damage and reduce all of the target's movement speeds by 5 ft (to a minimum of 5 ft). The movement penalties from multiple Crippling Strikes stack, and each penalty lasts until the target has repaired the Dexterity damage from the Crippling Strike that imposed it. Enemies that are immune to critical hits or ability damage are immune to this ability.

[ninjaneer003]

Ok i might go rogue/swashbuckler than. I really like the feel of the the dualist and the swashbuckler has that any chance you can tell me where i can find that multi-class feat? Complete Warrior?

[Draz74]

Complete Scoundrel. It took a while after the (underpowered) Swashbuckler came out before they realized that he really needed a boost in the form of a multiclass-boosting feat.

The multiclass feat is called Daring Outlaw. Daring Outlaw builds can go either way: Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 16, or Swashbuckler 4 / Rogue 16. (The first wants 4 levels of Rogue because Uncanny Dodge is nice, and Swashbuckler 17 doesn't give you anything good; the second wants four levels of Swashbuckler because it gets you four iterative attacks by Level 20.) Just depends whether you want more skill points, or more hit points and Base Attack Bonus.

[Person_Man]

Ok i might go rogue/swashbuckler than. I really like the feel of the the dualist and the swashbuckler has that any chance you can tell me where i can find that multi-class feat? Complete Warrior?

Daring Outlaw is in Complete Scoundrel.

Also, Pathfinder Rogue 20 is superior to Swashbuckler 3/Pathfinder Rogue 17 or Pathfinder Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 or whatever mix you end up with. Getting Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat is a wash if you're spending a feat on Daring Outlaw. And getting Int to Damage against some enemies and a few points of BAB is not worth giving up Master Strike and Advanced Talents.

[Fax Celestis]

PF is backwards compatible, and I don't think they improved the duelist, so!

Yes they did. It is now quite a bit better, if you know how to use it.

[Esser-Z]

Yes they did. It is now quite a bit better, if you know how to use it.

Did they? I hadn't ever really looked, heh. Or rather, I didn't remember the 3.5 and failed to check. My bad.

[Heliomance]

SPeaking of, does anyone know of a Swashbuckler handbook? The only one I've been able to find mention of was eaten by the Wizards board reshuffle.

[PId6]

SPeaking of, does anyone know of a Swashbuckler handbook? The only one I've been able to find mention of was eaten by the Wizards board reshuffle.

Take three levels and get out unless you have Daring Outlaw? There's not much else to it. Beyond the first three levels, it's basically a fighter with bad bonus feats, so not much more to say there.

[Fax Celestis]

Take three levels and get out unless you have Daring Outlaw? There's not much else to it. Beyond the first three levels, it's basically a fighter with bad bonus feats, so not much more to say there.

The CMage ACFs help it a lot, actually.

[Awnetu]

I'm confused, trading away grace for semi decent SLAs usable only twice a day and only lasting 3 rounds(after 20 levels, before that they only last a round each) a use doesn't seem to help all that much.

the SLA's available are Blur, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Climb, Jump, and Spider Climb.

[PId6]

The CMage ACFs help it a lot, actually.

Arcane Stunt is interesting and useful (compared to what it replaces), but it's not much compared to just using wands of 1st level spells with UMD or a 1 level dip. But you're right; the ACFs from CM and PHB2 do bear mentioning, since they're almost strict upgrades to the existing class features.

[Heliomance]

I have a player in a game I'm about to run who wants to play a Swashbuckler (sorry for the thread hijack!) As I'm the local optimiser, I was planning on giving op-fu advice to my players and running a fairly high-op game, such games being rare in my area. He wants to do the one-handed rapier fighter thing, and I'm not sure how best to help him. I have suggested ToB, but he doesn't know it at all and I've only really glanced through it so I don't know which bits would be best. Possibly Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind?
As for those ACFs, Arcane Stunt seems a bit meh, and Shield of Blades only works with two weapons.

[Eldariel]

I have a player in a game I'm about to run who wants to play a Swashbuckler (sorry for the thread hijack!) As I'm the local optimiser, I was planning on giving op-fu advice to my players and running a fairly high-op game, such games being rare in my area. He wants to do the one-handed rapier fighter thing, and I'm not sure how best to help him. I have suggested ToB, but he doesn't know it at all and I've only really glanced through it so I don't know which bits would be best. Possibly Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind?

Yeah, Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind and perhaps some Tiger Claw/Iron Heart (Wall of Blades/Manticore Parry, much? And Rabid Wolf Strike/Rabid Bear Strike and Sudden Leap) seems like the way to go. Diamond Mind is the quintessential one-hander discipline and thanks to ToB, he isn't actually at much of a damage deficit by comparison.

The other option is Swordsage; level 8 stance from Shadow Hand requires one hand free and allows you to walk in the air. Balance in the Sky is the name. Warblade or Swordsage (or a combination!) works just fine, and both can enter Master of the Nine.


Unfortunately outside ToB, one-handed fighting is just really gimped. Outside "Einhander" from PHBII (which is mediocre), it's basically completely unsupported meaning you're just giving up about half your damage output for no gain. ToB is really quite simple; show him the disciplines and the abilities he'd get from there and it should really be quite easy to sell. This is really a huge boon with ToB; it acts as a grand balancer making all the strange fighting styles work on roughly the same level.

[IdleMuse]

Arcane Stunt becomes a lot better in campaigns where UMD is less 'available' due to limits on cash, crafting, or magic marts.