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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalaska'Agathas View Post
    On topic: speaking of the blitz, why was it that Gloster Meteors were kept at home on V1 busting duty rather than used against the new Me 262 threat? While they developed tactics to successfully do so, why would the allies throw piston aircraft at jets when you have jets of your own?

    That was kinda well after the Blitz, but...

    Range, I suspect. And secrecy. It was still an experimental weapon, and putting it against V1s was nice and 'safe' and wouldn't result in one landing in the German's laps.

    And although a lot of aircraft were moved across to Europe to operate closer to the front lines and extend their range, I suspect that things would be trickier with the meteor. You can take a Spitfire or a Mustang off from a grass strip, but you need a metalled surface for jets, and the allies were busy bombing them all, so there weren't many to capture.


    Perhaps the claim that the sword was "better" than the polearm should be amended with "in single combat".
    It really shouldn't. Pole weapons wielded with equal skill are still generally at least the equal to swords, even in single combat. In England the shod staff was viewed as a fearsome weapon, while over in Japan the spearman was reckoned to have the edge over the swordsman. Swords are in no way 'better' than pole weapons at killing people.

    Swords are a weapon of the wealthy and a badge of rank. They're also handy to carry around and useful in a wide degree of circumstances against a wide range of threats. They are an expensive compromise in many ways. We've just been bought up to look up at swords as some kind of fantastic thing. So the 'mythology' is still working.


    Would a curved blade sword, like a cutlass or a cavalry saber, be used as a side-arm?
    Yup. Look at Japan. In the West though, such weapons only became prevalent long after the age of mythology, so the swords of our myths are straight ones.

    Curved swords make great light cavalry blades, so were very popular as such in many cultures.


    and see if the place is still there, and wheter the bomb is still there.
    There are VERY few factories of the period still standing. But bomb disposal teams being called in to deal with 60 year old unexploded ordinance tends to be something that still occurs fairly regularly.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    There are VERY few factories of the period still standing. But bomb disposal teams being called in to deal with 60 year old unexploded ordinance tends to be something that still occurs fairly regularly.
    Yeah, when I lived in Hamburg, traffic news said that a road was blocked because of old bomb disposal every few months. Never heard of any of those exploding though, and they are usually discovered when an excavator hits something hard. I've heard it's similar in Berlin.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Berlin still features bullet-holes in buildings.

    The medieval church 50 yards from where I live was reduced to a crumbled tower by the Luftwaffe in 1941.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    My apologies if this has come up before.

    Is there a generally agreed-upon explanation for why the sword is the de facto standard weapon in fantasy and (more interestingly) legend? I know that certainly not every legend has a sword in it, but to my (totally) untrained eye it seems like the number of legends in which swords feature prominently kind of outstrips the prominence of the sword as a historical weapon (compared to, say, polearms or bows). I repeat, there's plenty of exceptions, but it's still a pretty common thing, so far as I know. Is there anything at all that we can reasonably point to as a major contributor to this trend?
    Adding a few more examples of mythologies in which the major characters didn't use swords:

    1. Philippine mythology's warriors were mostly spear-wielders, as far as I can tell.

    2. Hindu mythology has warriors who were excellent at many weapons, but the bow seems to be most common, since the Astras (divine weapons bestowed by the gods as special blessings on warriors of great virtue) were often channeled through ranged weapons. Heck, the Brahmastra is closer to a nuke than anything. Other weapons that appeared in the hands of heroes were the mace (Hanuman and Bhima), and the spear (Lakshmana and Indrajita). The only one I recall who actually had a named sword was Ravana, the demon king and primary villain of the Ramayana, who wielded Chandrahas (the Moon Blade). Having 20 arms, he wielded a whole bunch of other weapons too.

    3. Fereydun in the Persian Shahnameh wielded a mace as well, if I'm not mistaken.


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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Didn't Hercules wield a club? And I think there were some early christian monks or priests who were reported to use clubs as well.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    This might be of some interest:

    Health, Grooming and Medicine in the Viking Age

    Especially the section on "Battle injuries and first aid", near the bottom. (Emphasis mine)

    In chapter 23 of Víga-Glúms saga, Þórarinn was struck by a blow that cut through his shoulder such that his lungs fell out. He was bound up, and Halldóra watched over him until the battle was over. Þórarinn was carried home where his wounds were treated, and over the summer, he recovered.


    I may have to reconsider my opinion of hitpoint systems as unrealistic....
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by fusilier View Post
    Didn't Hercules wield a club? And I think there were some early christian monks or priests who were reported to use clubs as well.
    Hercules did use a club sometimes, such as when he fought the Hydra, but more often his bow (Stymphalian birds, rescuing Prometheus) or his bare hands (Antaeus, Nemean Lion)

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Yeah, when I lived in Hamburg, traffic news said that a road was blocked because of old bomb disposal every few months. Never heard of any of those exploding though, and they are usually discovered when an excavator hits something hard. I've heard it's similar in Berlin.
    The swath of modern-day France where the WWI Western Front was fought is still riddled with unexploded munitions. They're buried underground, but get slowly brought to the surface by freezing/thawing, just like rocks. It's so bad in places that there are national preserves that the public is not allowed to enter, and a permanent, professional group of demineurs who go around collecting the various shells, grenades, and bombs that pop up (both inside and outside of the preserves).

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    I may have to reconsider my opinion of hitpoint systems as unrealistic....
    Given the reports of the other injuries, I somewhat doubt the credibility pf the claim.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    One would have define "single combat" as there are so many forms of it... As well as what sword and what polearm we exactly talk about.

    Modern reenacting steel fights suggest that polearms from spears to glaives are actually very potent in duels, from obvious reach striking possibilities. Of course, such "fights" have tonnes of reason as for why they can't resemble "real thing", but nothing changes basic handling qualities.
    The problem is the rules, in most Re-enactor groups you aren't allowed to grab the haft of an opponents polearm which is probably the number one technique you use against a spear, staff or polearm as soon as you get into any kind of bind. In many re-enactor groups you aren't even allowed to attack their hands. The rules also can effect the polearm user quite a bit too because they often aren't allowed to strike with the spear 'butt' or trip or use a variety of other fundamental historical techniques which appear in the European fencing manuals and exist in the martial arts traditions in Asia.

    Generally, the more armor swordman has, the easier he can handle the reach and polearm ability to counter his closing in with short stab or whatever.

    But again, the more armor involved, the less useful most swords become.

    So in all, as always in such broad matters, nothing can be called simply better than something else.
    I agree with that. People always want simple answers to these sorts of questions but it's never that simple.

    It's a mistake to say swords dominated the battlefields because spears and bows etc. were the primary weapons.

    On the other hand it's a mistake to say that swords were not critical on the battlefield because the sidearm was so important. Armies equipped with swords and spears had a significant advantage over armies equipped with just spears or spears and knives or spears and axes.

    That is why they went through the (comparatively) huge expense to make them, and put up with carrying them and maintaning them. Not fashion :)

    G.
    Last edited by Galloglaich; 2010-09-16 at 02:06 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by AslanCross View Post
    Adding a few more examples of mythologies in which the major characters didn't use swords:

    1. Philippine mythology's warriors were mostly spear-wielders, as far as I can tell.
    And yet, depending precisely where you are, the Sword has enormous prestige in the Philippines. The Kris for example, the Barong among the Moro, the Kampilan... just to name a few.

    2. Hindu mythology has warriors who were excellent at many weapons, but the bow seems to be most common, since the Astras (divine weapons bestowed by the gods as special blessings on warriors of great virtue) were often channeled through ranged weapons. Heck, the Brahmastra is closer to a nuke than anything. Other weapons that appeared in the hands of heroes were the mace (Hanuman and Bhima), and the spear (Lakshmana and Indrajita). The only one I recall who actually had a named sword was Ravana, the demon king and primary villain of the Ramayana, who wielded Chandrahas (the Moon Blade). Having 20 arms, he wielded a whole bunch of other weapons too.
    All true, but the sword remained the principle prestige weapon in India as well, it is the center of the sacred symbol of the Sikhs to this day

    http://library.thinkquest.org/07aug/...ikh_Khanda.png

    3. Fereydun in the Persian Shahnameh wielded a mace as well, if I'm not mistaken.
    Persia is another sword loving culture, the Akinakes in ancient times; the Shamshir from the end of the Middle Ages.

    G.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    This might be of some interest:

    Health, Grooming and Medicine in the Viking Age

    Especially the section on "Battle injuries and first aid", near the bottom. (Emphasis mine)





    I may have to reconsider my opinion of hitpoint systems as unrealistic....
    Great link... here is another good one:

    http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/herbs/baths.html

    G.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    This might be of some interest:

    Health, Grooming and Medicine in the Viking Age

    Especially the section on "Battle injuries and first aid", near the bottom. (Emphasis mine)



    I may have to reconsider my opinion of hitpoint systems as unrealistic....
    Just like with intestines falling out, this is actually not as dangerous as it sounds. As long as the lungs (or other organs) aren't injured and you put them back in and seal the wound quickly you should in theory be just fine. Assuming you avoid/survive the infections of course. It looks very horrifying and dramatic, but is far less dangerous than it seems.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Another consideration regarding a Sword.

    In the confines of a castle (during a siege) you can't really swing a mace or axe very well. A polearm will help you hold a position such as the top of the stairs or the end of a hallway, but really isn't great for advancing in such confines. The (one handed) sword on the other hand, can still thrust, can still cut, can still be used in pretty narrow confines to excellent degree. One can still use a sword very effectively in a space the width of one human body. The axe and mace I can't say the same about, and the polearm becomes cumbersome in such confines.

    Just something to think about, though I'm sure someone could elaborate further on the matter. This was just what I was told regarding old school siege tactics and I do not have a source on it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fhaolan View Post
    I have a collection of stories from my grandparents about WWII in Britain.

    My grandmother met my grandfather during the war. He was a turbine engineer by trade, and so he wasn't allowed to go to the front, he was required to stay behind and supervise women that were assembling detonators in London. My grandmother apparantly deliberately let springs fly all over the place just to have him bend over to pick them up. I guess my grandfather had a nice ass. Things don't change much, do they?

    The funny story was that she showed up the factory early one day, and in the breakroom (or change room, not sure), she found a german bomb had come through the roof and hadn't detonated. When the rest of the crew showed up, they took the bomb, mounted it on a plaque with a sign below saying 'Rene's Bomb' (Grandma's name was Irene.)

    I hope they defused it. Though with the way they dealt with things then, they may not of.

    Unfortunately, grandma's not in a fit state to tell me where the factory was precisely. I'd like to head over to England some day, and see if the place is still there, and wheter the bomb is still there.
    My grandmother has all kinds of stories of the kids playing with undetonated ordinance. Eventually it did become quite common place to the point where it was ignored and left where it fell for days or even weeks, so it wouldn't surprise me if that bomb was never actually defused/disarmed properly prior to it being mounted on the wall.
    Then again, my grandmother also took a short cut through a mine field once in a while to get to school. She lived near one of the landing strips. Struck me as a bit odd that they would use land mines on home turf, when the most likely attack on the airfield and landing strip would come from the air. But again, uber prepared was the name of the game I guess.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2010-09-16 at 03:44 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    My apologies if this has come up before.

    Is there a generally agreed-upon explanation for why the sword is the de facto standard weapon in fantasy and (more interestingly) legend? I know that certainly not every legend has a sword in it, but to my (totally) untrained eye it seems like the number of legends in which swords feature prominently kind of outstrips the prominence of the sword as a historical weapon (compared to, say, polearms or bows). I repeat, there's plenty of exceptions, but it's still a pretty common thing, so far as I know. Is there anything at all that we can reasonably point to as a major contributor to this trend?
    My 2 cp - swords have a lot of metal in them, making them expensive. This means that only nobles, professionals and heroes could afford them, once upon a time. So they have a kinda association with the high-ups in fighting.

    As for fantasy, I personally think a guy with a sword has slightly more flavour (had, before it became overused), than a guy with what is basically a sharpened gardening tool.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Another consideration regarding a Sword.

    In the confines of a castle (during a siege) you can't really swing a mace or axe very well. A polearm will help you hold a position such as the top of the stairs or the end of a hallway, but really isn't great for advancing in such confines. The (one handed) sword on the other hand, can still thrust, can still cut, can still be used in pretty narrow confines to excellent degree. One can still use a sword very effectively in a space the width of one human body. The axe and mace I can't say the same about, and the polearm becomes cumbersome in such confines.

    Just something to think about, though I'm sure someone could elaborate further on the matter. This was just what I was told regarding old school siege tactics and I do not have a source on it.
    I'm not so certain, it really depends upon how the fortifications are laid out. The stairs in many castles were designed so that right handed people wielding swords could defend them, but the attackers' swings/thrusts would be blocked.

    It is the case during sieges that pikemen were typically converted to sword and buckler for storming purposes, but I think that halberds were also distributed. (Although I can think of at least one period woodcut that shows a collection of pikes sticking out of a trench). Probably the nature of the combat meant that formed troops with pikes would be too slow to react, or simply could not be deployed in the space. If the space is truly confining, then it may even be difficult to swing swords. Trench warfare in WW1 typically involved clubs, entrenching tools, and knives being used in hand-to-hand combat in the trenches, rather than bayonets (or swords, which some officers still carried early in the war).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Not sure this goes here but I need a site where I can find pictures of real(istic) armor and weapons from, well, anything from 0-1200 (I think). Can anyone here drop me a link?
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    www.darkagecreations.ca
    www.museumreplicas.com
    www.museumrepro.com
    www.armsofvalor.com

    there are others, but that is about all that really comes to mind.
    Also, Museum Reproductions website might not be a functional link anymore. Due to the firewall I'm currently behind when posting, I can not check.

    EDIT: One google search later, it is confirmed.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2010-09-16 at 08:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    I was talking with a classmate about why axes are a more useful weapon than a military pick, and why the spikes on hammers and axes are just back up, armor penetrating weapons. The conclusion was that axes produced wider wounds, making it easier to kill people with. It does seem an odd phenomena, what with the opposite being true for piercing rapiers and slashing broadswords... but then that's because of the difference. I suspect that there is either no speed difference between a pick and an axe, or that the axe gets a speed advantage. First, am I right? And second, am I missing anything?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    www.darkagecreations.ca
    www.museumreplicas.com
    www.museumrepro.com
    www.armsofvalor.com

    there are others, but that is about all that really comes to mind.
    Also, Museum Reproductions website might not be a functional link anymore. Due to the firewall I'm currently behind when posting, I can not check.

    EDIT: One google search later, it is confirmed.
    Sorry, but no.... As hell.

    Museum replicas and arms of valor seem to be selling cheap to not very cheap, poorly accurate to straight out fantasy stuff like Darksword and others.

    Surely, one can find good stuff among it, but it's quite a search. If one doesn't know what he's searching for, he may find rubbish as well.

    If there's any site to advise, there's always http://www.myarmoury.com/home.html, I guess - a lot of stuff, links to the museums and with reproductions, one usually has info about them and their level of sense.

    Great site generally.

    There are many good sites, but as topic is extremely broad, one will pretty much always treat about just one "piece" of it.

    Such as Late roman armies of circa 400 AD.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    straight out fantasy stuff like Darksword and others.
    Now you got me courious? What might that attrocity be, that you mention it specifically.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Now you got me courious? What might that attrocity be, that you mention it specifically.
    Just as example.

    As far as I know, Darksword builds sturdy, rather overweight swords, with weird, not historical, and not really nice (IMO) look.

    They perfect for cutting stuff in garden, and probably if medieval man saw them, he would at least know what it is.

    By no means very "real", and yet they're probably one of the top stuff at museum replicas...

    Example - weirdish, overbuilt sword, and is described as... Two handed XI Oakeshott sword, "Two handed Norman Sword".

    As Normans weren't using two handed sword, and no one ever found something like "Two handed XI" sword is not historical straight from the project phase, execution could only screw things further.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusWolfe View Post
    I was talking with a classmate about why axes are a more useful weapon than a military pick, and why the spikes on hammers and axes are just back up, armor penetrating weapons. The conclusion was that axes produced wider wounds, making it easier to kill people with. It does seem an odd phenomena, what with the opposite being true for piercing rapiers and slashing broadswords... but then that's because of the difference. I suspect that there is either no speed difference between a pick and an axe, or that the axe gets a speed advantage. First, am I right? And second, am I missing anything?
    One very obvious thing is that axes were generally useful items that people had on them anyway. Picks less so. So your soldiers were more effective with an axe simply because they both had one and had more experience with one.

    Also, against unarmored opponents it's easier to hit with something that has a wider blade... a swing that might have missed with a pick might still connect with the axe.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Sorry, but no.... As hell.
    Got ninja'd there. I was going to point out that most of the reproductions listed there are of exceedingly poor quality.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Hey guys, quick question on firearms, specifically shotguns. It recently came into my head to look into lever-action shotguns, and according to Wiki and a quick Google search, there is such a thing. They don't appear to be very popular and I'm curious why this is the case.

    My theories are that either; A) the lever-action style is significantly/noticeably longer to reload than a pump, or B) the lever-action style is more complex than a pump mechanic, thereby being more easily damaged. However, either of these reasons beg the question of why lever-action rifles were created, as opposed to pump-action styles (which I am aware Remington has a new pump-action style .308).

    Anyone know for certain?

    Another minor question about shotguns, in the movie The Expendables one of the mercs uses a shotgun with a massive chain-style belt. Aside from the weight and potential for accumulated grime to gum up the feeding mechanisms, is there a reason why this is dumb?

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Well from my experience with the shotgun, it is much faster using a pump-action than I imagine it would be using a lever. You can fire shots quite rapidly with a shotgun, allowing the inertia from the recoil to aid in the pump means you're pretty much ready to fire another round just as soon as you're back on target.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    AslanCross's Avatar

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    And yet, depending precisely where you are, the Sword has enormous prestige in the Philippines. The Kris for example, the Barong among the Moro, the Kampilan... just to name a few.



    All true, but the sword remained the principle prestige weapon in India as well, it is the center of the sacred symbol of the Sikhs to this day

    http://library.thinkquest.org/07aug/...ikh_Khanda.png



    Persia is another sword loving culture, the Akinakes in ancient times; the Shamshir from the end of the Middle Ages.

    G.
    Yes, I'm aware of those examples, but I was just citing examples where the heroes used something other than swords. I wasn't saying the sword wasn't any less prestigious.


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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Another minor question about shotguns, in the movie The Expendables one of the mercs uses a shotgun with a massive chain-style belt. Aside from the weight and potential for accumulated grime to gum up the feeding mechanisms, is there a reason why this is dumb?

    Several reasons, aside from the huge hurdles ever mentioned:

    1) Shotgun shells are plastic, not metal. Normal brass gets hot in the breach and when ejected removes some of the heat from the mechanism, acting as kind of a heat sink. Without this, the breach is going to possibly suffer heat management issues, which could cause unreliability, cooking off, or melted ammunition in the breach [!!!!!]. Belt feeding makes it even worse: instead of the weapon firing at a reasonable rate and cooling a bit when reloaded, it's now got a belt-full of ammo, meaning even more heat accumulating at a rapid rate.

    2) Shotgun shells aren't a great shape and don't feed particularly well at times. Combining this with a belt feed is just asking for more reliability issues.

    3) Sheer weight of ammunition.

    4) There are few problems that 200 shotgun shells can solve that 10 can't. People are just as incapacitated when you shoot them with a load of buckshot as they are when you shoot them with ten. Unless one is facing an infinite horde of natives attacking with pointy sticks at 20 feet, a conventional combat shotgun or assault weapon, or LSW/LMG has all the firepower you need.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Well from my experience with the shotgun, it is much faster using a pump-action than I imagine it would be using a lever. You can fire shots quite rapidly with a shotgun, allowing the inertia from the recoil to aid in the pump means you're pretty much ready to fire another round just as soon as you're back on target.
    Ah, I should have mentioned that as well. Still, why did the lever-action style become so much more common in rifles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    Several reasons, aside from the huge hurdles ever mentioned:

    1) Shotgun shells are plastic, not metal. Normal brass gets hot in the breach and when ejected removes some of the heat from the mechanism, acting as kind of a heat sink. Without this, the breach is going to possibly suffer heat management issues, which could cause unreliability, cooking off, or melted ammunition in the breach [!!!!!]. Belt feeding makes it even worse: instead of the weapon firing at a reasonable rate and cooling a bit when reloaded, it's now got a belt-full of ammo, meaning even more heat accumulating at a rapid rate.
    Funny thing, shotgun shells that the military used before the advent of plastic were brass. Civilian ones were typically paper, however those would swell when wet and wouldn't fit into the firearm.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII

    I know someone who can blast through the 14-round magazine of a Henry lever action rifle, very very quickly -- he can also blast off ten rounds out of M1886 lebel bolt-action, operating the bolt left handed, with incredible celerity as well. Let's just say he's very dedicated. :-)

    I suspect there is something to the nature of size of the shells and the particulars of their shape that may mean a pump action is more reliable or robust. Armies generally preferred bolt action rifles over lever-action, so there is more concerned than sheer volume of fire. This is speculation, but I was under the impression that lever actions weren't typically used with heavy loads.

    As for a belt fed automatic shotgun, you really have to ask why you want something belt fed in the first place, and are you willing or even able to handle the consequences.

    I would imagine that you would want a belt when you need or desire continuous firing. The consequences are probably awkward bulk, weight, and/or feed issues. A drum can be used (such as on a WW1 parabellum mount, or sometimes on Mg34/42s), but they typically don't have as many rounds as a full belt. Also, *I think* it takes more time to load a belt, than to replace a magazine. So, while you can fire for longer, when you need to reload it will take a bit longer, and might be a more clunky process. Again, it's just kind of speculation based upon some general knowledge of belt fed guns.

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