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2010-09-29, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Gentles,
In today's news, the US has discontinued bayonet training . I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the matter, and if this is the right place to ask that question.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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2010-09-29, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
As field battles are a thing of the past, you'd get close enough to potentially use a bayonet only inside buildings. And US forces had lots of actual combat experience in such environments, so if they believe bayonets are useless, I think they have very good reasons to do so.
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2010-09-29, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Anyway, my brother and I picked up a hardwood bokken earlier today. Anyone know of any katas I can practice? The initial results I found on the net were pure text and highly technical.
Get a teacher. Kata are nothing without context.
the US has discontinued bayonet training .
As field battles are a thing of the past, you'd get close enough to potentially use a bayonet only inside buildings. And US forces had lots of actual combat experience in such environments, so if they believe bayonets are useless, I think they have very good reasons to do so.
One can roll out the usual comments that it's good aggression and confidence training. They're obvious. It does also teach infantry a someone greater respect for their own weapon system: Soldiers who wave firearms around in a frankly reckless manner suddenly stop doing it when it has a pointy bit on the end that they might take their own eye out with: It's a rather more immediate fear than that of the firearm discharging.
As for being useless: The British Army have fixed bayonets for modern warfare on several occasions in the last 30 years, so it's clearly not a completely pointless martial exercise, either. Unless one considers the British Army green and inexperienced in the field of modern warfare?
What actually disturbs me greatly is the fact that it's being shelved because there isn't time in the 10 week basic training for it. Fair enough: Other skills are more useful and should take priority... BUT:
We aren't at actual war. We have no conscription. There is no need to rush training: Ten weeks isn't enough time to teach a grunt how to effectively fight anyway. Bayonet training hardly takes weeks. Just extend the training schedule. Why is the US Army rushing green troops out of Basic?Last edited by Psyx; 2010-09-29 at 11:23 AM.
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2010-09-29, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- In the T.A.R.D.I.S.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Being in the Army, I can actually understand the dropping of bayonet training from BASIC training (if they moved it to advanced individual training). Most soldiers that aren't SF, Infantry, Military Police, or combat engineers will never use this training. Ever. I've been in 15 years, have been Artillery, and am now a specialized type of engineer, and have not once heard of anyone other than the four aforementioned fields using a bayonet for more than a can opener. Blah, blah, everyone is an Infantryman (or woman) first, sure, whatever. It's not true in the Army. It may fit well into the Marine Corps, but that mode of thought is outdated for the Army. (But they do make nifty can openers. )
EDIT: Heh, I forgot why I came in here in the first place. Has anyone done any independant studies on renaissance firearms? Specifically ranges and chance of blowing up in your hands? I've been able to look at studies on Revolutionary War, Civil War, and American West period pieces, but renaissance-era stuff has somehow escaped me.Last edited by dsmiles; 2010-09-29 at 11:38 AM.
Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2010-09-29, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Concerning Bayonets: I recall that British troops in Afghanistan have used bayonets on at least one occasion, and to great effect. So it seems odd that the United States Army has discontinued the practice, especially for the reason given. I would like to echo Psyx, why are they spending only ten weeks on training?
Concerning Zombies: What would the likely effect of a 12 gauge shotgun firing deer slugs be on our garden variety 'shambler'? I've thought that it ought to do fairly considerable tissue damage, so even if I fail to "Remove the head or destroy the brain." with my first or second shot, the target will be reduced to a fairly-easily disposed of mass of crawling zombie.No levelled malice
Infects one comma in the course I hold;
But flies an eagle flight, bold, and forth on,
Leaving no track behind.
Andrew Eldritch Avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins
Psionic Tricks Handbook (WIP!)
Brainstorming thread for a Basic FAQ (WIP!)
Oh, and you can just call me KA.
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2010-09-29, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
I concur. They may not even be crawling at that point, but I'd still rather use 00 buck shot. More tissue damage = less crawling zombie to clean up later. You could experiment using a pig corpse and a shotgun, or alternatively, I think Mythbusters has already done this with ballistics gel and a shotgun.
Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2010-09-29, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
I would be interested in seeing such statistics myself, but I have low hopes that they will be found. I don't think enough records were kept at that time to provide good statistics - primarily because of the nature of war and soldiering during the renaissance.
Quality could vary considerably, and that would effect reliability, along with how experienced or well trained the soldiers were. Musket accuracy can be affected by how carefully they are loaded, and how good of a patch is used. If the patch is tight fitting, it will eliminate the bouncing effect that tv shows always point out. However, it will also take longer to load, which will become a greater problem as fowling builds up. On the other hand, renaissance musketeers probably fired their muskets fewer times in a given battle than their later counterparts. Also supply of patches and wadding could be irregular. I read somewhere that troops were known to stuff grass down their barrels to serve as wadding.
That said, the ranges typically provided for Renaissance era muskets are pretty similar to what is given for later muskets. Accurate to about 50 yards against individual targets, and 100-150 for massed targets. This may simply be people applying knowledge of similar weapons from later periods. Snipers did exist, and are claimed to have picked people off at longer ranges than 50 yards. I suspect that the 50 yard claim is based on typical training and skill levels combined with weapon limitations, and not simply weapon limitation.
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2010-09-29, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Nearly anything will be useful at some point over 30 years. However, you can't possibly pack with you everything that might possibly be handy at some time.
Bayonets are very seldomly used for their intended purpose. Knives are handy, but mostly as tools. So, you're much better off either using that weight, space, and training time for something more generally applicable. Also, it's worth noting that with a bayonet fixed, your accuracy frequently changes significantly. Definitely a major downside.
Personally, being air force, we haven't had bayonet training in basic for ages. Well, at least, not went I went through it, it might have been added when they increased the length.
And basic training is just that...the basics. Most people get quite a bit more training in their specific field. Years, in some cases. There is quite enough mostly pointless stuff in basic that'll never be used by anyone in the practical military. No need to add more.
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2010-09-29, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
How much time do the armed forces waste marching around in formation? They don't do close order marching on the battlefield anymore . . . I bet that's next on the chopping block! ;-)
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2010-09-29, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
What stopped the Luftwaffe from destroying the Red Army when it was pushing into Germany?
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2010-09-29, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2005
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- Laughing with the sinners
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Bayonet training will still, I'm sure, be a part of Infantry training. Most people who go through Basic go into a specialty that isn't close combat, so spending a few days hacking up dummies might be better used learning how to avoid IEDs or deal with locals.
I like the bayonet. It comes in handy up close, like house clearing, which we are doing a lot of in the current campaigns, and the training is good for building strength, agility and aggressiveness into your troops.
Plus, halfway through your 12 weeks at Parris Island, you really want to stab and chop the @#$% out of something, and beat your fellow recruits with pugil sticks.
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2010-09-29, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
No levelled malice
Infects one comma in the course I hold;
But flies an eagle flight, bold, and forth on,
Leaving no track behind.
Andrew Eldritch Avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins
Psionic Tricks Handbook (WIP!)
Brainstorming thread for a Basic FAQ (WIP!)
Oh, and you can just call me KA.
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2010-09-29, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Metro Manila, Philippines
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Eberron Red Hand of Doom Campaign Journal. NOW COMPLETE!
Sakuya Izayoi avatar by Mr. Saturn. Caella sig by Neoseph.
"I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome." -- Marriclay
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2010-09-29, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
- Location
- On a lake, in Minnesota
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2010-09-29, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Re: Bayonets:
It's not like bayonet training is being dropped entirely, it's just being dropped from basic, i.e. the universal training that every Army soldier has to go through. The fact is that bayonet training is useful in a specific set of predictable combat circumstances that are encountered somewhat often by soldiers in certain specialties and almost never by soldiers not in those specialties. Seems like the absolute definition of a skill that should be taught in the training for those specialties, not in basic.
Re: Luftwaffe vs. Red Army:
Where to even begin? Even at the height of its strength, the Luftwaffe wasn't able to destroy the Red Army (though it came pretty close in the opening days after Barbarossa kicked off). By the time the tide turned in the East, the Luftwaffe was plagued by fuel and spare part shortages and was mostly devoted to defending German cities from the RAF Bomber Command and US 8th Air Force. Even if the Luftwaffe had decided to give the Allied bombers a free hand over German skies, it'd not clear that they could have defeated the Soviet Air Force decisively enough to give them a free hand over the battlefield, after all, the Soviets were majorly outproducing the Nazis in basically every area of war materiel, including planes, by the end of the war.
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2010-09-30, 05:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
There wasn't any Luftwaffe left! By D-Day the Allied had air superiority.
It's simply impossible to launch effective airstrikes if your aircraft get shot down 10 minutes after take-off. And remember that by this point in the war, allied fighter cover easily extended over the whole of Germany.
Allied strategic bombing trashed the industrial capabilities of the nation, and a lot of airpower was allocated to air defence. Allied air forces were doing their best to destroy any remaining aircraft the Germans had, to the extent that a vast number of them were destroyed on the ground by roving interdiction missions, striking at air bases. There were few [German] planes left capable of such missions [Air support].
The Luftwaffe was a hollow shell of its former glory, with ground crews being handed rifles and assigned last-ditch infantry tasks.Last edited by Psyx; 2010-09-30 at 05:01 AM.
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2010-09-30, 05:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
A hole! A big hole, but still a hole. Sadly, it won't remove the head, but might blow a nice big chunk of skull off the back, if you're lucky.
I'd imagine that if our zombie was a little decomposed then it might be more effective, but I don't really know how well rotting meat handles ballistic tests!
00 buckshot at close range results in a 'rat hole' wound: a hole that looks like it's been chewed by rats. The shot simply doesn't have enough range to spread, causing pretty similar effects to a heavy single slug, with the wound diameter dependant on range.
It's back to the 'bullets aren't designed to blow heads off' thing again, really.
It kind of depends how the zombies are 'controlled'. If they still 'need' their brain, then even a pistol round to the brain stem will shut them down straight away.
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2010-09-30, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
A knife is always handy. Even if it's not for stabbing people with.
There is quite enough mostly pointless stuff in basic that'll never be used by anyone in the practical military. No need to add more.
For me it's just a poor reflection of standards. Not got 'time' to fit in all the stuff a modern soldier needs to know? Extend training. Simple as. Be the best.
Modern warfare is fought in newspapers. Once a nation's People see enough body bags, they've had enough, regardless of the actual state of the campaign. It's happened time and time again. So the goal of warfare for the US must always be to heavily prioritise anything that reduces their own bodycount. If that means an extra 2 days MIGHT remotely save someone's skin, it's really worthwhile.
And we all know that being able to use a bayonet really isn't what the training is about, anyway. Aggression during FIBUA and lack of 'squeamishness' is really quite important in our current campaigns.
To impress the ladies. Duh!
Dress uniform doesn't walk itself!
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2010-09-30, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- kendal, england
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
you yanks are taught to face away form the blast?
the brit drill is to lie down, helmet towards the blast, letting it take the shock wave, and stick your hands on your balls to keep them out of the way.
though, I must note that my nucular training conisted of a grand total of two hours of lectures. most of my CBRN training was focused on chemical drills, which makes sense as a lot more of our oppenents have chemical weapons (saddam hussien, for example. we know he had them pior to the 1st gulf war, becuase he used them on the kurds and agianst the iranians), plus it has some theoretical useage outside of battle (dealing with chemical spills mainly)
The birtish army spends 14 weeks on basic training, and exactly one afternoon on bayonet training. I am sure the infantry go though more in their phase 2 training (along with how to use any firearm other than a L85)
How much time do the armed forces waste marching around in formation? They don't do close order marching on the battlefield anymore . . . I bet that's next on the chopping block! ;-)
the drill instructors coruse in the birtish army is still one of the most promotion-freindly courses you can do. I am fairly sure i spent more time on the drill square in basic than i did on the rifle range.
and don't get me started on the Guards...Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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2010-09-30, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
No; I'm English. It was just a very, very long while ago, and I found it hard to pay attention to any lecture that started 'when you see a nuclear weapon go off nearby...'
It was complete garbage. Stabbing a sandbag for an hour would have been far more useful.
and don't get me started on the Guards...
Are Forward Assists on the IW loading drill in or out this year? They always seemed to be changing their mind about it...Last edited by Psyx; 2010-09-30 at 06:49 AM.
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2010-09-30, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- kendal, england
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
cool. what unit where you part of?
I've never understood how they stay so shiny.
Are Forward Assists on the IW loading drill in or out this year? They always seemed to be changing their mind about it...Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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2010-09-30, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
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- The Edge of the World
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Originally Posted by Psyx
We (I'm MSUOTC, so as close to being a civvie without actually being one), were taught to always forward assist every time, in every circumstance. If anyone ever called us on it, to say we were unsure if the working parts were full forward.
Originally Posted by Psyx
Originally Posted by Stormbringer
And thats the major reason to include bayonet training, It builds aggression, and fighting spirit.Necromunda Total War:IC
Necromunda Total War:OC
And I'll dance to Tom Payne's bones,
Dance to Tom Payne's bones,
Dance in the oldest boots I own,
to the rhythm of Tom Payne's bones.
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2010-09-30, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Correction, they were fielding more in every area of war material. Without lend-lease, the red army would have utterly lost the war in the air, and this would have arguably put their entire war effort at risk. Lend-lease was ridiculously huge in specialist things, like aviation supplies. I don't recall the details, but for some things, the US was providing 80%+ of the supply used. Supply moving stuff, like railway machinery, was even more drastic.
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2010-09-30, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- In the T.A.R.D.I.S.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
I was looking more toward hard numbers. With an average wadding and patch, and a taget as big as a barn, at what distance does a renaissance-era long-gun stop blowing a hole in the target? A hand-cannon? I wish Gunney Ermey would cover more renaissance-era firearms... He covered the blunderbus, though, and that made my day. Ah, medieval shotguns...those were the days...
Originally Posted by The Doctor
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2010-09-30, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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2010-09-30, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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2010-09-30, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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2010-09-30, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Well there is also this 15th Century manual, but as previously stated, it deals with poll-axes... which are axes, just on a really long haft.
G.
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2010-09-30, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Denmark
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2010-09-30, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VII
Although it's not fair to pretend that anyone except the Soviet Union won the war against Germany. The rest of the Allies helped a bit, I guess...
cool. what unit where you part of?
I had a CR of 4, apparently.
In, Out, in Out, Forward assist, and check your change leaver, that's what it's all about.
In other news, I'm taking a trip down memory lane by buying myself an old Landrover tomorrow.