Is the ring of sustenance OP?

[Bobmufin52]

Hey forumers, I have a quick question about the ring of sustenance.

My player wants to get the ring very soon, mainly for the effect of getting 8 hours of rest only in 2 hours. He said he wants this because that means he can gain back all of his spells in 2 hours instead of 8.

Now what’s confusing me is that I’ve seen other magic do the whole need only x hours of rest to gain effects of 8 hours of rest, but they all had a part saying you still need 8 hours rest to regain spells; all except or the ring of sustenance.

So my question is doses that make the ring OP, or is it properly priced and such so that you can have only 2 hours’ rest to regain spells?

[Malfunctioned]

Nope, the ring doesn't let you regain spells quicker. The text for wizards and other spellcasters states that you need 8 hours of rest to regain spells. That's time for preparing spells and gathering components, things like that. The ring wouldn't help for these.

[ericgrau]

It doesn't let you get your spells back in 2 hours. You always need 8 hours whether you need to sleep or not. Even elves need 8 hours, not 4.

To the thread title, no it is not an OP item.

[Karsh]

Unless you rule that Elves can refresh spells after only 4 hours of meditation, the Ring of Sustenance does not allow you to re-prepare spells after 2 hours of rest.

If your player really wants something like that, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll from Complete Mage does it in 1 hour once every 48 hours for 3000 gp. Given that, the argument that the Ring of Sustenance does this an unlimited number of times per day every 2 hours falls apart.

Also, remind your player that any spells cast in the last 8 hours still count against the total spells per day, even with the Fortifying Bedroll.

[Malfunctioned]

Also, a quote from the SRD.

If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

[Edge of Dreams]

Another way to look at it is to realize that you need 8 hours of REST to prepare spells, but nowhere does it say you need 8 hours of SLEEP per night. A ring of sustenance reduces the amount of SLEEP you need to function without fatigue, but it has no effect on class features which require a certain amount of REST.

[The White Knight]

Since you didn't specify what kind of caster we're talking about, it is also worth noting that Divine casters don't need rest at all to prepare spells and instead receive their spells by praying at a specific time each day. Indeed, a Divine caster capable of casting Lesser Restoration need never sleep at all, from what I can tell.

[Tyndmyr]

Sleep is a type of rest.

The ring reads " so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep"

Therefore, it works.

However, you still can only prepare spells once every 24 hours, and the limitation on spell slots you've recently cast from still applies. All he's really accomplished is ensure that he's on guard duty for part of the night. Not overpowered.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sleep is a type of rest.

The ring reads " so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep"

Therefore, it works.

No it doesn't.

You have to rest for eight hours, even if you don't need to sleep that long.

[Shenanigans]

I've always read it (and ruled it) that a wizard (or whatever) still needs to be resting during the six hours, but can be awake. They can't really be walking the perimeter "on watch" but they can be awake, and hence make unpenalized Spot and Listen checks.

[Tyndmyr]

No it doesn't.

You have to rest for eight hours, even if you don't need to sleep that long.

This depends on the idea that sleeping is not actually resting. This is...counterintuitive.

It also does not mesh well with the way in which the SRD uses the terms.

"
Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."

[Yuki Akuma]

Sleeping is resting, but even if the Wizard for some reason doesn't need eight hours of sleep, he still has to rest for eight consecutive hours to prepare his spells.

It's written right there in the rules! Specifically because of elves and Rings of Sustenance!

This isn't some magic item printed in a later book which they didn't take into account - it's printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Edit:

Rest
...
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

This bit! Right here!

[tenshiakodo]

The fact that sleep =/= rest really busts the verisimilitude of the game for a lot of people. But it's a necessary rule, otherwise undead spellcasters or warforged would quickly make a mockery of any 3.5 campaign.

If it helps, you can always think of it as if you're mentally exhausted; your body is awake, but your mind just wants to sit in front of the TV and vegetate.

Alternately, here's a healthy dose of DM doubletalk for you:

"I don't think you appreciate what's really going on here when you go to cast spells. You're drawing power from other planes of reality, sources of power that include realms of ever-shifting chaos, the brains of lobotomized gods, and the uneffable certainty that beyond this fragile veil you call reality, there exists something vastly older, more powerful, and indescribably alien. And every time you cast a spell, invoking it's ancient names, it LOOKS at you.

Taking that power and encoding it into a magical formula that you can pull out of your head whenever you want to doesn't just tax your body, it taxes your sanity. Your very soul. Your existence, as you know it. Now, if you want to risk all of that just to get a few more spells off in a 24-hour period, be my guest.

Just remember this. That which is not dead can eternal lie. And with strange aeons, even death may die."

[Tyndmyr]

Sleeping is resting, but even if the Wizard for some reason doesn't need eight hours of sleep, he still has to rest for eight consecutive hours to prepare his spells.

It's written right there in the rules! Specifically because of elves and Rings of Sustenance!

This isn't some magic item printed in a later book which they didn't take into account - it's printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

It's NOT written right there in the rules.

It says you need eight hours of sleep is what you need to prepare spells. Therefore, if you "gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep", you have satisfied that. Done deal.

It does not say that you no longer need to sleep...it says that you gain the benefits AS THOUGH YOU HAD SLEPT. That's what matters.

[Yuki Akuma]

Again.

Rest
...
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Read. Be enlightened.

[Mnemnosyne]

Sleeping is resting, but even if the Wizard for some reason doesn't need eight hours of sleep, he still has to rest for eight consecutive hours to prepare his spells.

It's written right there in the rules! Specifically because of elves and Rings of Sustenance!

This isn't some magic item printed in a later book which they didn't take into account - it's printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

If sleeping is resting, then the ring of sustenance counts as 8 hours of rest in only 2 hours. Note that the description of the ring specifically says "needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep." It does not say that they only need to sleep for 2 hours in order to prevent fatigue or any other terminology. It says they gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

If it said 'the character only needs to sleep for two hours a night' or something along those lines, then you would be correct, but since you actually gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep...

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm finding it difficult how one can parse

Rest
...
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

as meaning "but if you have an ability that lets you gain the benefits of eight hours of sleep in less time, go nuts!".

Elves also gain the benefits of eight hours of sleep by meditating for four - should they be able to prepare their spells after only four hours? Because they quite specifically cannot.

[Tyndmyr]

Again.



Read. Be enlightened.

So? It does not negate your body's need for sleep.

The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

See? You gain the benefits as if you had slept 8 straight hours. Therefore, the clause you quoted never becomes relevant.

Incidentally, the "and mind" portion contradicts Tend's refluffing.

[Susano-wo]

Just...no. You gain the effects of sleep, which, in game are: not getting fatigued.
The requirements of gaining new spells are that you must rest for 8hrs, even if you don't need the sleep.

Rest=rectangle
sleep= square

[Ravens_cry]

Think of it this way, all sleep is rest, but not all rest is sleep. It explicitly says you need 8 hours of rest to regain spells, and only needing 2 hours of sleep does nothing to change that.

[Tyndmyr]

Just...no. You gain the effects of sleep, which, in game are: not getting fatigued.
The requirements of gaining new spells are that you must rest for 8hrs, even if you don't need the sleep.

Rest=rectangle
sleep= square

No, the requirement is, by raw, you need 8 hrs sleep.

If you do not sleep, you instead need 8 hrs rest. For those that DO need to sleep, this clause is obviously never relevant.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, the requirement is, by raw, you need 8 hrs sleep.

No, the requirement, by RAW, is that you need eight hours of rest. Sleep is just one way of resting and something most people have to do anyway.

[Tyndmyr]

Neither the DMG nor the SRD use the word rest in the universal requirement. The exact requirement is "eight hours of sleep".

The rest clause only is triggered in the case where the individual does not need to sleep. This clause is say, relevant for warforged and elves(who trance instead of sleeping). It is not relevant for those who still need to sleep.

I have quoted where RAW requires 8 hours of sleep. By all means, do so for rest, and explain how, within the rules of english, the sentence still applies. Note the existance of the "if" at the beginning of the sentence regarding rest.

[Zhalath]

I thought that the rule was that you needed 8 hours of not-doing-anything. Like, you need 8 hours to pull magic into your brain. I suppose if you could self-accelerate time, you could acquire 8 hours without 8 hours actually passing (Persisted Time Stop with Incantatrix, mebbe). Like, with elves and elan, who trance for 4 hours, sure, they're no longer tired, but they still need to sit and gather energy.

Arcane magic is kind of like drivers ed. It doesn't matter what loophole you find to get equivalent knowledge, you still need to fulfill the hourly component. Otherwise, no fly and no drive.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have quoted where RAW requires 8 hours of sleep. By all means, do so for rest, and explain how, within the rules of english, the sentence still applies. Note the existance of the "if" at the beginning of the sentence regarding rest.

No. There's no point, you're not going to accept anything anyway.

I'll just be safe in the knowledge that WotC's official stance is that you need eight hours of rest, with or without actually sleeping, to regain spells and leave this thread alone.

Pretend this is a victory for yourself if you like, I don't care.

[Binks]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

It's not open to debate, it's discussed in the official 3.5 FAQ. Ring of Sus (and the Elf trance) does not allow you to refresh spells in 2h. Sorry, but refreshing arcane spells is not a 'benefit of sleeping' but something separate that is also gained in 8h of rest.

[Zaydos]

The Rules Compendium does change 2 words in the description of what an arcane caster must do to prepare spells. The first usage of sleep is replaced with rest; also they removed the word fairly before strenuous.

[Shenanigans]

The rest clause only is triggered in the case where the individual does not need to sleep. This clause is say, relevant for warforged and elves(who trance instead of sleeping). It is not relevant for those who still need to sleep.

I would argue that you can interpret "does not need to sleep for some reason" to include "does not need to sleep for eight hours." The more inclusive wording of the introductory clause allows for characters who don't ever need to sleep, such as elves, and characters who don't need to sleep as much, such as those wearing a ring of sustenance. This is the whole "greater includes the lesser" principle at work. At times, the ring of sustenance ("some reason") allows a character to "not need to sleep." If the intention was just to include characters who don't require any sleep, then they could have written it as "does not ever need to sleep for some reason."

Also, with the way the elven trance description was written, it seems like designer intention was to limit casters in this way.

EDIT:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

It's not open to debate, it's discussed in the official 3.5 FAQ. Ring of Sus (and the Elf trance) does not allow you to refresh spells in 2h. Sorry, but refreshing arcane spells is not a 'benefit of sleeping' but something separate that is also gained in 8h of rest.

Ummm..what he said.

[Starbuck_II]

Just...no. You gain the effects of sleep, which, in game are: not getting fatigued.
The requirements of gaining new spells are that you must rest for 8hrs, even if you don't need the sleep.

Rest=rectangle
sleep= square

Um, where does no sleep list fatigue in the books? i don't mean realism, but RAW.

[shadowkiller]

Ok you're the DM if you want you're campaign to run faster and have higher power spellcasters go ahead and allow it, otherwise don't allow it. If you do allow it and ever need that player to have less spells per day make a time sensitive objective so the caster does not have time to rest or do a surprise goblin raid or whatever is right for their level to interrupt spell preparation.