3.5 Shortsword and Buckler

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Any way to make shortsword and buckler a viable fighting option? might be casting spells with the free hand, so TWF is iffy. Im looking for any feats or item enhancements that might help.

Thanks in advance you all!

[Toliudar]

Lots of maneuvers from tome of battle aren't reliant on big strength damage, and might work for you. Rogue levels will give you the ability for sneak attack damage.

[Eldariel]

ToB maneuvers, really. They get you damage regardless of how you wield. Though Somatic Weaponry would allow for TWF, too, and you could Two-Hand without any feats since by RAW it's a free action to take one hand off the weapon for spellcasting.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Do not have Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle is not allowed by the DM.... so either way, kinda screwed on that.

Also, Animated shields don't exist. Just by the way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why shortsword? Longsword is in every way mechanically superior, unless you wish to Finesse.

Now, Longsword + Buckler is very viable as a gish build. Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5 is one method, Fighter1/Wiz5 is another way to start it off. Hexblade is a straight option by itself.

So it really depends on what you want to do

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Longsword is not in every way superior. a longsword cannot be used in a grapple. A shortsword can. A longsword has one mechanical advantage... an average of 1 point of damage per hit.

And yes, finesse is a consideration. I asked how shortsword and buckler can be viable for these reasons.

EDIT: A shooting Star Ranger (substitute level 4) with Sword of the Arcane Order is the character by the way. All from Champions of Valor. Strength is 14. Dex is 20.

EDIT 2: by the way Shneeky, I am a fan of your CW Samurai build. Never has a tier 6 class done impressed me as much.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Longsword is not in every way superior. a longsword cannot be used in a grapple. A shortsword can. A longsword has one mechanical advantage... an average of 1 point of damage per hit.

And yes, finesse is a consideration. I asked how shortsword and buckler can be viable for these reasons.

EDIT: A shooting Star Ranger (substitute level 4) with Sword of the Arcane Order is the character by the way. All from Champions of Valor. Strength is 14. Dex is 20.

EDIT 2: by the way Shneeky, I am a fan of your CW Samurai build. Never has a tier 6 class done impressed me as much.

I'll be blunt... if you are in a grapple, you have more important things to do than attack with a shortsword. Like getting the heck away from it. Or finding some way to get Freedom of Movement. Weapon Finesse is good if you have some method of damage with your weapon, such as sneak attack, or if your Str does not factor into damage output, such as with a SLA or touch attack spell.

I'm not familiar with the details of either of the classes you posted. I'll have to look them up. If you've got some way to channel spells, then shortsword with weapon finess will be a good delivery vector.

Remember, only get a +1 on your buckler, and use Magic Vestments to further increase Shield bonus to AC. However, did you know that Fortification is a perfectly viable enhancement for a buckler? Yea, your buckler is fortified, so you have a 50% chance of ignoring crits and sneak attacks which get around said buckler in the first place. Go figure.

Also, are you wanting offense or defense? If you want Defense, then a shortsword with the Defending quality, plus Weapon Expertise, will make you nearly impossible to hit in combat. For offense, you need some additional damage to stack onto your attack.

Thanks for the compliment on the CW Samurai build. The sucessor actually only had 10 levels, rather than all 13. A one level dip in Rogue with Able Learner before he goes into Samurai lets him class out into Exemplar to Take 10 on Intimidate checks, giving a flat 40ish DC on the Character Level check. At level 13. Ronin caps out the build to give more SA against his Cowering opponents.

[Optimator]

Not being able to power attack with the short sword is another minus. Score one for long sword.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Shooting Star substitution levels are sub levels for ranger, not really its own class. Basically, it trades out animal companion for extra spell slots and caster level equal to 1/2 +2. (at least, the level 4 substitution level.) mixed with Practiced Spellcaster... and you got a caster level of 16 at level 20.

Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat available to both Paladins and Rangers of level 4 or higher. It allows you to prepare wizard spells in your Ranger/Paladin Spell slots, from a "borrowed" spellbook, or your own.

"However, did you know that Fortification is a perfectly viable enhancement for a buckler? Yea, your buckler is fortified, so you have a 50% chance of ignoring crits and sneak attacks which get around said buckler in the first place. Go figure."

this was my plan exactly. Maybe throw spell reflecting on there too. Heard a good story about a Paladin who had a Spell Reflecting buckler, that everyone including the DM forgot about....

"Also, are you wanting offense or defense?"

I don't care either way. I want to stick with Ranger to get the most out of my Sub levels, Practiced Spellcaster, and Sword of the Arcane Order Feat. That doesn't leave much prospect at getting extra damage, at least not without damaging my Caster level. So defense I guess? haha.

"The sucessor actually only had 10 levels, rather than all 13. A one level dip in Rogue with Able Learner before he goes into Samurai lets him class out into Exemplar to Take 10 on Intimidate checks, giving a flat 40ish DC on the Character Level check. At level 13. Ronin caps out the build to give more SA against his Cowering opponents."

I figured you could do something with the Ronin Prestige class when I read your Sig before I even joined Giant in the Playground. Cowered opponents and Ronin SA is just begging to be abused. I wouldnt have thought of Exemplar though for the take 10.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, your problem with taking advantage of Ranger Casting is that they only get up to 4th level spells... even if you CAN use Wiz/Sorc, this is something of a problem. So, here's some viable uses:

* Greater magic Weapon. Your +1 shortsword is now +5.
* Haste. Party buff, everyone will thank you for it.
* Slow. Area-effect debuff. Really handy to have.
* Glitterdust. See above, plus outlining invisible opponents
* Wraithstrike. All attacks are now touch attacks. Have fun with ignoring armor.
* Orb of Sound. This is your no-SR blaster spell.
* Lesser Orb of Sound. This is the 1st level version of the above.
* Nerveskitter. +5 to your initiative for a 1st level spell? Sign me up!
* Knock. You're a better box man than the Rogue.

However, the problem still remains... how are you going to stack damage on your sword to make it a viable attack? Or would you prefer to use it to simply threaten to provide flanking for allies?

Defending on your shortsword plus Greater Magic Weapon gives you 5 free AC.
Cloak of Displacement. It gives you a concealment miss chance. Thus you are no longer an eligible target for sneak attack. Cheaper than Heavy Fortification, and handier with the miss chance tacked on.

Arrow Deflection is a good one for shields. Ignore the first projectile shot at you per round. Handy.

Shadowed and Silent Moves are good enhancements if you plan on using the Hide and Move Silently skills which are on your skill list. Replaces Cloak and Boots of Elvinkind.

One advantage of Shortsword is that it is considered to be piercing, thus eligible for the Wounding property. Con damage per hit? Yes, please.

Spell Storing is very handy for you if you plan on being a Gish. Load up something like Shivering Touch, then launch it at your opponent through your sword. This could take advantage of your high BAB and Weapon Finesse.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Excellent advice Shneeky. The party consists of a Drow Wizard focused on Necromancy, Yuanti pureblood Sorcerer, Half-Nymph Ranger, Tiefling Favored Soul of Nerull, and a half Dragon Cleric, with 28 STR, a greatsword and Power Attack.

As you can see, Im not worried about dealing damage or being the primary Caster. Being a Defensive, secondary combatant and support caster sounds just fine to me.

Wounding and Spell storing... I thought wounding was just HP bleed damage in 3.5? gotta look it up, I guess...

Spell Storing... Take a page out of the Duskblade book, and Vampiric Touch, and Shocking Grasp both look pretty good...

EDIT: You were right about wounding being CON damage.... that does look good.

[Animefunkmaster]

This is another reason the long sword is superior:

One-Handed

A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or ½ his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

With say power attack (true strike), or a reasonable strength you can change from defense to offense by going two handed. You have a free hand with the buckler, that seems to be the immediate synergy. I will second the suggestion for the gish vs ranger sub levels. You don't need to waste a feat on practiced spell caster, you'll have more spells and higher level and your class abilities will all be streamlined.

Try this:
Fighter 1/Focused Specialist Transmutation Wizard6/Spell Sword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
If you have/allowed to use eberron five nations and featured in the excerpt, the Knight's phantom is pretty snazy replacement for eldritch knight.

Note: There is a UA variant that gives up the metamagic feat and scribe scroll for fighter feats.

This will give you a BAB of 17 and 9th level arcane spells. You can mix up your offense or defense based on your spell choices. Taking Power Attack and Arcane Strike is pretty much all you'll need for combat. That will give you the most versatility and ultimately, fun.

[gorfnab]

For feats:
Twin Sword Style - PGtF
Two Weapon Fighting tree - free with enough ranger levels
Weapon Finesse
Improved Buckler Defense
Somatic Weaponry - CM
Nemesis - Combine with the Arcane Hunter ACF (CM) to find more sources of spellbooks

Shadow Blade - ToB - sadly you said you can't use this source two levels of Swordsage at levels either 7, 8, 9, or 10 would mix nicely with ranger. It would give you Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand Weapons (short swords), Assassins Stance for sneak attack, and the Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons.

Levels of Scout + Swift Hunter + 1 level of Barbarian (Pounce ACF, CC) could get you some much needed damage options. However this would loose out some spellcasting unless you decide to go with Mystic Ranger (Dragon #336, combos very nicely with Sword of the Arcane Order).

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Sorry if I hurt any feeling, or bruise egos, but my post disappeared when I almost finished it, so this is Take 2, and I don't want to spend as much time as I did on Take 1.

"This is another reason the long sword is superior:"

I've been playing 3.x since 2000, when it first came out. I know how longswords, power attack, and true strike work. This is not the topic I created this thread to discuss. I asked about Shortswords and Bucklers. I pointed out one mechanical advantage that shortswords have. I never said they were better, or even equal to longswords.

"Knight's phantom is pretty snazy replacement for eldritch knight."

I am well aware of the awesomeness that is Knight Phantom. I too, believe it is better than the Eldritch Knight. Someone will disagree. However, I am not playing a Knight Phantom with a longsword. I am playing a level 4 Ranger with the level 4 Shooting Star sub level. I took a flaw and have Sword of the Arcane Order. He has a shortsword, a buckler, and a longbow. He has Weapon Finesse. Again, I asked about Shortswords and Bucklers, not advice on my build. I already have a thread for that. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168283

"Mystic Ranger (Dragon #336, combos very nicely with Sword of the Arcane Order)"

Again, my character is what my character is, and he is not a Mystic Ranger. Yes, Mystic Ranger works well with Sword of the Arcane Order. However, I find the full caster thing up until level 10 cheesy. I know its not even tier 2, (maybe mid tier 3) But i don't like it. I'll stick with my Shooting Star sub levels and Sword of the Arcane Order, which were designed to work together, and do just fine for my purposes.

Again, not trying to be rude, impolite, or otherwise curt. Thank you all for the advice, but lets keep the advice pertinent to the question I posed: What can I do to make a shortsword and buckler viable?

[Leon]

Where is the Shooting Star Sublevel from?

[Greenish]

Where is the Shooting Star Sublevel from?

Champions of Valor.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Shooting Star Substitution levels are from Champions of Valor, page 50, I believe. Basically, the best level is 4, where you lose your animal companion, but gain extra spell slots, and your caster level becomes 1/2 ranger levels +2. (normally its just 1/2) When combined with Practiced Spellcaster, you get a ranger with a caster level of 16, instead of the normal 10, at level 20.

With Sword of the Arcane Order, you can cast Wizard spells in place of your Ranger spells. This Feat is on page 34 of Champions of Valor.

Essentially, with everything, you can cast up to level 4 wizard and/or ranger spells as a caster level 16 magic user, with the same amount of spell slots as a wizard.

EDIT: swordsage'd by Greenish!

[Leon]

Thankyou, did a brief google of it and all i found was this thread , the light Infantry one and two others from other forums that didnt mention its origin.

Im always interested in class variants for all classes - some of my favourite PCs have been heavy on the variants.

[Person_Man]

Short sword and Buckler is a weird combo. Two short swords I could help you with. Short sword and large shield as well. But I got nothing for shortsword and buckler.

[true_shinken]

Get Dragon Magazine 336. Be a Mystic Ranger. Enjoy it.

[Greenish]

Get Dragon Magazine 336. Be a Mystic Ranger. Enjoy it.

"Mystic Ranger (Dragon #336, combos very nicely with Sword of the Arcane Order)"

Again, my character is what my character is, and he is not a Mystic Ranger.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to believe.

[Gavinfoxx]

How about two short swords and buckler?

Or short sword, dagger, and buckler?

Or two cutlasses and buckler?

Or rapier, short sword, and buckler?

[Leon]

Assasination weapon enhancement from Cityscape Web extra 3.
Adds 1d6 damage to a target that meets all the normal conditions to be sneak attacked.

Is a plus one cost and also the user is never at risk when applying poison to the weapon and increases the Poison DCs equal to the weapons enhancement bonus.

[gdiddy]

I usually house rule that ss nd buckler gets a circumstnce bonus to AC when fighting opponents with reach weapons, but thats based on reality and is only a house rule.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"Assasination weapon enhancement from Cityscape Web extra 3."

Thats a new one. Wasn't aware of it, the closest thing I know of to that is the Deadly Precision enhancement from... Magic Item Compendium I believe? adds 2D6 to sneak attack.

Still, it doesnt help overly much as a straight Ranger. I'll keep it in mind though for use perhaps with my next Rogue.

[Leon]

Assassination doesnt add to sneak attack - just adds the d6 in situation that a target could be sneak attacked like flanking.

[Greenish]

Assassination doesnt add to sneak attack - just adds the d6 in situation that a target could be sneak attacked like flanking.

And the free Poison Use & increase to the poison's DC (those are rare) are arguably greater perks.

[ericgrau]

Shortsword + buckler would make a good rogue. A MW buckler has no non-proficiency penalty and helps the fragility issue that rogues have. In fact, it yields more damage-before-you-drop than TWF.

The shortsword only has a slight disadvantage compared to a rapier, and is better for TWF because you can wield one in each hand and only need one weapon focus (a major feat for the mid BAB rogue btw). So maybe you could be a rogue that switches back and forth between sword and buckler and TWF depending on the situation. For example, depending if the monster has melee (=> buckler), depending if you have greater invisibility (=> TWF), etc.