Eternal healing, or how to get the DM mad

[WarKitty]

So let's see if I've gotten this straight:

A continuously functioning necklace of lesser vigor is worth 8000 gp. Which means it can be crafted for 4000gp. Our 8-person party just hit level 4; I have craft wondrous item.

Does this mean for 4000gp and a little bit of XP, I can make a necklace that takes care of all our healing for the next several levels without casting a single spell? And should I beware of flying DMG's?

[Glimbur]

a) The guidelines for custom items are exactly that. Guidelines. The DM does not have to allow this to happen, and it requires DM approval.

b) Unlimited out of combat healing is not really a big deal. A couple of wands of lesser vigor will also take care of your out of combat healing for the next several levels and don't cost all that much.

[Feliks878]

@op

Possibly. It depends on how your DM interprets the rules on creating magic items using that chart in the back of the DMG.

Like researching and creating new spells, creating new items should also be something you talk with your DM about rather then just writing on your character sheet. Some don't allow it at all, other's by situation, and some let anything fly. I know I was in the third category for a while until players started making items that did something very similar to existing items for a fraction of the cost. Then I started making them bring me everything they wanted to create this way (specifically using Table 7-33 to estimate the price) and it had to be approved by me. In my next game I'm just going to disallow it altogether, at least at first.

[Zaydos]

The guidelines in the book

1) state that they are just guidelines

2) encourages the DM to look at other items and see if they're balanced

3) says to jack up the price or just say no if they feel the item is too powerful.

So no DM should feel they have to allow any custom item or price it in a way that makes it cheap enough for them to feel mad about it.

[Forged Fury]

I'm assuming this is a joke. If not...

As always, the DM is the ultimate arbiter of what is allowed and what isn't. This is pretty similar to the attempt to create a [Insert Item] of continuous True Striking for 2000gp.

If something seems too good, the general rule of thumb is to find a similar item and see how the pricing compares. A Ring of Regeneration is a somewhat similar version of what you're suggestiong. While it can regrow lost limbs (a dubious benefit given the abstract combat rules of D&D), it also only gives you (essentially) Fast Healing .002/Level. It costs 90,000gp.

So yeah, probably a little underpriced.

[aeauseth]

As a DM I wouldn't mind an out of combat healing item like you suggest. Just means I can throw more monsters at the party.

However, if this magic item you speak of is going to make the healbot or other healer feel less usful THEN I have a problem. I dislike other players intentially making magic items so that they no longer need to rely on a party member. All players need to feel useful. Best to have the healer craft/buy such an item.

As to custom crafting? Those guidlines are SO broken. The low level spells are just too cheap. Eternal Pro Evil? Eternal Shield Spell? This is a completely sperate topic, so I'll just end this disussion here.

[WarKitty]

Think I've got it. My DM's already allowed lesser vigor and wands thereof, so I'll probably just point out that amount of gold would give us 10 fully charged wands of lesser vigor. We're functioning without a cleric of any sort and with a lot of melee characters, so healing is at a premium.

[Marnath]

it also only gives you (essentially) Fast Healing .002/Level. It costs 90,000gp.

So yeah, probably a little underpriced.

Actually in my opinion at least, the ring of regeneration is horribly overpriced. It should give the actual ability Regeneration for that price, not some crappy 1 or 2 hp an hour.

[WarKitty]

Actually in my opinion at least, the ring of regeneration is horribly overpriced. It should give the actual ability Regeneration for that price, not some crappy 1 or 2 hp an hour.

Regeneration is a kind of underpowered spell for its level, particularly with Complete Divine in play. Vigor gives more hit points back.

As a DM I wouldn't mind an out of combat healing item like you suggest. Just means I can throw more monsters at the party.

However, if this magic item you speak of is going to make the healbot or other healer feel less usful THEN I have a problem. I dislike other players intentially making magic items so that they no longer need to rely on a party member. All players need to feel useful. Best to have the healer craft/buy such an item.

As to custom crafting? Those guidlines are SO broken. The low level spells are just too cheap. Eternal Pro Evil? Eternal Shield Spell? This is a completely sperate topic, so I'll just end this disussion here.

I am the healer, plus buffer, plus battlefield controller, plus fireballer. I'd like to free up a few more spell slots for entangle and bull's strength and whatnot.

[aeauseth]

Giving the pricing some more thought... 8000gp for FastHeal 1. Pretty much negates any wouding effects. Area of effect 20ft. Pretty good item.

An obvious alternative is 4 healing belts which cost 3000gp. For a low level party this is probably about right, so pricing is good so far.

For a level 10+ party 4 healing belts are almost worthless. A Fighter with 100 hit points gets about 30 hp from a healing belt. He would want 3 healing belts. 750gp x 3 x 4 (party members) = 9000gp. Oh and healing belts can be effective in-battle. So price is still in the right ballpark.

Also about about level 10 you start to condiser having combined items, which increase the throat item by 50%.

That ring of regeneration is overly priced, I don't think even a level 20 character would buy one.

[Forged Fury]

Actually in my opinion at least, the ring of regeneration is horribly overpriced. It should give the actual ability Regeneration for that price, not some crappy 1 or 2 hp an hour.

I actually agree with this, it is pretty badly overpriced. It is tied to character level though (upwards of 20HP/Hour), which is a nice feature you don't often see in 3.X. With that said, I don't think repricing it more reasonably would make having a continuous effect Lesser Vigor item for 8K any more appropriate.

[Tytalus]

For the low, low price of 8,260gp and a feat, you can get fast healing 3. All the time. Oh, you also receive a free mithral chain mail +1 (a 5,150gp value) along with it.



---

(*) Millenial Chain [MIC, p.X] (8,150gp), have someone cast Continual Flame on it (110gp, if you have to hire someone for it). Take the True Believer feat, be level 9+. Will require you to wear light armor, so might be a bit awkward for monks and wizards/sorcerers.

[Forged Fury]

Area of effect 20ft

Wait, what? I think he just wanted lesser vigor, not mass lesser vigor.

An obvious alternative is 4 healing belts which cost 3000gp. For a low level party this is probably about right, so pricing is good so far.

This argument has the same potential flaw as my comparison with the Ring of Regeneration; it assumes that a Healing Belt is appropriately priced. I tend to see it as a little underpriced when considering the cost of potions and how often I see that particular item in low-level builds.

[Marnath]

I actually agree with this, it is pretty badly overpriced. It is tied to character level though (upwards of 20HP/Hour), which is a nice feature you don't often see in 3.X. With that said, I don't think repricing it more reasonably would make having a continuous effect Lesser Vigor item for 8K any more appropriate.

The problem is that at that level you'd need most of a day to get your hp back as a heavy duty fighter type. I agree that permanent lesser vigor for 8k is a bit much, but a ring of Regeneration X, with X being a number 1-5 thats appropriate, would be worth at most 50,000gold. Especially since there are plenty of ways to kill a PC without having to do hp damage.

[Forged Fury]

The problem is that at that level you'd need most of a day to get your hp back as a heavy duty fighter type. I agree that permanent lesser vigor for 8k is a bit much, but a ring of Regeneration X, with X being a number 1-5 thats appropriate, would be worth at most 50,000gold. Especially since there are plenty of ways to kill a PC without having to do hp damage.

Agreed, it would be far more elegant to just give them Regeneration X with susceptiblity to some energy type for 50K. In fact, in most combat situations (if you figure out that they somehow have regeneration), it might not even be that worthwhile. You either remove the item providing the regeneration effect and CDG them while they're unconcious or figure out the energy type that overcomes their regeneration and CDG them with a ray or touch spell of that type once they're down.

[WarKitty]

The basic idea here is to give our cleric-free, melee-heavy large party a reliable access to healing without taking up all the slots of one of the two full casters. If anyone has better ideas I'm interested.

[tenshiakodo]

The problem with pricing magic items is that the Magic Item Compendium turns the entire paradigm on it's head; ignore the DMG pricing-they even tell you to do so!

Unfortunately, we're still left wondering what's up with the Belt of Healing. I really enjoy the item in my campaigns, as it really does lighten the load on the party healer (and more than one PC has tried to capitalize on the +2 to Heal checks; Heal is a great skill to have laying around!).

It's not that I think the Belt of Healing is too cheap (well, maybe it should cost a bit more, but it's obviously something you want to be accessible to low-level parties), it's that the other healing items are too expensive by comparism.

Consumables are simply overpriced in all respects. I really think you could cut the cost of potions, scrolls, and wands, et. al. in half and the game would not suffer in the slightest.

But that's just my opinion, based on the fact that I rarely see consumables used in-game. The party gets a lot of them, but they're rarely sure about when to use them, so they end up being carried around in a backpack until they're simply not relevant anymore.

[WarKitty]

Part of the issue is I hate what seem to be "class taxes." In this case, it seems to be "one member of your party must play a healing-focused class." In this particular game, no one wants to.

[Forged Fury]

Part of the issue is I hate what seem to be "class taxes." In this case, it seems to be "one member of your party must play a healing-focused class." In this particular game, no one wants to.

Consumables then, but I agree with others that they're quite a bit overpriced. I'd almost just set the price of a potion at Spell Level X 100gp (yes, this makes 1st level potions more expensive) and say that all potions take effect at the minimum caster level required to cast the spell. Is 300gp a reasonable price to fly for 5 minutes? It could be if you really need to fly.

[2xMachina]

I prefer Wands + UMD. Much cheaper.

[Marnath]

Agreed, it would be far more elegant to just give them Regeneration X with susceptiblity to some energy type for 50K. In fact, in most combat situations (if you figure out that they somehow have regeneration), it might not even be that worthwhile. You either remove the item providing the regeneration effect and CDG them while they're unconcious or figure out the energy type that overcomes their regeneration and CDG them with a ray or touch spell of that type once they're down.

If you already figured out the energy type and are in a position to coup de grace them, why not just take the ring off? But thanks for agreeing with me.

[WarKitty]

Consumables then, but I agree with others that they're quite a bit overpriced. I'd almost just set the price of a potion at Spell Level X 100gp (yes, this makes 1st level potions more expensive) and say that all potions take effect at the minimum caster level required to cast the spell. Is 300gp a reasonable price to fly for 5 minutes? It could be if you really need to fly.

Unfortunately potions are rather expensive. We're not getting a huge bunch of money and the DM is throwing a lot of combat at us - something like 6 battles in what was supposed to be a 12-hour dungeon? I forget exactly, just remember that we had fought 3 battles by the time we were an hour in.

Wands are ok, I'd just point out the wondrous item cost would buy us 533 charges of lesser vigor. At that point we could keep healing ourselves up to max anyways.

[Forged Fury]

If you already figured out the energy type and are in a position to coup de grace them, why not just take the ring off? But thanks for agreeing with me.

I was thinking that the party may not be able to tell exactly what was causing the regeneration effect in the first place. Maybe it's his ring, or maybe that's just a Ring of Protection +X. I was trying to be comprehensive.

[Marnath]

I was thinking that the party may not be able to tell exactly what was causing the regeneration effect in the first place. Maybe it's his ring, or maybe that's just a Ring of Protection +X. I was trying to be comprehensive.

That's fair. But I have to ask what kind of player wouldn't steal all of the guys shiny stuff as a matter of principle.

[Forged Fury]

Unfortunately potions are rather expensive. We're not getting a huge bunch of money and the DM is throwing a lot of combat at us - something like 6 battles in what was supposed to be a 12-hour dungeon? I forget exactly, just remember that we had fought 3 battles by the time we were an hour in.

Wands are ok, I'd just point out the wondrous item cost would buy us 533 charges of lesser vigor. At that point we could keep healing ourselves up to max anyways.

Well, you tend to have to pay a price when you don't have the right tools for the job. In this case, you have a party that doesn't want to have a caster dedicate slots to healing. As a result, you're healing is likely going to be somewhat inefficient.

One of the biggest differences between wands and wondrous items is that wands are spell trigger items and therefore have restrictions on who could use them. Additionally, a wand (as a consumable resource) provides inefficient healing (it may provide too much or not quite enough healing). The wondrous item provides exactly how much healing you would need and you don't "waste" anything as it never runs out. Personally, I don't think your item = 10ish wands of lesser vigor. I see it as a bit more powerful.

Anecdotally, in most games in which I've played, parties seem to go through healing wands like candy since the cleric usually doesn't bother memorizing the spell as they can spontaneously cast it during combat if necessary. I wonder how long those 10 wands would last in gameplay, particularly if you have a large number of sluggo characters.

Just my opinion.

[Forged Fury]

That's fair. But I have to ask what kind of player wouldn't steal all of the guys shiny stuff as a matter of principle.

Oh no, definitely, but without metagaming there are all kind of ways to secrete a magic item on a creature. Toe rings, nose rings, and earrings could count as rings as long as the two ring limit was preserved. A sneaky someone could have Magic Aura cast on their good stuff in order to keep it from being nabbed or stolen. Yeah, it's probably not a common defense, but if I had a magic item that rendered me immune to most damage, I'd probably find some way to keep it hidden (permanent invisibility, magic aura, etc).

[Ormagoden]

So let's see if I've gotten this straight:

A continuously functioning necklace of lesser vigor is worth 8000 gp. Which means it can be crafted for 4000gp. Our 8-person party just hit level 4; I have craft wondrous item.

Does this mean for 4000gp and a little bit of XP, I can make a necklace that takes care of all our healing for the next several levels without casting a single spell? And should I beware of flying DMG's?

Suggestion: Pick a different, lesser used, slot for the custom magic item.
The face slot is rarely used.

Although my suggestion may make the DM less likely to grant said item so use caution.

[Coidzor]

However, if this magic item you speak of is going to make the healbot or other healer feel less usful THEN I have a problem. I dislike other players intentially making magic items so that they no longer need to rely on a party member. All players need to feel useful. Best to have the healer craft/buy such an item.

If healing is his primary function and not having to do it would make him feel less useful, then there's already a whole can of worms at the table.

Healing Belts cost as much as a wand of cure light or lesser vigor. They last forever but have uses per day.

An item of at will cure minor or at will lesser vigor... Well, those things are of the sort of thing that vary greatly between DMs as to whether they're ok with it or they'll start frothing at the mouth and attempt assault and battery at the idea.

Ed:

This argument has the same potential flaw as my comparison with the Ring of Regeneration; it assumes that a Healing Belt is appropriately priced. I tend to see it as a little underpriced when considering the cost of potions and how often I see that particular item in low-level builds.

Potions are intentionally overpriced and conceptualized as a way to reduce character wealth and so using them as a comparison to call something underpriced is.... Probably not the best line of reasoning.

[WarKitty]

Well, you tend to have to pay a price when you don't have the right tools for the job. In this case, you have a party that doesn't want to have a caster dedicate slots to healing. As a result, you're healing is likely going to be somewhat inefficient.

One of the biggest differences between wands and wondrous items is that wands are spell trigger items and therefore have restrictions on who could use them. Additionally, a wand (as a consumable resource) provides inefficient healing (it may provide too much or not quite enough healing). The wondrous item provides exactly how much healing you would need and you don't "waste" anything as it never runs out. Personally, I don't think your item = 10ish wands of lesser vigor. I see it as a bit more powerful.

Anecdotally, in most games in which I've played, parties seem to go through healing wands like candy since the cleric usually doesn't bother memorizing the spell as they can spontaneously cast it during combat if necessary. I wonder how long those 10 wands would last in gameplay, particularly if you have a large number of sluggo characters.

Just my opinion.

Why is it that much more powerful? Let's say 10 castings per day of lesser vigor from a wand (generous for our group). That's about 7 weeks of adventuring if every day is combat-heavy. So it's a question of whether you pay 4000gp (or 500gp/party member) once, or every 2-3 months. Once we gain a few levels that 500gp isn't going to make a significant difference.

Also that's part of what I don't like - I understand the "right tool for the right job", but I don't like the limited selection of what can qualify as the right tool. Ordinarily I'd be happy to sit back and play a healer (PF druid). The real issue is how melee-heavy we are in a world where the right tool is almost always a caster. We can't afford to dedicate a caster to healing.

Suggestion: Pick a different, lesser used, slot for the custom magic item.
The face slot is rarely used.

Although my suggestion may make the DM less likely to grant said item so use caution.

Shouldn't be a big issue. The in-combat vigor isn't a huge deal. The idea is to have an item we can pass around after combat. And neck seems the logical slot to me.

[DarkEternal]

The party cleric in the game I run is optimised that he has lesser vigor on with Divine Metamagic and a crapload of other stuff on 24 hours a day, so yeah, basically they are all healed to full health every time the battle ends. It's not really that big of a deal, but at times it can get frustrating.