Eldritch Diciple - Tier 2.5?

[aeauseth]

So I am pre-leveling my Eldritch Disciple to level 11 and he's looking very strong.

Cloistered Cleric 4/Warlock 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/ Eldritch Disciple 5
STR: 30
DEX: 30
CON: 21
INT: 15
WIS: 21
CHA: 20
HP: 122
AC: 45, 35 flat, 30 touch
FORT: +24
REF: +23
WILL: +28
GRAPPLE +25
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Primary Attack: Eldritch Glaive +27/+27/+22/+17 (5d6)

I'm using Divine Metamagic + Extend for several 2day persistent buffs. Also double dipping my turns. Homebrew feat Practiced Warlock for full Eldritch Blast. Full Character Sheet is here.

So I think I'm pretty powerful. This is a combo of a Cleric (Tier 1) and Warlock (Tier 4), but what Tier is this guy? (1+4)/2 = Tier 2.5 seems reasonable. Moderately optimized so Tier 2?

His raw combat power rivals a fighter, about the same HP, almost twice the AC, about the same damage output, triple the movement.

But Tier level is all about flexibility & versatility (isn't it?). In this case most of his spells are dedicated to persisted buffs. He is a level 9 caster (2 levels lower than a straight Cleric). Perma flight is pretty versatile.

Anyone have an example of a Tier 1 or Tier 2 to compare against? I did notice that his backup weapon (Morningstar) does about the same damage as the Eldritch Glaive.

It appears to me a Tier 1 Wizard would do about the same damage but in most situations would have terrible AC/HP. I concede that a properly prepared level 11 Wizard could do much more than this build, but my ED build seems well suited for most situations (prepared or not).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Care to go in greater detail on how you got such high numbers??? I admit I haven't read the sheet thouroughly but at a glance it seems quite strong.

[jiriku]

Your character is still Tier 1. Most of your build is cleric, cleric prestige classes, cleric spells, cleric-oriented feats, and cleric-oriented magic items. The components of the build that rely on warlock elements are well-chosen enough not to interfere with the essential mojo of being a cleric.

On a side note, you should use those "temp ability modifier" boxes to notate what part of your ability score boosts are from spells. My initial take was "how the heck does he have such high stats?", and it took some digging through your character sheet to see where the buffs were comming from.

You might also find it helpful to create a list of all of your active buffs with their caster level noted, as a time-saving tool in the (very likely) event that your DM whacks you with a targeted dispel magic.

[aeauseth]

Care to go in greater detail on how you got such high numbers??? I admit I haven't read the sheet thouroughly but at a glance it seems quite strong.

I won't go thru them all, but here's a sample:

• STR = 16 (Base) + 2 (Morale/Elation) +6 (Enhancement/DivinePower) +2 (sacred/LesserHolyTransformation) + 4 (Size/RighteousMight) = 30
• DEX = 18 (Base) + 2 (Morale/Elation) + 10 (Enhancement/DivineAgility) = 30
• CON = 17 (Base) +2 (sacred/LesserHolyTransformation) + 2 (Size/RighteousMight) = 21
• INT = 15 (Base)
• WIS = 17 (Base) + 2 (Level) + 2 (Enhancement/MagicItem) = 21
• CHA = 16 (Base) + 4 (Enhancement/LesserVisageDeity) = 20
• AC = 10 (Base) + 10 (Dex) + 8 (Armor/GreaterLuminousArmor) +4 (Shield/Shield) -1 (Size) + 1 (NaturalSize) +3 (Luck/Recitation) + 2 (NaturalEnhancement/RighteousMight) + 2 (Deflect/RingProt) + 6 (Dodge/MonkBelt) = 45

I believe this is a typical optimized Divine Metamagic Cleric buff set.

[aeauseth]

Your character is still Tier 1. Most of your build is cleric, cleric prestige classes, cleric spells, cleric-oriented feats, and cleric-oriented magic items. The components of the build that rely on warlock elements are well-chosen enough not to interfere with the essential mojo of being a cleric.

So you believe that selective dips into lower tiers doesn't significantly lower the highest Tier level? Tier 1 + Tier 4 = Tier 1. Interesting.

In our party I'm 2nd in damage (werepanther/rogue is 1st because I flank for her). I'm 1st in party buffs. 1st in fixing negative effects. So I do feel like a Tier 1 character.

[SurlySeraph]

The point of selective dips is to make you more powerful, is it not? Two levels of Monk, Paladin, or Fighter can be very useful to many melee builds and even some gishes. Indeed, many of the low tier classes are low-tier because they're frontloaded - the Monk and Paladin stop getting nice things after 6th level, Fighter was formerly said to go up to 4th (if you wanted Weapon Specialization) and then up to 6th (for Dungeoncrasher), etc.

In your case, two levels without caster progression in exchange for Eldritch Blast and a few invocations isn't a bad deal. Of course, it'd look much better if you grabbed a Warlock's Scepter and Greater Chasuble of Fell Power, and didn't have so much Strength. And I can't imagine why you didn't take Beguiling Influence, it's the strongest argument for a Warlock dip that I know of.

[aeauseth]

Of course, it'd look much better if you grabbed a Warlock's Scepter and Greater Chasuble of Fell Power, and didn't have so much Strength.

DM hasn't provided me much opportunity to select Warlocky magic items from towns/stores. It might be intentional, not sure. But I agree that both items you list would be very useful.

Yup, my strength is over the top, but hey what can I do. This is a side-effect of all my buffs, some of which are for my party members. Pretty much guarentees my Eldritch Glaive hits every time though.

And I can't imagine why you didn't take Beguiling Influence, it's the strongest argument for a Warlock dip that I know of.

I don't understand how Beguiling Influence works, which is why I didn't take it.

Can you shatter a magic item? Can you do it in one round? We ran across a mindflayer with a 3 charged healing gauntlet. I assume the gauntlet was leather, thus shatter doesn't work (does it?). Under what circumstances would I use Beguiling Influence over an Eldritch Blast/Glaive attack?

[Zaydos]

I don't understand how Beguiling Influence works, which is why I didn't take it.

Can you shatter a magic item? Can you do it in one round? We ran across a mindflayer with a 3 charged healing gauntlet. I assume the gauntlet was leather, thus shatter doesn't work (does it?). Under what circumstances would I use Beguiling Influence over an Eldritch Blast/Glaive attack?

Beguiling Influence gives you a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and I think Intimidate. There's another warlock invocation that copies shatter (Baleful Utterance).

[Coidzor]

Do you still gain invocations when going Eldritch Disciple, or is it just the Eldritch blast that advances?

Also, the Build is essentially, with no further deviations, a Cleric 19. You're capable of going all the way down to Cleric 17 and still have ninth level spells and the full power of the class.

So WHY THE HECK would you think it would fall between Favored Soul and Factotum?

[grarrrg]

His raw combat power rivals a fighter, about the same HP, almost twice the AC, about the same damage output, triple the movement....
I did notice that his backup weapon (Morningstar) does about the same damage as the Eldritch Glaive....
It appears to me a Tier 1 Wizard would do about the same damage but in most situations would have terrible AC/HP.

I feel the need to point out that Tier level has VERY little to do with raw damage output. Heck, it has little to do with damage output in general.

The higher tiers tend to be high tiers because they can beat encounters without a lot of actual 'fighting'. It doesn't take a lot of damage output to kill something that is unconcious/immobilized/mindraped/etc... Once your target is incapacitated then you can kill it at your leisure.

But Tier level is all about flexibility & versatility (isn't it?).

Yes. Wizards/Druids/etc... can do ANYTHING (after reaching a certain point), whereas a Fighter can, well, hit things > make dead. (oversimplification, I know, just go with it, not looking for an arguement, just making examples)

[SurlySeraph]

I don't understand how Beguiling Influence works, which is why I didn't take it.

Can you shatter a magic item? Can you do it in one round? We ran across a mindflayer with a 3 charged healing gauntlet. I assume the gauntlet was leather, thus shatter doesn't work (does it?). Under what circumstances would I use Beguiling Influence over an Eldritch Blast/Glaive attack?

You're thinking Baleful Utterance, which is basically Shatter at will, plus a chance of dazing and deafening the target if you break something they're holding. You can auto-break brittle nonmagical objects in a 5-foot-radius, or deal damage to any object that weighs up to 10 pounds per caster level - magical guantlets are fair game. Baleful Utterance is mostly fun at low levels so you can break everything, and can be useful at higher levels for the daze effect and to deny resources to targets without having to bother with sundering (oh, you have a Holy Avenger? Not anymore you don't).

Beguiling Influence is +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Always. It's awesome.

[thompur]

You're thinking Baleful Utterance, which is basically Shatter at will, plus a chance of dazing and deafening the target if you break something they're holding. You can auto-break brittle nonmagical objects in a 5-foot-radius, or deal damage to any non-magical object that weighs up to 10 pounds per caster level - magical guantlets are not fair game. Baleful Utterance is mostly fun at low levels so you can break everything, and can be useful at higher levels for the daze effect and to deny resources to targets without having to bother with sundering (oh, you have a Holy Avenger?you still do, but I ruined your scabbard.).

Beguiling Influence is +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. Always. It's awesome.

Fixed it for you.

[fortesama]

Maybe i misread something and i'm relatively new but... how are you double dipping your turns? i thought sacred exorcist only progresses turning level if you already have the ability to turn.

[aeauseth]

Do you still gain invocations when going Eldritch Disciple, or is it just the Eldritch blast that advances?

Yes invocations & EB advance.

Also, the Build is essentially, with no further deviations, a Cleric 19. You're capable of going all the way down to Cleric 17 and still have ninth level spells and the full power of the class.

I was seriously considering a Cleric3/Warlock1/SacredExorcist1/Contemplative1/Binder1/EldritchDisciple10/HellfireWarlock3, which puts me at a Cleric Caster Level of 14. Pushing into Epic (Campain is expected to) I'd do all Eldritch Disciple.

Sticking to Cleric would be Cleric3/Warlock1/SacredExorcist1/EldritchDisciple10/Complentative2/DivineOracle3, which puts me at a Cleric Caster Level of 18 (ED is missing 1 level of cleric). Still going Eldritch Diciple in Epic.

I'm still torn on which way to go, and I need to make my decision in the next 2-3 levels. I believe I only need 7th level spells to be an effective healer.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe i misread something and i'm relatively new but... how are you double dipping your turns? i thought sacred exorcist only progresses turning level if you already have the ability to turn.

I guess he is using the destroy undead acf from ravenloft I think, and then dipping sacred exorcist to "re-gain" the turn undead feature.

[fortesama]

guess?

i thought you guys noticed something i didn't and didn't complain on how he pulled of that many turns on level 11.

[Dusk Eclipse]

guess?

i thought you guys noticed something i didn't and didn't complain on how he pulled of that many turns on level 11.

AFAIK there are many ways to double dip and to get a ridiculous amount of turn attempts, the one I posted is the most common

[fortesama]

that's probably the most plausible reason.

but we're yet to hear the actual method from aeauseth.

[aeauseth]

I guess he is using the destroy undead acf from ravenloft I think, and then dipping sacred exorcist to "re-gain" the turn undead feature.

This is exactly what I did! By the way I found Destroy Undead more useful than normal turn undead when it comes to actually using it against undead. If I were to build a striaght Cleric I'd still take the acf "Destroy Undead".

[Daelen]

Fixed it for you.

Actually the Shatter spell does not specify that the targeted version only works on non-magical items. Only the radius burst one says that.


Anyway, didn't mean to steer away from the conversation, just wanted to point that out.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, it does.

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

emphasis mine.