Why are Swordsages tier 3?

[Kaeso]

First of all, I'd like to say that I have seen the swordsage class (even though I've never played it) and it seems very potent, far more potent than the monk. I still don't understand why it's considered to be tier 3 though.

According to Brilliant Gameologist Tier 3 characters are

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

The website also uses three scenario's to elaborate on what the tier system is supposed to explain (ie. how useful a character can be in different situations):

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

In situation 1 the swordsage has no way of getting past the traps (no trapfinding) but is able to defeat the dragon in melee.

In situation 2 the swordsage can put some ranks in hide and move silently to sneak into the city, but has no social social skills besides intimidate, which is hardly useful when trying to parlay.

In situation 3 the swordsage is yet again near useless. At best he can use his über skills to take out a good chunk of the enemy army.

In conclusion, the swordsage (and the other ToB classes for that matter) are very, very good at one thing: killing things. The barbarian is also insanely good at killing things (especially when taking a good prestige class like bear warrior or frenzied berserker) but useless when that's not the required course of action. That's why IMHO the swordsage should be high-tier 4.
Could anybody explain why they're considered to be tier 3 instead?

[Knaight]

In conclusion, the swordsage (and the other ToB classes for that matter) are very, very good at one thing: killing things. The barbarian is also insanely good at killing things (especially when taking a good prestige class like bear warrior or frenzied berserker) but useless when that's not the required course of action. That's why IMHO the swordsage should be high-tier 4.
Could anybody explain why they're considered to be tier 3 instead?

However, in combat, the Barbarian can manage one thing well, damage. The ToB classes all have other effects available for use, making them much more effective in combat than the barbarian. Furthermore, maneuvers and stances do have some out of combat utility, looking at the swordsage you can break out of a jail cell float above the ground and circumvent obstacles as a result, and any number of similar actions. They aren't incredibly powerful classes, but do have an edge up over most melee classes in general utility.

[Frosty]

Well, at the very least, the SS has better odds of bypassing/getting out of traps when found/sprung due to things like the stance that gives Spider-Climb, the stance tat lets you air-walk, etc. Plus (ex) Teleport maneuvers.

As for the resistance leader, a SS should have decent Wisdom, and with Knowledge (nobility) as a class skill, if he puts a few cross-class ranks in Diplomacy, he can make a passable emmisary. Plus knowledge local might help with gathering info on 1) how to get to the resistance leader and 2) find out things the resistance leader needs so you can enter the negotiations better armed. Sense Motive as a class skill also helps in any negotiation situation. You can know when the leader is bullshatting you. Not ideal, but passable.

The last part is where he doesn't shine too much compared to say...the barbarian. With Martial Lore he might be able to teach some of the more elite shock troopers of the city some basic ToB tricks I suppose.

[mabriss lethe]

situation 3: The swordsage has options here, as well. He could be a crafter and hand out Martial scripts to key units, He could be part of recon teams that keep track of the army's movements. He could be a saboteur/assassin, taking out key individuals and sowing as much chaos as he can to slow the army down, buying them more time to prepare.

[Zaydos]

In situation 1 he has evasion and maneuvers that can teleport, walk on walls, etc.

In situation 2 he has knowledge skills and the ability to actually get into the city without being noticed.

In situation 3 he could use Desert Wind AoE to kill mooks in a big area instead of being limited by melee reach and requiring his enemies to come near to cleave them but able to proactively hunt down the enemy.

All of these are big improvements over barbarian.

[Thrawn183]

The last part is where he doesn't shine too much compared to say...the barbarian. With Martial Lore he might be able to teach some of the more elite shock troopers of the city some basic ToB tricks I suppose.

Gotta agree with Zayden on this, the Swordsage can get AoE abilities. Sure, nowhere near those of a full spellcaster, but then what class can?

[tarbrush]

Tier 3 is as high as he can reasonably be. Tier 2 is things like sorcerers and favoured souls, who can still break the game without too much effort.

Swordsages top out at useful, they don't have any of the abilities to just nova a situation out of the way in the manner of limited list full casters and other t2 denizens.

[Frosty]

Tier 3 is as high as he can reasonably be. Tier 2 is things like sorcerers and favoured souls, who can still break the game without too much effort.

Swordsages top out at useful, they don't have any of the abilities to just nova a situation out of the way in the manner of limited list full casters and other t2 denizens.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that SS is Tier 2 material, only asking whether he's in fact closer to T4 than T3.

[grarrrg]

Tier 3 is as high as he can reasonably be. Tier 2 is things like sorcerers and favoured souls, who can still break the game without too much effort.

Swordsages top out at useful, they don't have any of the abilities to just nova a situation out of the way in the manner of limited list full casters and other t2 denizens.

You didn't actually read any of the posts, did you?
I know the standard tier complaint is "why are (class) tier # and not tier 1? they are awesomes!!"
But this guy actually asked the opposite, and none of the replies imply swordsages should be higher than 3 anyway.

This is not just directed at you, it's a common and annoying problem.

Please read the original post, in its entirety before firing off a reply.
Try to respond directly to the original posters concerns and open up a dialogue, not just shoot off information/opinions.

I'm pulling for you, we're all in this together.

And now you know.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm pulling for you, we're all in this together.

And now you know.

Red Green has nothing to do with G.I. Joe.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, at the very least, the SS has better odds of bypassing/getting out of traps when found/sprung due to things like the stance that gives Spider-Climb, the stance tat lets you air-walk, etc. Plus (ex) Teleport maneuvers.

The teleport maneuvers are supernatural.

[mabriss lethe]

The teleport maneuvers are supernatural.

They should be,yes, but lack the accompanying text in the maneuver description, which defaults them back to (ex) abilities as per the description of maneuvers in the book.

I'm pretty sure that never made it into (or survived the partial destruction of) the ToB errata.

[Yuki Akuma]

They should be,yes, but lack the accompanying text in the maneuver description, which defaults them back to (ex) abilities as per the description of maneuvers in the book.

I'm pretty sure that never made it into (or survived the partial destruction of) the ToB errata.

...Wait, huh?

I was sure there was a blanket statement that Shadow Hand was (Su).

Well, never mind.

[Esser-Z]

Nope, no blanket 'is Su' statements for Desert OR Shadow. Only those marked as Su are Su.

[Kallisti]

I believe they made a blanket statement that any overtly magical effects are (Su), which covers a fair portion of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind.

If a maneuver is overtly magical or otherwise uses a supernatural power source, it is noted as a supernatural ability in its description.

Huh. Live and learn, I suppose...

[Snake-Aes]

I believe they made a blanket statement that any overtly magical effects are (Su), which covers a fair portion of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind.

If a maneuver is overtly magical or otherwise uses a supernatural power source, it is noted as a supernatural ability in its description. In this case, the maneuver obeys all the standard rules for supernatural abilities.

Not enough to block the raw-exploitation-loophole.

[mabriss lethe]

Tome of Battle, Page 40

"Martial maneuvers and stances are never spells or spell-like abilities.
Unless the description of the specific maneuver or stance
says otherwise, treat it as an extraordinary ability. Thus,
these abilities work just fine in an antimagic field or a dead
magic zone. A maneuver or stance can’t be dispelled or
counterspelled, and initiating one does not provoke attacks
of opportunity.
If a maneuver is overtly magical or otherwise uses a supernatural
power source, it is noted as a supernatural ability in its
description. In this case, the maneuver obeys all the standard
rules for supernatural abilities."

Emphasis mine

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[Kallisti]

And by the time I finish my edit correcting myself, I have been corrected. Of course.

Back on topic: Tier 4 is for one-trick ponies.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.

Swordsages can definitely shine in melee and be useful outside of combat, so tier 4 and below are out of the question.

Tier 2:

...and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes.

There are plenty of things Swordsages can't do. Optimizing a swordsage for Save-or-Lose/Die effects, for example, would be very difficult indeed, compared to other Tier 2 classes.

By process of elimination, that'd put them at Tier 3. Besides, I think they fit the Tier 3 description very well--excelling at one thing, but capable of contributing when something else is required.

[Snake-Aes]

I think they fit the Tier 3 description very well--excelling at one thing, but capable of contributing when something else is required.

Pretty much. Also note that "Fares reasonably outside the area of expertise" doesn't mean the person shines at such things. It just means they have something better than their hitpoints to use to circumvent those things.

As given in the thread, a swordsage is quite capable to "beat" a trap by bypassing it with his movement tricks. They also receive a skill points as a bard, making them good sneaky scouts. On top of that, they are equals to the fighter in terms of diplomacy, if not slightly better due to skill synergy.
As far as a dungeon go, swordsages fare as well as a noncaster ever will. Social Combat is their only weakness that isn't "doesn't cast spells".

[Caphi]

As far as a dungeon go, swordsages fare as well as a noncaster ever will. Social Combat is their only weakness that isn't "doesn't cast spells".

Backing this up with experience. Swordsages also tend to have very high Sense Motive checks, so while they won't overturn the social encounter on their own, one may contribute if the target is trying to get something past the party. A "bluff tank", if you will. It's not much, but as noted, you weren't going to be the centerpiece of social encounters anyway.

They also get Intimidate, but not every swordsage invests in it, they don't have the charisma to back it up, and Intimidate is a subpar way of mouthing anyway.

[Cieyrin]

Intimidate is a subpar way of mouthing anyway.

I wouldn't say that, as getting everybody to fear you and give you stuff is something nice. Sure, everybody isn't your friend like Diplomancers do but you get what you want in the short term, which is often all you need.

Plus lockdown shenanigans with Imperious Command can't be laughed off, either. Would I do such with a Swordsage? Probably not but you could, if you want the kung fu master dropping idle threats to make people do what you want.

[Frosty]

Again i say that Knowledge: Nobility with a few cross-class ranks of diplomacy and you're not half bad at not offending people.