making zombies, scarier

[grimbold]

I have recently started playing a modification to zombies and it seems ok. These zombies can now infect characters and turn them into zombies. Nut theyre not like vampires.
essentially
if your are wearing light or medium armor and you are bit or slammed by a zombie you must make a fortitude save versus disease of 10+zombies HD if you fall this save you fall unconscious 1d20 hours later and then after 1d8 hours of being unconscious you reanimate into a zombie. (Similair to the zombies in the book World War Z).
this makes zombies scarier in my opinion and a harder opponent. it also means umber hulk zombies are no longer cr 6 but more like cr 15.
The zombies bite can be dispelled by a remove disease spell and it does not affect a paladin who is immune to disease. If you are wearing heavy armor you only need make the save on a natural 20 by a zombie. Also zombies can not weild weapons in this variant. i feel this balances it out a bit

[Fingerlessfist]

Interesting, but you have to remember than in a fantasy zombie Apocalypse, you have magic. A cleric, for example, could probably use remove disease or the like, reducing the scary. Could explain how so many zombies got there, howverver...

I have a few more cool ideas for sale though:
perhaps make the infected living creatures, so channel energy and positive energy in general doesn't work?

Or maybe mutated zombies that specify target clreics...

[grimbold]

yes you could remove disease but whats the ration of commoners to clerics? Using DMG worldbuilding guidelines for town size, some smaller towns aka thorps and sometimes hamlets (whats with that word anyway?) have no clerics. They could not remove the disease and a thorp is maybe 60ish people and a hamlet is 200ish a number of infected of that size could cause some problems Also a lot of villages and towns don't have a 5th level cleric that is neccesary to cast remove disease. Also remember that if one zombie infected 10 commoners in one day the cleric couldnt cure them all beforee some reanimated.
And then theres the moral aspect of killing people before they reanimate.

The remove disease bit is really just for PCs and NPCs who you can't have dying.

theres a blog post somewhere that comments on how few humans have reached 5th level. maybe someone can link you up

[Morph Bark]

You can always make the disease act like vile damage so it can only be cured with magic inside a hallowed area, so that remove disease doesn't ruin it so quickly.

[Yora]

One zombie is harmless and boring. They are dangerous because there are so unbelievably many of them. As this is hard to do in D&D, make it swarms of zombies instead.
I think DMG2 hat rules for mobs, but I don't know if there's really much of a difference compared to regular swarms.

[grimbold]

swarms are way different than mobs fyi, if you read the MM swarms are like craploads of small creatures like bees or bats, they can't exactly mob.. They kind of crawl all over you, great for horror campaigns

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Unless you're running a very gritty, high-attrition game, I would not suggest doing this. Observe.

A base zombie (Human, 2 HD) has a CR of 1/2. It forces a DC 12 save-or-die at 1st level, when a high save is +6, and a low save is sometimes +0. A greater than 50% possible chance of assured death isn't fun.

It gets worse with the way zombie CR is calculated. Assuming a CR boost from this ability (which you'd have to do), I'll estimate CRs at 200% of their standard value.

This makes a 20 HD Zombie (normally CR 6) CR 12. It forces a DC 30 save vs. what is basically death. At CR 20, a high save is +8, and I'll save you'll get a +4 from an ability, and +3 from items, totaling +15 overall. Which equals a 75% chance to fail against a single attack. A low Con + low Fort character is assured a death on anything but a natural 20. Even if you up the CR to 15 you'll find that the low-Fort characters can't make the DC 30 save to...well...save their lives.

If you want frightening, I'd give zombies a disease attack that deals a small amount of Con damage. If it kills the target, they rise as a zombie. Perhaps it can also be spread via contact (with a save each time they touch the target), and a flat DC of 10 + 1/2 the Zombie's HD (as a normal save, but without a modifier). With something like 1d2 points of Con drain for each failed save and 2-3 consecutive saves needed to pass, it becomes very, very dangerous, but can be cured through spells and perhaps rituals, and is thus not quite as fatal to a party.

The added bonus is that disease is a constant threat, and can spread through a community with no zombies present. Players like having problems (zombie infestations) to solve/cure, and enjoy the constant threat of disease and exposure more than the threat of either sudden, instantaneous doom (assured death and zombification) or a boring fight with normal zombies.

[Dr.Epic]

Here's an idea on how to make them scarier: once a zombie is reduced to 0 HP, roll a die. If it comes up even, the creature reanimates and resumes attacking. Just a thought on how to really freak out the PCs. "Why won't these things die?!?"

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here's an idea on how to make them scarier: once a zombie is reduced to 0 HP, roll a die. If it comes up even, the creature reanimates and resumes attacking. Just a thought on how to really freak out the PCs. "Why won't these things die?!?"

While interesting, this just prolongs an encounter with an otherwise boring foe.

[Forever Curious]

I'm a personal fan of Spellwarped (SR and bonuses whenever a spell fails to overcome it) and Spell-stitched (spell-like abilities and other goodies) zombies.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Just use ghouls, they hunger for flesh[D&D zombies don't] they spread a disease that if it kills you makes you rise as a zombie. Most commoners would eventually succumb to ghoul fever and die, considering it takes two consecutive saves to recover.

The thing to remember is, the traditional zombie film uses more regular folk not heroes not super humans not the kinds of things you play in an RPG game. Rambo takes on a small army armed with machine guns, should a horde of shambling zombies really prove much of a threat?

The other problem is that zombies HD scales much faster then CR, with out any special death disease a 20HD zombie probably isn't a threat to even a 10th level party. Giving them an death attack throws any possible balance of CR out the window.

Even without mid level adventurers...

If a mob of commoners become zombies they can still be ridden down like grass by Calvary. [spirited charge can ride-by-attack, insure plenty of damage for a 2hd zombie and impunity from counter attack]. If they ever assembled into an actually army like a thousand zombies that would get the attention of mid level NPC's.

It just doesn't work in D&D you need a grittier system where injury is a bit more meaningful and probably the players aren't ever superhuman.

[Morph Bark]

Here's an idea on how to make them scarier: once a zombie is reduced to 0 HP, roll a die. If it comes up even, the creature reanimates and resumes attacking. Just a thought on how to really freak out the PCs. "Why won't these things die?!?"

While interesting, this just prolongs an encounter with an otherwise boring foe.

Better yet, when they reanimate, if they do, roll another die for a random "mutation". This potentially turns them into a zombie variant as presented in Libris Mortis.

[Dr.Epic]

While interesting, this just prolongs an encounter with an otherwise boring foe.

Boring based on who's opinion? Some players may see it as a challenge. And let's not forget that combat is a big part of D&D. I'd also award extra XP for the zombies that did reanimate.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Boring based on who's opinion? Some players may see it as a challenge. And let's not forget that combat is a big part of D&D. I'd also award extra XP for the zombies that did reanimate.

Boring because zombies are, quite frankly, one of the least threatening opponents in the game. With their inability to move and attack, you can kite them with 5-foot steps for an entire encounter, rendering them useless. Their lack of extra abilities means that they have nothing else to threaten you with, so it becomes an extended game of "poke it with a stick and step backwards."

[Worira]

They can partial charge, though. So it's safer to shoot it/throw things at it while sauntering backwards.

EDIT: Or you can stay exactly 5 feet away, in which case they're helpless unless they can surround you. So yeah.

[Dr.Epic]

Boring because zombies are, quite frankly, one of the least threatening opponents in the game. With their inability to move and attack, you can kite them with 5-foot steps for an entire encounter, rendering them useless. Their lack of extra abilities means that they have nothing else to threaten you with, so it becomes an extended game of "poke it with a stick and step backwards."

Depends on what level and what type of zombie. Not to mention you could throw in the caster than created them and it'll work.

[LOTRfan]

Boring because zombies are, quite frankly, one of the least threatening opponents in the game. With their inability to move and attack, you can kite them with 5-foot steps for an entire encounter, rendering them useless. Their lack of extra abilities means that they have nothing else to threaten you with, so it becomes an extended game of "poke it with a stick and step backwards."

May I suggest the fast zombies from Libris Mortis? Pair them with the unkillable zombies, and any play will run screaming at the sight of even the most mundane zombies.

EDIT: You know what would fit the whole disease thing very well? A homebrewed Croatoan template...

[BladeofOblivion]

You can try my Necroshape Feats. They allow zombies and the like to become a credible threat, and in a way more fun than "+1 to damage." Of course, it becomes harder to implement if you want Zombie Cancer rather than a Necromancer.

[grimbold]

very interesting points, i think that djiin in tonic has a valid point in his first post.. however Dr. Epics idea of reanimating zombies is also super cool, would a lowered save against zombieness (like 1/2 hd) be over powered? I think it would be reasonable.
i guess the main point of the thread is to make zombies less boring and more awesome, as they are in world war z (great book fyi) so i appreciate all of your suggestions :)

[Morph Bark]

i guess the main point of the thread is to make zombies less boring and more awesome, as they are in world war z (great book fyi) so i appreciate all of your suggestions :)

Have you got access to Libris Mortis? Tons of things in there for all sorts of undead and zombie variants as well. The unkillable and fast zombies mentioned prior are from there. Book of Vile Darkness also has the Corpse template, so that the (technically) zombies would keep their class abilities and Intelligence.

[hamishspence]

Ju-ju zombies from the very late 3.0 Unapproachable East are slightly more 3.5-compatible- having been published after some of the pre-3.5 release changes started to be implemented.

Corpse Creature template is in the mid 3.0 book BoVD- which was published before these changes started to appear, and never got a 3.5 update- which means the DM has to decide for themselves how it should be updated to 3.5.

[Morph Bark]

Ju-ju zombies from the very late 3.0 Unapproachable East are slightly more 3.5-compatible- having been published after some of the pre-3.5 release changes started to be implemented.

Corpse Creature template is in the mid 3.0 book BoVD- which was published before these changes started to appear, and never got a 3.5 update- which means the DM has to decide for themselves how it should be updated to 3.5.

What I find a particular shame is that Corpse Creature, as well as Bone and Corrupted, don't list LA, whereas I'd love to play as one of them.

[hamishspence]

A variant of Corrupted gets a 3.5 update in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, under the name Corrupted By The Abyss.

I'm not sure if it gains an LA in the process.

[imp_fireball]

yes you could remove disease but whats the ration of commoners to clerics? Using DMG worldbuilding guidelines for town size, some smaller towns aka thorps and sometimes hamlets (whats with that word anyway?) have no clerics. They could not remove the disease and a thorp is maybe 60ish people and a hamlet is 200ish a number of infected of that size could cause some problems Also a lot of villages and towns don't have a 5th level cleric that is neccesary to cast remove disease. Also remember that if one zombie infected 10 commoners in one day the cleric couldnt cure them all beforee some reanimated.
And then theres the moral aspect of killing people before they reanimate.

The remove disease bit is really just for PCs and NPCs who you can't have dying.

theres a blog post somewhere that comments on how few humans have reached 5th level. maybe someone can link you up

This calls for zombies with zombie specific templates!

Fast zombies (can pounce and grapple maybe).

Note that zombies should grapple before they bite, reflecting their need to swarm and overcome a character's AoO limit per round.

Zombie magicians!

Zombies with only a torso.

Zombie heads in jars.

Organ grinder factories grinding literal zombie organs to produce undead derived remedies. Good for typical post apocalyptic fantasy.

Undead flesh golems (many zombies sewn together) with more than two arms, and extra heads and mouths + unique (otherwise improvised) weapons like sharp hooks on a chain.

Zombies mutated into ghouls. Or zombies with reach or large tongues. Or hunter zombies that sneak attack and move silently. Or zombies with scent that can track.

Zombie archers.

Zombie dogs, zombie bears, zombie birds. Players have to fight swarms of zombie rats and birds - originally rats might have carried the disease but then it mutated and overcame even the fortuitous rat demographic. Zombie bears are potentially even more aggressive than regular brown bears (particularly if 'fast') - they look like literal demons, covered in blood, where you don't know where the teeth and jaws begin and the sharp protruding bones end.

There could be a puzzle element - the players have to get through a crowd of hundreds of zombies. How? Do they hit and run and wear the crowd down? Do they pretend to be zombies to mingle with the crowd (granted, this wouldn't as easy as in shawn of the dead)?

Zombies with PC levels. Maybe they retain some skill they had in life.
----

Ways to make a zombie scary:

- It has some memories of its life. It describes how painful its existence is and how it recognizes you as a friend as it is eating you.

- It's all retained memory but absence of thought, hanging by instinct. It has some PC levels and it can speak but it doesn't understand you. It tends to repeat phrases over and over again (the last thing it may have said before it turned; phrases that it commonly said in life (ie. 'meat is 2 Gp! If it was a butcher.'), etc.), or repeats what you say.

- It ambles towards you (basically, general single action zombie).

- It roars throatily upon seeing you and sprints at you in a double move. It chases you until you are too tired to resist.

- It tries to get at you whatever way possible. So it'll walk through a fire.

- Its head expulses fumes when you shoot it.

- It cannot die. You have to sever the head and then destroy it (preferably obliteration) - coup de graces, called shots (-10 attack penalty versus only the armor bonus of whatever armor is covering the body part + size bonus of body part + other touch AC; X damage to do Y on body part) and critical confirmations all help mechanics wise.

- It cannot die. You have to destroy every part of the body and even then it is still alive. It can feel pain - if you catch one, you can hold a reasonable discussion with it, but it tends to dwell far too often on the incomprehensible pain it feels if it doesn't feast upon brains. Gets boring after awhile.

[Jarrick]

Freak out your PCs by having them get to know a few people on a casual visit to a small village; the barkeep, the halfling story-teller, the little shepherd girl with her one sheep daddy lets her look after, etc. Then, in the dead of night, half the village becomes zombies bent on the PCs' destruction. The Catch? They retain their human minds and cry out begging the PCs not to kill them even as they mindlessly shamble closer and closer against their will. And then they encounter the little shepherd girl, who creeps towards them crying that she's scared, please, what's happening...

The key to making this work is making the NPC characters likable and memerable, maybe establish them well ahead of time.

[imp_fireball]

The key to making this work is making the NPC characters likable and memerable, maybe establish them well ahead of time.

I'm getting the feeling he won't want to kill them off then.

Me, I don't even blink had I the chance. But not everyone is me, so...

Some details on different zombies and creating them.

This could work as 'just another type of zombie' or for something far more plot centric revolving around the one type of zombie.

[grimbold]

ooo thanks for the advice and links. but arent they essentially what i said?

i love killing off small children and barmen actualy my last campaign (in which i was a player i slowly turned CE by stabbing barmen and their families for free beer. i would claim that i did not know they were good and make a case of how they must have been evil

this is becoming a useful way to make zombies less meh
keep it up!

[NineThePuma]

If you want frightening, I'd give zombies a disease attack that deals a small amount of Con damage. If it kills the target, they rise as a zombie. Perhaps it can also be spread via contact (with a save each time they touch the target), and a flat DC of 10 + 1/2 the Zombie's HD (as a normal save, but without a modifier). With something like 1d2 points of Con drain for each failed save and 2-3 consecutive saves needed to pass, it becomes very, very dangerous, but can be cured through spells and perhaps rituals, and is thus not quite as fatal to a party.

The added bonus is that disease is a constant threat, and can spread through a community with no zombies present. Players like having problems (zombie infestations) to solve/cure, and enjoy the constant threat of disease and exposure more than the threat of either sudden, instantaneous doom (assured death and zombification) or a boring fight with normal zombies.

This, right here. I am now afraid of zombies.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This, right here. I am now afraid of zombies.

Awesome.

Bonus points for the moral dilemma where a town is partially (or entirely) infected, but people are still mid-disease and the cure isn't handy. What do you do with those people doomed to become zombies, but still entirely human?

That'll give any non-evil party nightmares for years to come...

[grimbold]

Awesome.

Bonus points for the moral dilemma where a town is partially (or entirely) infected, but people are still mid-disease and the cure isn't handy. What do you do with those people doomed to become zombies, but still entirely human?

That'll give any non-evil party nightmares for years to come...

especially with an Aasimar paladin :) and a LG wizard n the party
i did that once
it was an intersting rping experience,
the wizard ended up teleporting in some clerics and boarding himself up in a house with the rest of the party except for the paladin who was immune. the paladin was 'accidentally knocked out for the duration by the barbarian. Heronious was not pleased to say the least :).