Woes of a Tier1 in a non-optimized party

[aeauseth]

I'm playing an Eldritch Diciple (see thread) that is moderately optimized. The party has a competant Druid and Rogue. The Psion does quite well (depens on situation) and then there is the Paladin.

I don't know his exact build, but the Paladin can capture spells and fire them back (spellfire?) He is wearing light armor (for movement reasons) and at level 9 he has an AC of 22.

The DM is having trouble hitting my 40+ AC, yet easily hits Paladin. The party balance is obviously upset and the DM let me know that. I reworked my character by using inferior armor and choosing not to use some buffs, which brought my AC to 23.

My experience is that a Level 9 Fighter type should have an AC of 20+HD or AC29 in this case. I actually use this Armor Class Guide.

I've talked with the DM and he is more concerned about roleplaying and the flavor of the character. As long as the Paladin is happy with the holy/diety aspect and gets to use his spellfire, there's no reason to pressure the Paladin to change. I don't necessarily disagree, however I'm being benchmarked against his damage output & AC, which puts a crimp in my style (er: Powergamer).

I've made an effort to make subtle suggestions to the Paladin about magic items (which he largely ignores), and he realizes that my AC is incredibly high (before my de-tune).

I don't mind de-tuning my character a bit to fit within the party, but I suspect the problem will get worse as we approach level 20. I don't want to run around naked just so my AC doesn't overshadow our Paladin's.

This is a new group for me. I'm used to powergamers, not role players. I must admit that the story telling of this particular DM is excellent, I don't want to leave! I suspect low AC and overall character optimization isn't important to this role playing group.

So what to do? I'm trying to get his email/phone number before our next session. I will attempt to determine if he is even interested in increasing his AC, if so I'll provide some assistance. I'm under the impression he is a seasoned player (knows most of the rules and such, and has DM'd before).

I re-read the Tier article and it discusses the problems of Tier 1's playing with Tier 5's.

My obvious path forward is to try to be more party buff centric and see how things go from there. Any other suggestions?

[Tengu_temp]

How powerful are you in comparison to the other members of the party? If you're at the same power level then it's not you who should weaken his character anymore, it's the paladin who should strengthen his. Unless he doesn't mind, in which case the DM is not supposed to mind either.

[Sinfonian]

It sounds like you're approaching the immediate issue fairly well, attempting to help the player as you can.

Venturing deeply into YMMV territory:
However, you need to figure out something in regard to the underlying problem: different viewpoints on objective and method with this group.

You say that this current group is much more interested in roleplaying and the story aspect of the game, while you are used to a much more power/mechanics-oriented focus to your games. I think you may need to figure out exactly what you want from the game. If you want pure optimization, and the group would be happy all playing straight fighters with a healbot cleric if it told a good story, then that's a fairly important difference to understand. I'm not saying that you have to surrender the part of the game you want, just understand exactly what you want, and see how it would fit in relation to that group's playstyle.

[aeauseth]

How powerful are you in comparison to the other members of the party? If you're at the same power level then it's not you who should weaken his character anymore, it's the paladin who should strengthen his. Unless he doesn't mind, in which case the DM is not supposed to mind either.

From a melee point of view the entire party does about the same amount of damage. My AC was 40 now is 23, Druid is 30, Rogue is ~24, Psion is ~23. So Paladin has the lowest AC. The Druid is almost as powerful as I am (full caster, but inexperienced player). The others are slightly below my power level. Paladin is WAY below, largely due to lack of AC but also because he is a Tier 5.

[Tengu_temp]

From a melee point of view the entire party does about the same amount of damage. My AC was 40 now is 23, Druid is 30, Rogue is ~24, Psion is ~23. So Paladin has the lowest AC. The Druid is almost as powerful as I am (full caster, but inexperienced player). The others are slightly below my power level. Paladin is WAY below, largely due to lack of AC but also because he is a Tier 5.

In that case ask the paladin how does he feel about the whole thing. If nobody in the party has any complaints then the DM should not try to enforce further rebalancing. Tell him to stop measuring you and the paladin without even looking at the rest of the group - it's not your fault that you're so much above his power level when everyone else in the party is.

[Zaydos]

From what your first post said the real problem isn't your power level but just your impossible to hit AC. Initially it was 10 or more (possibly 20 since you didn't specify what 40+ meant) above the rest of the party; which means monsters with a 50% chance of hitting the druid (a CR 9 black dragon) have a 5% chance of hitting you, and a 85% chance of hitting the paladin. If the druid doesn't need to tone his down below 30 you should probably be allowed to stay around 30.

[Analytica]

A group which is more story-focused and less powergaming-focused generally won't mind homebrew. That is what I would suggest in this case. If the paladin is already something so rare and holy as a spellfire user, have the DM give them a homebrewed template which synergizes well with both spellfire and paladin. Have it come with some cool non-mechanical drawbacks. Yes, this is "unfair". However, as I said, a group like yours probably won't mind that as long as the story supports it.

For example: the paladin is struck and dies. They find themselves in the presence of their deity, wherein you could have like a cutscene with everyone else playing archons making up cryptic prophesies on what the paladin is supposed to accomplish. Have them be filled with the divine fire of the deity, wake again from the dead and single-handedly save the party as it turns out this particular villain had regeneration/spellfire. From now on, their eyes glow silver or something like that, and some situations of great evil brings forth some form of holy fire rage which forces them to succeed on will saves or act against that evil. In return, maybe they can spend spellfire spell levels to gain massively increased AC or DR, immunities or flight, channel spellfire through their smites, and trade smite/turn attempts for spellfire spell levels.

[ericgrau]

This isn't a matter of tiers it's a matter of optimization. The paladin should be out-damaging you regardless. That's what martial classes do better than anyone. The tiers are really about versatility (something martial classes often lack), and even then they're a poor guideline at best.

If your AC is higher than someone in heavy armor that does need to be fixed. But beyond that you need to match your optimization level to your group either by boosting their optimization like you've been trying to do or by lessening yours. Don't pick the most OP feats and items out there, try taking more standard items instead. Having a build with PrCs and 4 classes when he's a straight paladin is another major issue, but it's too late to reverse that. If you're still out-damaging the paladin after all that then ya it's his fault for playing so poorly, but you'll just have to suck it up and reach some kind of compromise. i.e., keep helping him optimize and tone your own build back a bit.

[StreetPizza]

To me, it seems that the paladin is probably going against optimization for flavor purposes, hence him mostly ignoring your character optimization suggestions. If not and he's actially willing to bend a few of his character's roleplay-based rules for better stats, maybe being persistent with the character optimization requests could help.

Still, with the game being what it is, my biggest recommendation would probably have been to simply get yourself a lower-tier character and optimize less, but looking at what you've been through with your group, I'm pretty sure you know this already.

As more of a quick fix, if increasing the paladin's AC is what you want to tackle immediately, here are a few questions and suggestions:

-How dead-set is he on keeping the light armor that he's wearing? Would it be too far of a stretch to ask him to put on some full plate or, if he really wants that extra 10 feet, at least mithral medium armor or something with the Haste enchantment?

-How are his magical item-based AC enhancements and his capability to buy them? If it really comes down to it, the DM could probably work in a gift from his deity in the form of a Ring of Protection or an Amulet of Natural Armor, but like you said, AC won't be the only gap when the party gets near 20.

Also, as an unrelated question, how interested in the RP/Story aspect of the game are you? Being a character optimizer, you don't seem like the type to go for this kind of game, but here you are, and you seem to be enjoying it enough to not give up on it just because of this. That's shattering quite a few expectations.

EDIT: Just read the part where you said he mostly ignores magical items. Definitely convince him to get some of those, especially in the AC increasing category, unless he, for an RP reason, willingly abstains from magical protection, in which case you should suggest to the DM to work in some "divine intervention".

Also, his decent knowledge of the rules and previous DMing experience might indicate a seasoned player, but not knowledge of character optimization or the tier system at all. I, for example, didn't find out about tiers until about three years after my first D&D game when I logged on to GitP (of course, I played with a fairly small group for all three of those years, but there's an example of how you could be experienced but not know character optimization).

[aeauseth]

Some good suggestions. I can't find the Paladin's email, so I may have to wait until the next session. I was thinking about offering to cast Greater Luminous Armor on him. That should bring his AC back into the heavy armor territory, yet still allow him his movement. Heck, he could probably keep on his light armor, although it wouldn't really provide him any additional benefit.

Instead of relying solely on my persistant buffs, mayby I could focus more on the buffer/healer role to make our Paladin shine.

[Kylarra]

Offering to buff your allies seems like a good idea, you'll still be able to take advantage of your DMM and buffs, but the spotlight won't be on you.

[Greenish]

Also, as an unrelated question, how interested in the RP/Story aspect of the game are you? Being a character optimizer, you don't seem like the type to go for this kind of game, but here you are, and you seem to be enjoying it enough to not give up on it just because of this. That's shattering quite a few expectations.

Yeah, who'd have thought.

[Psyx]

It's always a problem when someone remotely competent chooses the 'best' character class in a group of players who don't worry about the numbers.

I always seize on these chances to play a 'poor' character class or concept without being left in the dust. Because a well-managed Tier 99 character can be as competent as a poorly managed T1, it's basically a great time to kick back and play the characters that you've always liked the look of or had a good idea for but never have because they sucked.

Failing that, making everyone else awesome is a good way forward.

[Iferus]

I had a similar problem; I have solved it by using my optimization skills on tier 3+ characters with PrC's that do not go up a tier.

[Diarmuid]

So, I think it probably would have been worth noting in your original post that you're utilizing DMM. That takes your Tier1 and takes it even higher into the upper echelon compared with something like a Paladin.

It probably would have been a better idea to see what kind of group this was before you joined and then made a char that better fit in, though I'm confused why you were forced to bring your AC down to 23 when the Druid is sitting up at 30.

[JaronK]

I'm definitely a fan of focusing your power through the weaker member of the party, which is to say buffing the heck out of him so he can run into the forefront of the battle and shine there.

JaronK

[DragoonWraith]

Honestly... you have two Tier 1's, a Tier 2, a Tier 4, and a Tier 5. One Tier 1 is inexperienced but nonetheless doing it well (unsurprising, it's a Druid), the Tier 2 is doing quite well, and the Tier 4 has his niche which isn't being stepped on much by the higher Tiers (yay for skillmonkeys?). In which case, the Paladin seems like the odd-man out, and it's not even remotely reasonable for everyone to have to change so that the Paladin doesn't have to. There are numerous Paladin fixes in the homebrew section, or you could suggest Crusader, or you could just do something simple like giving him a Bard's spellcasting progression and adding some 5th and 6th level spells to his list, along with suggesting Battle Blessing and maybe some mount-related stuff.

But so long as most of the party is high-Tier, and competing reasonably well with you, I don't really see this as your problem. Now, before your self-nerf (i.e. with the 40 AC), you probably were a bit of a problem, but you aren't now. DMM might be a little over-kill, but possibly not compared to the Druid and Psion. If the problem continues, you may need to speak with the DM about the possibility of him continuing this chat with the other player.

[true_shinken]

If the paladin has spellfire, and you are a warlock... just overload his reserves with your eldritch blast.
Have him check Magic of Faerun for the spellfire PrC there. It can get quite nasty... and it might fit his rp aspect.

[Skorj]

Some options: buff the heck out of the paladin, or make use of presidigitation to "reverse pick-pocket" him the magic items he needs. If you enjoy optimizing, and optimizing your character isn't well received, take on the real challenge of optimizing a pally who dean't want to be optimized. It should at least provide you with some entertainment without being too disruptive.

"He hits, my AC is 22".
"Err, no, actually your AC is 35 now, and your opponent has a 50% miss chance - bit of a mystery how that happened."

[Flickerdart]

Crank up your Bluff and convince him IC that his god is giving him boons while really it's just you buffing him.

[Emmerask]

It's always a problem when someone remotely competent chooses the 'best' character class in a group of players who don't worry about the numbers.

I always seize on these chances to play a 'poor' character class or concept without being left in the dust. Because a well-managed Tier 99 character can be as competent as a poorly managed T1, it's basically a great time to kick back and play the characters that you've always liked the look of or had a good idea for but never have because they sucked.

Failing that, making everyone else awesome is a good way forward.

100% this,
you can take those classes that you would have never chosen otherwise, green star adapt or another caster prc that only has half spellprgression? no problem in such a game you will still be powerful enough

[Skorj]

100% this,
you can take those classes that you would have never chosen otherwise, green star adapt or another caster prc that only has half spellprgression? no problem in such a game you will still be powerful enough

Wow, yeah, to me Green Star Adept actually looks like a ton of fun, in a game where it fits. In any case, I second the notion of playing a colorful, weak-Tier PrC that you would ordinarily bypass.