[3.5]Need New Character Advice

[LansXero]

Hello everyone;

Im (probably) about to join a new group; their adventure is already half-way, and they are all level 5. The party consists of a dwarven fighter (defensively focused), a dwarven cleric (player is new and the other dwarf's girlfriend, so she plays like a healbot / turnbot for everyone most of the time, which I dont like, frankly), an elven wizard (not sure the school spec; seems blaster-ish, rules lawyer but also a cheater, dislike him the most), a human rogue (roleplayer, not worried one bit about contributing in combat or optimizing) and a fighter/ranger going into Bow Order PRC.

The DM is pretty bad, but Ive only ever DM'ed since I started playing RPGs so ANY chance to play is a gods-send. I point this out because I want to make a very simple, very straight-forward, no cheese kind of character. We already had an impasse where he turned down several of my character ideas, in order:

- A warblade is way overpowered and ToB is a book only for arena-like mindless combat. He was happy when he thought maneuvers where an spellcaster's splatbook, but giving those to melee? WAY TOO MUCH. O. K.
- A Binder is way overpowered. Changing "class" every day would obsolete everyone and make me a jerk. Also, no dark or evil themes in his "world". O. K.
- Dragonfire Adept is way overpowered. Spamming AoE shouldn't be possible, and Im a cheating powergamer for wanting that. O. K.
- Warlock is a no go either, even though it IS in one of his approved books. No evil clause and all that.
- Orc barbarian was banned too, not on the basis of barbarian but on the basis of Orc. +4 to A SINGLE STAT?!! INCONCEIVABLE (literal quote).


ANYWAYS, to cut things short, allowed books are Core + Complete Adventurer / Arcane / Divine. Maybe something else on a case-by-case basis, but as you can see its not a very open minded DM. I was thinking either a tripping human fighter 2 / something else (pure fighter would bore me to tears) or something to help relieve the cleric from healbot duty and let her play. Or something that could out-blast the blaster wizard so I can laugh at him. Im sure even with so little material to work with, if anyone can come up with something interesting, its you guys!. It would be a lot better if it was good out-of-the-box, although I dont mind waiting a couple of levels for it to shine; I'd be starting at level 5 unless Im mistaken.

[sciencepanda]

What if you have a Warlock, but Chaotic Good, and plot-wise gaining it's powers from a fey-based source?

[Seffbasilisk]

Level 5?

Go druid. Halfling druid. I'd say Strongheart halfling, but that might be nixed.

Middle aged if you want the wis boost.

Be small, quiet, humble unassuming.

Then cast Entangle. Then Plant Growth. Call Lightning.

Then turn into a bear. A bear they can't run from, as their move speed is 0. A bear that can call lightning from a cloudless sky.

[LansXero]

Level 5?

Go druid. Halfling druid. I'd say Strongheart halfling, but that might be nixed.

Middle aged if you want the wis boost.

Be small, quiet, humble unassuming.

Then cast Entangle. Then Plant Growth. Call Lightning.

Then turn into a bear. A bear they can't run from, as their move speed is 0. A bear that can call lightning from a cloudless sky.

That is a very good idea, except:
- There is already a druid, who is a new player (last session was his first, I forgot to mention him because he is almost a hireling for the wizard).
- The DM is very "realist": when I told the druid to stop doing 1d6 damage with his bow and use entangle instead, the DM said there were no plants to entangle things with inside the dungeon. Or near the swamp. Or in the graveyard. Im pretty sure I couldnt call lightning from a cloudless sky exactly for those reasons :(

[Seffbasilisk]

Call Lightning Explicitly works even if there are no storm conditions.

If no druid...hmm...

You seem to favor the character classes without a limit on their utility. This suggests to me, you're used to DMs that run the PCs to the ground, and keeps throwing encounters.


Maybe throw a wrench into it all, and play a Bard? The roleplayer might love you for it, you can be the face, and control a lot of situations. If you want to go combat later, you can pick up Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, or go with the Snowflake Wardance setup.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlock doesn't have to be 'evil'. It is 'chaotic OR evil'. You can be Chaotic Good and a Warlock with a Fay heritage background... point this out to GM?

Failing that, you have the following options:

1) Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Specialize in battlefield control and save or loose effects. Shut everything down, then smile serenely when they brag about how many kills they get. Sevenfold veil just so you won't have to worry about personal safety.

2) Gatling Tripper. Spiked Chain + Improved Trip. See if you can get some kind of size increase. May have to dip Sorcerer for Enlarge Person.

3) Druid/Master of Many Forms. Which just happens to be in CAdv...

4) Bard/Virtuoso. Min/max your Inspire Courage. Look up what Masterwork Instruments can do (Complete Adventurer as well), and which ones give a bonus on it. Give everyone a +5 to hit and damage.

[LansXero]

If you want to go combat later, you can pick up Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, or go with the Snowflake Wardance setup.

Away from books atm, so where are those from and what do they do?

Bard seems interesting, can they be good in combat too or just support?
And if I were to make a tripper, which feats are a must to make it work? Thanks for the help so far :D

Also, I do know a warlock doesn`t have to be evil, but that's crappy holier-than-thou DMs for you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Away from books atm, so where are those from and what do they do?

Bard seems interesting, can they be good in combat too or just support?
And if I were to make a tripper, which feats are a must to make it work? Thanks for the help so far :D

Also, I do know a warlock doesn`t have to be evil, but that's crappy holier-than-thou DMs for you.

Improved Trip and Exotic Weapon Proficency: Spiked Chain are both very handy for a tripper build. Combat Reflexes help if you want to use this defensively more than once a round. Remember, he provokes by moving, then you use the AoO to trip (an attack action), then get a free attack on the now prone target, who can't keep moving because he's prone.

Bards can be pretty good in combat. ToB is banned, fine. They still have the same BAB as a Rogue, and you can run one as a tripper as well as a buffer.

You need to get a Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium). It increases Inspire Courage. There's also a spell in the Spell Compendium called Inspirational Boost (1st level Bard spell) which increases it further by +1.

Bards can also use a Whip, which can be used to trip anyone within 15', although you provoke an AoO if you use it while someone is in melee with you.

Is Psionics available? A one-level dip in Psionic Warrior gives you Expansion, and then you go into pyrokeneticist. Flame Lash does Whip stuff better. It's all touch attacks, does better damage, threatens, and in general, is a hell of a lot of fun to play with

[Thurbane]

For the record, creating a "revenge" character to point out how classes on the approved list can still be broken is rarely a good idea. It usually just leads to ill feelings within the group.

A much better idea is to try and talk rationally with the DM, and try to convince him that some of the classes that are on his banned list really aren't overpowered.

Failing that, take something from the approved list, but just play it to have fun, not neccessarily to twink it out to teach the DM a lesson.

My 2 cents anyway - I've seen a lot of these kind of threads, and the number of "OMG, just play a cheesed out Wizard or Druid and show him how broken they can be!". type comments always scares/disappoints me...

[snoopy13a]

The party doesn't seem very optimized so it might be bad form to produce an extremely effective character.

Also, they have:
A fighter
A cleric
A wizard
A druid
A rogue
A bow-using fighter/ranger

So, that gives you license to try something a little different and fun. One possible niche is a party face so a bard or high charisma rogue (especially if your party rogue is low on the social skills) or even paladin might be a good choice. Or perhaps a sorceror.

A trip-fighting Bard is a neat concept (especially with a whip) but it could be spreading your ability scores fairly thin as one would need relatively high Str, Dex, Cha, and an Int of 13.

I'm going to suggest a braggart (high Bluff skill) Halfling sorceror simply because it might be fun to tweak the wizard's player nose a little .

[LansXero]

For the record, creating a "revenge" character to point out how classes on the approved list can still be broken is rarely a good idea. It usually just leads to ill feelings within the group.

A much better idea is to try and talk rationally with the DM, and try to convince him that some of the classes that are on his banned list really aren't overpowered.

Failing that, take something from the approved list, but just play it to have fun, not neccessarily to twink it out to teach the DM a lesson.

My 2 cents anyway - I've seen a lot of these kind of threads, and the number of "OMG, just play a cheesed out Wizard or Druid and show him how broken they can be!". type comments always scares/disappoints me...

Far from it; if anything is "revenge-driven" is only trying to take the wizard-player down a notch; he is by far the most experienced one on the table (even more so than the DM it seems) but he both cheats (maximized empowered fireball at lvl 5 with almost core-only?) and tries to dictate what everyone at the table HAS to do (like rounding things up so he can blast them with the previously mentioned fireball).

Aside from that, the party might seem like it has all its bases covered, but its far from that. The blaster wizard only blasts, and when that fails he uses a light crossbow :S. The "tanking" fighter only tanks by means of having a high AC; their feat choices are pretty bad (toughness x2 and great fortitude iirc), etc. I was leaning more towards a control / utility character to make things easier for THEM, as well as to deal with DM shenanigans of artificially prolonging encounters by having more and more monsters appear.

A Paladin might be a good idea too, since its an undead heavy campaign. How is a battle-cleric at level 5? viable? Would take some healbot-duties from the newbie cleric, and show her what the class can do. Would that be a good idea?

[StreetPizza]

Given how (seemingly) inexperienced some of the players are and how low-tier and unoptimized some of their characters are, I think the DM is a little ham-handed in outright banning some classes. Really, there are better ways to handle this kind of thing and those ways often don't end up irritating the players, but still, his intent is good: make sure everyone has fun, 'cause D&D should always be about fun.

That being said, helping the Dwarf Cleric might be a good idea, seeing as how she probably won't have any fun if all she does is heal all day.

[Petrocorus]

You can try the Bardadin:
Bard 2 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

BAB +16 CL 18 Fort +9 / Ref +10 / Will +20 Skill points 102

You need Extra music for qualifying for Lyric Thaumaturge and Combat casting for Abj. Champ. You can be a buffer, a bit of a gish, the party face (this party seem not to have one) which is good for role-playing.

You can also try
Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumatuge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Unseen Seer 8

BAB +14 CL 20 Fort +7 / Ref +11 / Will +18 Skill points 126

Less able to fight, but with full casting. And you don't need extra music.

Both this build should be workable at lvl 5 and none should outshine the other PC. Not the wiz or the cleric at least.

[LansXero]

Wow a full build is great, thank you. Im not sure how well a Paladin of Freedom will fit into the DM's rather narrowminded view of the classes, but its worth a shot. Im really considering a bard now, lets see:

Could I, using the books mentioned in the OP, make a tripper Orc bard with at least some improvement to Inspire Courage? Would levels of Paladin of Freedom hurt this? Dunno why, I like the idea of an Orc Bard using wardrums and tribal chants to inspire comrades. Im not really sold in the "standard" flavor of bard.

[Vemynal]

you should totally do the bardadin!

sounds fun, personally i'm writing that one down for later!

[Shenanigans]

I really like the idea of bardadin also. Nothing like giving your character a nice case of SAD.

Personally, I think a dedicated tripper build, while very fun, might be very frustrating for what seems like an already peevish DM. I once played a tripping build with a rather reasonable DM who still got very riled by my tripping of nearly every monster.

If you do go with it, maybe consider a combo charger/tripper build (I like Improved Trip/Knockdown/Leap Attack) which could be fun, pretty effective, and not so overwhelming as to really upset the DM. A size increase (for easier tripping and more baddies in trip range) isn't bad either, maybe via Goliath Barbarian sub level (if you can use Races of Stone) or just potions of enlarge person. If he lets you go Goliath, the jump checks for Leap Attack can be even easier.

Either way, I hope this goes well for you. Good luck!

[Snake-Aes]

LansX, how willing are you to put up with such a dm? He seems to be really far up into the "The world is the way I want it and you lesser mortals shall obey". It's the type of guy that irks me :|

A beatstick cleric is likely your best choice...except for it to be any functional you will overshadow everyone.

[Psyx]

Tripping fighter = bad idea. It's a dull one-trick pony which will annoy your GM very quickly.

Likewise, playing characters to show others up is transparent and annoying.


I'd probably go bard. You'll be flexible, so if you pull out a trick the GM nixes, you haven't perma-screwed your character, because you'll have more. If the group don't min-max, you can sit back, relax and not worry about it too much and do some face-man roleplaying.

Or a paladin. Paladins are seen as 'weak', but if you're not in a min-maxxed group you can grab onto the chance to play one without being turned to pate or completely outshone by others. heck: Maybe even a monk!

[Keld Denar]

Halfling Bard with a sling works well. As a halfling, you get MASSIVE bonuses if you even look at a pebble. Crank up Inspire Courage high enough and you can make that pebble deadly. I'm talking +16 or so to hit with regular Inspire Courage. Nothing rules bendy about it. If you can, take Dragon Magic, and your character will vicariously deal more damage then the entire party combined, including your own slinging contribution. Its not hard to get silly with a Bard when you start looking around at various books.

[Petrocorus]

Wow a full build is great, thank you. Im not sure how well a Paladin of Freedom will fit into the DM's rather narrowminded view of the classes, but its worth a shot. Im really considering a bard now, lets see:

If your DM don't want a Paladin of Freedom, you can try
Battle Dancer 1 / Fighter 1
The Battle Dancer is from a Dragon Compendium. I can send you the pdf if you want. It has full BAB, good Ref saves, 4 skill points / lvl and the same AC bonus than the monk but Cha based. You might also take the Fighter variant that give Sneak Attack, from UA, i believe, but SRD anyway.
Don't use the Thug variant, you need the armour proficiency for Spellsword. And you don't need 2 more skill points.
Taking the Urban tracking feat at some point may be useful in a campaign where fighting is not main goal.

Edit: Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 have also a lot of good features. Better saves, better skills, and the trrack feat can always be useful.

You can also use the Savage bard from UA. You lose some linguistic feature but gain the Survival skill and some nature related spell. Lower Ref and better Fort.

Could I, using the books mentioned in the OP, make a tripper Orc bard with at least some improvement to Inspire Courage? Would levels of Paladin of Freedom hurt this? Dunno why, I like the idea of an Orc Bard using wardrums and tribal chants to inspire comrades. Im not really sold in the "standard" flavor of bard.

For the tripping, i would not know, i'm not good enough in the feat-fu.
You can read the Horizon tripper for some inspiration for the feat, but remember you don't have so many feat and you need two for Extra Music and Melodic Casting, or you give up Lyric Thaumaturge and its bonus spell slot and spell known from the wizard list.

For Inspire Courage, your lvl of Lyric Thaumaturge and half your lvl of Sublime Chords stack for the efficiency of you bardic music, but not for determining what bardic music you can do. I known there are some feat for this, you can try to look for the crystal keep feat list.

For the Orc, remember they have a -4 Cha modif.

[Greenish]

I recommend against playing a paladin with a DM you're not sure you can trust.

Combat cleric could work okay, and bards are of course great.

[Edit]: Orcs have -2 Cha, which is a bit of a bother, but an orc (or half-orc) bard could still work.

[Telonius]

Spellthief1/Monk2/SpellthiefX might be a decent choice, given the party's optimization level (and DM's restrictions). With that many people in the party, finding a Flanking target isn't going to be that big of a problem. It's going to have useful things to do without outshining anyone. You'll have trapfinding, but not enough skillmonkey stuff so that the Rogue feels left out. The two levels in Monk will get you Stunning Fist for free (remember, a Stunned foe loses Dex to AC), better Fort and Reflex saves, and slightly better hitpoints.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can always do a 'gish' build...

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist10

Still gets a +16 BAB at level 20. You're a spell level behind everyone else, but you are going to be more effective with what you have, so you should fit in power-wise.

At 5th level, you will be Pal2/Sorc3. You don't have 2nd level spells yet, but the wizard has 3rd level spells. This makes you seem less effective than he is. This is good, because we don't want to completely overpower the game, just kinda blend in.

Grab a Mithral Chain Shirt, but don't put it on until you get Spellsword.

Spells of note: Grease, Shield, Enlarge Person (That's your battlefield control, your defensive buff, and your offensive buff).

Feats of note: Exotic Weapon Proficency: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, your 6th level feat will need to be Combat Casting, as a prerequsite for AbChamp.

Drop a Grease down to battlefield control and help get the mooks all nice and clumped up so Blasto can lay down the boom. Otherwise, Enlarge Person and go to town with Tripping and 20' reach.

The following level, pick up Glitterdust

[El Dorado]

You can always try a monk. OTOH, that might get shot down because of all of their class features.

[Awnetu]

You can try the Bardadin:
Bard 2 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

BAB +16 CL 18 Fort +9 / Ref +10 / Will +20 Skill points 102

You need Extra music for qualifying for Lyric Thaumaturge and Combat casting for Abj. Champ. You can be a buffer, a bit of a gish, the party face (this party seem not to have one) which is good for role-playing.

You can also try
Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumatuge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Unseen Seer 8

BAB +14 CL 20 Fort +7 / Ref +11 / Will +18 Skill points 126

Less able to fight, but with full casting. And you don't need extra music.

Both this build should be workable at lvl 5 and none should outshine the other PC. Not the wiz or the cleric at least.

problem your dm will ban it on account of too many dips

[true_shinken]

I really wouldn't play in that game. It sounds like you won't have fun... or you will ruin everyone else's fun.

[Tetrasodium]

Ask him if you can use LA+0 races in monster manual. Go warforged and pickup juggernaut at 5 or 6 so you can have a laundry list of immunities :). Don't go out of your way to point out the handful of defensive snags and huge gaping holes they have where a few spells work different or simply undo their immunities. Convince the wizard to snag a couple repair spells for you.

[LansXero]

I really wouldn't play in that game. It sounds like you won't have fun... or you will ruin everyone else's fun.

The players are a blast to be around, and Im not going to try and ruin anyone else's fun. I DM two other groups on the weekends and I just want a break from DMing and play a bit instead; I know how important it is for a good atmosphere to give everyone their time in the spotlight and to make them feel valuable, thats why Im not asking for an ubercharger or OMG I KILLZ EVERYONEZ build; I want something to make the other members of the party feel better, more confident, less dependant on the wizard for everything and more free to play however they want without it causing a TPK :P

Ok, just talked a bit with the one player that brought the group to my attention. He brought some similar concerns up to the DM when they started the adventure, so from what he told me and the advice on this thread, lets see:

- Eberron material (warforged, feats, etc.) are out, because the game is strictly "Forgotten Realms only" or some other such nonsense.
- UA is also out because it "denaturalizes the game and Paladins are only the righteous protectors of justice, if you cant roleplay as one then play another class". So, probably not a good idea going Paladin to have the code shoved down my throat. So much for bardbarian with whirling frenzy too.
- You can only multiclass out to one base class and one prestige class. Prestige classes have to be pre-aproved even if they are in the allowed material.
- Any non "traditionally fantasy player" races are heavily discouraged. My friend says his goblin cleric who was CG and focused on healing (before the dwarves joined) got focused on by every. single. mob. the first encounter they were in; the party helped but somehow enemies kept appearing until the gobbo bit the dust. My friend took the hint and made a bland human.

On that account, I've settled for a Bardbarian Orc. Maybe Ill take Fighter2 and try to argue with him that he either lets me do that, or take flaws (ifeats are the only reason Im taking fighter anyways) then Barbarian 1 then Bard 2? If I remember correctly you can do some nifty things with rage and charisma based stuff like intimidate, right? I can be the counterpart to the rogue, he being all nice and suave and me being all orky (yes, Im going to be an orc, he can eat his dwarf/human/elf loving heart out).

The other option is Combat Cleric Orc. Would that work at level 5? Im really at a loss for combat cleric feats or the order to take them or if another class is needed. Also, any CG orky faerunian god? thanks for all answers so far, plenty of neat ideas both to play myself and to recommend to my players.

[Shenanigans]

Yeah, to echo what's been said, this guy is sounding less and less fun to play under with every post.

If you hadn't mentioned that UA was out, I'd recommend the Savage bard variant. It's got a nice flavor and would definitely work with an Orc or Half-Orc.

[WarKitty]

Umm...this is really starting to sound like a one-way trip to railroadtown. My impression is, no matter what you build, the minute you mess up the DM's plans you'll get nerfed. There is no build for that.