The Mighty Bonesnap (4E)

[tenshiakodo]

Friend of mine is starting up his old 4E campaign, and asked me to create a level 17 character. This is what I came up with:


"Bonesnap", level 17
Bugbear, Rogue, Blade Bravo
Build: Cutthroat Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Ruthless Ruffian
Rogue: Sharpshooter Talent
Sharpshooter Talent: Sharpshooter Talent (Crossbow)
Background: Geography - Forest (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 11, Dex 24, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 11.


AC: 32 Fort: 23 Reflex: 27 Will: 19
HP: 103 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +22, Thievery +20, Athletics +18, Perception +14, Intimidate +16, Acrobatics +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +8, Heal +7, History +8, Insight +7, Nature +7, Religion +8, Streetwise +9

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Fisted Shooter
Level 2: Impending Doom Style
Level 4: Underhanded Tactics
Level 6: Deadly Draw
Level 8: Bloodhound Style
Level 10: Strike and Shove
Level 11: Defensive Advantage
Level 12: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 14: Disheartening Ambush
Level 16: Expert Sneak

POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Disheartening Strike
Rogue at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue encounter 1: One-Two Punch
Rogue daily 1: Hounding Assault
Rogue utility 2: Adaptable Flanker
Rogue encounter 3: Enforced Threat
Rogue daily 5: Downward Spiral
Rogue utility 6: Sidestep Stance
Rogue encounter 7: Spring the Trap
Rogue daily 9: Profit from Weakness
Rogue utility 10: Daring Gamble
Rogue encounter 13: Daunting Attack (replaces Enforced Threat)
Rogue daily 15: Mind-Boggling Onslaught (replaces Hounding Assault)
Rogue utility 16: Denying Stance
Rogue encounter 17: Excruciating Reminder (replaces One-Two Punch)

ITEMS
Quenchquiver Hand Crossbow (Large) +4, Repulsion Feyleather Armor +4, Staggering Mace (Large) +4*

*I'm not sure what other items I'll be able to get, or want at this time.


Tactics-

Like any rogue, Bonesnap functions best when he has combat advantage against an enemy; he can gain this in

the following ways, in addition to the standard methods for doing so.

-Expert Sneak gives him CA if an enemy is deafened, immobilized, slowed, or weakened.

-Deadly Draw gives him CA until the end of his next turn when he pulls or slides an enemy to a square

adjacent to him.

-Adaptable Flanker, Profit from Weakness, Daring Gamble, Daunting Attack, Mind-Boggling Onslaught,

Excruciating Reminder, and Vicious Parry powers can help gain CA.


Once he has established Combat Advantage, Bonesnap can use his Disheartening Strike (thanks to Bloodhound

Style) to slide his opponent to a space adjacent to him for continuing CA with Deadly Draw. He can also

get his Deady Draw by pulling a target with Threatening Flourish+Taunting Barb.

Most of Bonesnap's attacks are Rattling, which impose a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of his

next turn, unless the target is immune to fear. Further, by reducing his Sneak Attack damage by one die,

he can impose a further -2 penalty to a target's attack rolls until the end of his next turn. Cocksure

Menace allows him to mark an enemy, giving them a further -2 to attack someone other than himself.

His Denying Stance can impose a -2 penalty to atacks if an enemy misses, and his Sidestep Stance gives him

a +2 power bonus to AC versus melee and ranged attacks, thus for at least two encounters per day, he can

boost his AC (note he also gets +2 AC from attacks made by enemies he has CA against).


Putting this all together, Bonesnap can negatively modify attacks made against either himself (rattling,

underhanded tactics, stance) or his allies (rattling, underhanded tactics, mark) by 6 points!

The majority of his attacks will add his strength bonus to damage. Not to mention his 1/turn sneak attack

(although he will only use 2d6 bonus damage), thus allowing him to fulfill his striker obligations.

He has several counterattack options: Riposte Reaction, Profit from Weakness, Vicious Parry, and Riposte Strike (although to

give Riposte Strike the Rattling Keyword will require either -1d6 Sneak Attack unless Mind-Boggling

Onslaught is in play). Riposte Strike is modified with Vigilante Justice and Impending Doom to be usable

on enemies who hit an ALLY, as well as giving an enemy a further -2 to attacks (!), although since Riposte

Strike doesn't slide enemies, CA may have to be reacquired the following turn.


Note that Disheartening Strike, Mind-Boggling Onslaught, and Excruciating Reminder can all be used with

Bonesnap's hand crossbow; his Two-Fisted Shooter Feat allows him to use the hand crossbow as an off-hand

weapon, as well as to reload it as a free action while carrying his mace. Further, whenever he scores a

critical hit, he gets a free RBA with the hand-crossbow; his Strike and Shove feat pushes the target 1

square away, which lowers the possibility of him drawing an AoO.

When everything is working properly, Bonesnap functions as a pseudo-tank/controller, placing enemies in a

Catch-22 situation where they are penalized for attacking either him or his allies! If it's not necessary

to try and lock down his opponents, he can simply un-nerf his Sneak Attack to deliver more damage.


I'm curious if this build will actually work the way I think it will, or if it's worth the effort in the first place to try and make a rogue into a secondary tank/controller. Suggestions/critiques/comments/advice are welcome!

[Kurald Galain]

Friend of mine is starting up his old 4E campaign, and asked me to create a level 17 character. This is what I came up with:

Looks pretty good.

Some suggestions: Ruthless Ruffian is a pretty bad option even if you want to use rattling powers; given that you have a good strength, I'd recommend Brutal Scoundrel for an impressive damage boost. Also, Rogue Weapon Talent is generally better than Sharpshooter.

You're really overdoing it in terms of Combat Advantage enablers. I'd suggest diversifying a bit, you really don't need nine of those. Flanking isn't that hard. You can retrain about half of those to other things, like damage boosts, Weapon Expertise, Nimble Blade, or a multiclass feat.

Since you're rattling, I'd recommend getting a Githyanki Silver Sword to turn your attacks into psychic, and take Psychic Lock. For other items, get some resistances, and the standard damage boosts like Iron Armbands.

Be aware that you've spent several feats boosting different at-will powers; you cannot use both at-wills at the same time, and you likely won't use either while you have encounter powers remaining. This is not such a great investment. Focus on boosting either riposte or disheartening, and spend your other feats elsewhere.

Sidestep Stance isn't so great since it only works on one enemy. Enforced Threat is not so great either, and neither is Spring the Trap. You don't have to spend all your powers on rattling, especially as many rattling powers are rather lacklustre (one-two punch, however, is very good). Finally, note the existence of a L10 daily stance that adds rattling to all your attacks.

[tenshiakodo]

Well, when I use a rattling attack, I get to add my Str bonus to damage, so I thought that was at least as good as adding my Str bonus to Sneak Attack, as the Brutal Scoundrel does.

You might be right on the enabling CA being overdone, I just never wanted to be in a situation where I couldn't get it. While flanking is easy to do, until I see the rest of the group, I can't be sure how often I could be in a flank position.

As far as Rattling goes, yeah, there's actually two dailies (an attack and the utility you mentioned) that would give me Rattling on all attacks for the encounter. Originally I had both of them, but then I thought to myself "I could get rattling with a Feat, I got lots of those!".

Tricking out the Riposte at-will is self-indulgent, but I figured, if I'm stuck with two exploits, I might as well make them both useful, even though I'm pretty sure I'll use Disheartening Strike a lot more often. But those couple of fights a day where I do set myself up to riposte like mad might be worth it (-8 to attacks sounds pretty sweet).

Again though, while there are other Feats I could take, a Feat to do something is < a Power to do something, right?

As far One-Two Punch, yes, it's a solid power, and I was loathe to give it up. However, in the end, the WotC character generator is convinced that I have to give up lower level powers at some point (this confused me, I didn't want to give up any of the powers I had, but it seems to force the issue), plus, the value of One-Two Punch does go down if you're trading away Sneak Attack dice.

[Hal]

If you're going to use a crossbow, you might want to consider Distant Advantage (flanked enemies grant you combat advantage at range). It's practically mandatory for making a rogue work at range.

[Mando Knight]

Well, when I use a rattling attack, I get to add my Str bonus to damage, so I thought that was at least as good as adding my Str bonus to Sneak Attack, as the Brutal Scoundrel does.

Two limitations to Ruthless Ruffian:
1.) Only Rattling powers.
2.) Only with clubs and maces.

Brutal Scoundrel, on the other hand, can work with any weapon he can deal a Sneak Attack with. Since light blades are superior to maces in most cases, especially for Rogues, and since it opens up the ability to add the damage bonus at range, and since you can use it with any power rather than just a Rattling one, Brutal Scoundrel is pretty much strictly better than Ruthless Ruffian.

[TheEmerged]

Two low-level suggestions.

Clever Strike is a rogue at-will which was released with the miniatures; it's in the character generator. The rogue in the party I DM has this power, and gets enough use out of it that sometimes he's not using all his encounter powers. It's essentially a 1[w] attack with a nigh-guaranteed combat advantage (there just has to be an ally adjacent).

Sneak In The Attack, level 2 utility encounter power from Martial Power, is one you may want to take a hard look at. Want to encourage people to help you get flanking? This power will reward them by allowing THEM to do sneak attack damage.

[tenshiakodo]

Hal: Distant Advantage is a really nice Feat, however I don't know how many melee characters the party will have at this time, the only characters I know about for certain are a Ranger and a Shaman. Bonesnap isn't primarily ranged at any rate, it's just an option for him.

Mando Knight: I guess you have a point; the idea was to use Rattling with all attacks anyways, if possible, so I never really gave it much thought, but I guess I would be better off with blades over maces. I'll go over the Ruthless Ruffian riders on my powers and see if I'd be losing out on anything good.

The Emerged: I overlooked Clever Strike since it's not rattling normally. It's really only good if there's some strange reason I can't just flank with the other character, but I have to admit, it's more useful than the Adaptable Flanker utility, since it's at-will, and then I could take Sneak in the Attack or Reap the Rattled.

I'll make some revisions to the build, thanks for the input!

[Mando Knight]

I'll go over the Ruthless Ruffian riders on my powers and see if I'd be losing out on anything good.

As I recall from the last time I built a thuggish Rogue, most Ruffian riders are (at least in MP1...) oddly enough Cha-based. That, and since Rogue DPR mostly comes from static bonuses and Sneak Attack anyway, the slightly larger [W] dice don't stack up to the +3 proficiency bonus.

Also, if you drop that 18 down to 16, you can bring up your Strength and at the same time put a bit into Cha/Wis and Con. Constitution is important for every class, especially those looking to fight on the front lines: that extra Surge and couple HP can go a surprisingly long way at times.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, if you drop that 18 down to 16, you can bring up your Strength and at the same time put a bit into Cha/Wis and Con.

I would strongly recommend against investing in five ability scores, simply because it doesn't help you with anything.

Str 16 +2 racial, Dex 16 +2 racial, Con 13 will make an excellent bonesnapper. If your DM allows backgrounds, then so will Str 14+2, Dex 18+2, Con 11 (using a background to key your hit points off dex).

True, your will defense isn't so great, but if you make it one or two points higher it still won't be great (and doing so eats into your fort defense, too). A +1 to str or dex will come up every single round, whereas a +1 to wis will come up once in a blue moon; this is not an even trade.

[tenshiakodo]

Ok, here's my revision. I decided to simply drop the ranged aspect entirely and focus on melee.


"Bonesnap", level 17
Bugbear, Rogue, Blade Bravo
Build: Brawny Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel
Rogue: Rogue Weapon Talent
Background: Geography - Forest (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 12, Dex 24, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 31 Fort: 27 Reflex: 33 Will: 23
HP: 104 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +22, Thievery +20, Athletics +18, Perception +15, Intimidate +14, Acrobatics +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +9, Heal +8, History +8, Insight +8, Nature +8, Religion +8, Streetwise +7

FEATS
Level 1: Versatile Duelist
Level 2: Underhanded Tactics
Level 4: Impending Doom Style
Level 6: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Level 10: Skill Power
Level 11: Defensive Advantage
Level 12: Psychic Lock
Level 14: Disheartening Ambush
Level 16: Heavy Blade Opportunity

POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue at-will 1: Clever Strike
Skill Power: Demoralize Foe
Rogue encounter 1: One-Two Punch
Rogue daily 1: Hounding Assault
Rogue utility 2: Reap the Rattled
Rogue encounter 3: Enforced Threat
Rogue daily 5: Duelist's Demand
Rogue utility 6: Ugly Finish
Rogue encounter 7: Circling Predator
Rogue daily 9: Crimson Edge
Rogue utility 10: Executioner's Mien
Rogue encounter 13: Toppling Slash (replaces Enforced Threat)
Rogue daily 15: Mind-Boggling Onslaught (replaces Hounding Assault)
Rogue utility 16: Vigilant Footwork
Rogue encounter 17: Blistering Outburst (replaces One-Two Punch)

ITEMS
Githyanki Silver Bastard sword (Large) +4, Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Amulet of Protection +4, Magic Snakeskin Armor +4

[Mando Knight]

I would strongly recommend against investing in five ability scores, simply because it doesn't help you with anything.

I'm not saying invest, just bump them up to around 12-13-ish, so you get a little boost to your HP and can dip into a wider variety of feats if you want.

Also, as a nitpick: if you want to backpedal the build a bit, you should put the feats in the correct order: Versatile duelist will always come before WP(Bastard Sword) for a Rogue, just because when playing the build through the levels you won't want to have an utterly useless feat for your first 5 levels.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not saying invest, just bump them up to around 12-13-ish, so you get a little boost to your HP and can dip into a wider variety of feats if you want.

Well, "bump them up" to 13 (which is what most feats require) means putting three points per stat in it, out of your 22 points total. Unless you have a concrete example of a feat you want, that strikes me as not such a great idea; and even then I'd limit it to one such feat for an off-stat.

HOTFL recommends 18/14/11/10/10/8 or 16/16/13/11/10/8; I very rarely see a reason to diverge from that.

[tenshiakodo]

Mando Knight: but they are in the correct order, he just retrained his 1st-level Feat later on. ^_^

Just kidding, I see your point and fixed the order somewhat. I'm a little concerned that so many of Bonesnap's utilities are daily; does anyone think that could be a problem?

[Mando Knight]

I'm a little concerned that so many of Bonesnap's utilities are daily; does anyone think that could be a problem?

It could be. I prefer encounter utilities myself (generally a touch more useful than some of the At-Will ones, while I don't have the "too awesome to use" syndrome like with the Dailies), but there are some daily Utilities that are a whole lot better than the Encounter ones. I tend to prefer ones with a lasting effect or can be activated as a free or Immediate action, so I don't waste them by accident.

[Kurald Galain]

I prefer encounter utilities myself (generally a touch more useful than some of the At-Will ones, while I don't have the "too awesome to use" syndrome like with the Dailies)

I tend to agree.

If it's a daily utility power, it had better have a sweeping effect on the rest of the battle (and that usually goes for daily item powers as well). There's also things like Certain Freedom which make me wonder why on earth that's a daily.

Also, be mindful of triggers. Out of turn effects are very good, and generally reactive effects are much better than proactive, because you get to pick when to use them. For instance, "trigger: you miss on an attack; effect: add +2 to the roll" is much more powerful than "minor action: +2 bonus to your next attack".

[UserClone]

Is there a Swordmage multiclass feat? Because if there is, Lightning Lure and/or the Aegis from Arcane Power are your friends...

[Kurald Galain]

Is there a Swordmage multiclass feat? Because if there is, Lightning Lure and/or the Aegis from Arcane Power are your friends...

Yes, but why would you want to use that on a Brutal Scoundrel rogue?

Also, multiclass feats don't let you use at-will powers like Lightning Lure, nor do they give you a full class feature like the Swordmage Aegis. At least, not unless you spend five feats and your paragon path on it.