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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    Ok, so having read through Weapons of Legacy as a point of interest for my own Eberron campaign, I can agree with the seeming consensus that it definitely could have been done better, and many facets of it are confusing or just not built up to snuff for the very interesting (by my standards) fluff. So, time for some rambling.

    Legacy Weapons

    The Old: To gain the benefits of a legacy weapon, one needs to be at least level 5, and must also perform a ritual tied to the weapon's backstory. There are three such rituals, ranked least (character level 5), lesser (character level 11), and greater (character level 17), and finishing them grants you the feat that allows the use of the abilities at that level and above as bonus feats. During the levels of building up your legacy weapon, you also end up investing hit points or skill points permanently, taking an attack, save, skill check, caster/manifester level penalty, or even losing spell slots or power points.

    Issues: Where to start. The abilities aren't staggered, making it feel choppy and half-arsed. Making investitures such as hit points makes some people wary of it. The rituals are cool, but they kind of make the existence of the Least/Lesser/Greater Legacy feats superfluous.

    The New: First off, getting rid of the Personal Costs as written. Whew. Now you don't have to worry about having your favorite weapon sundered or stolen and still suffering from those lowered hit points or attack or skill checks. However, there is some personal cost. First, the Least, Lesser, and Greater Legacy feats are no more, instead condensed into a single feat that you have to take out of pocket (unless your DM is nice). Said feat will also allow the expenditure of skill points into the Legacy "skill", which represent the bond with your weapon at the expense of other facets of your ability. Without further ado:

    Item of Legacy [Legacy]
    You awaken an item of legacy, drawing upon its powers.
    Benefit: You add the Legacy skill (details below) to your list of class skills for any class levels you possess or gain.
    At character level 5, you may perform the Least Legacy ritual (see Weapons of Legacy). Successful completion allows use of your Legacy Item's least abilities (see below).
    At level 11, you may perform the Lesser Legacy ritual. Successful completion allows use of your Legacy Item's lesser abilities.
    At level 17, you may perform the Greater legacy ritual. Successful completion allows use of your Legacy Item's greater abilities.
    You may only choose one legacy item which this feat (and the acquisition of least/lesser/greater legacy abilities) applies, even though the Legacy skill applies to any legacy item you possess.
    Special: You may gain this feat multiple times, each time applying it to a different legacy item you possess. However, you must still perform the legacy rituals to gain the abilities of a legacy item.

    Legacy (None; Trained Only)
    Your innate connection with legacy items allows you greater control over their abilities.

    Unlike other skills, the maximum amount of skill points you may put into the Legacy skill is equal to your character level.

    Check
    Learn Legacy Ritual: You may perform a check to receive a hint at the next Legacy Ritual you must perform to gain the abilities of a legacy item you possess. The DC for the check is described in the item's entry (see below).

    Glean Position: If you lose possession of a legacy item with which you have the Item of Legacy feat for, you may perform a check to learn the general position of your item as long as you are within 1 mile per character level, at DC15. Every mile between you and your item outside of this distance imposes a +1 modifier to this DC.

    Action
    Learn Legacy Ritual: This action takes 1 hour of peaceful meditation, successful or not.

    Glean Position: This action takes 1 minute of peaceful meditation, successful or not.

    Try Again
    Yes, but each check takes time.

    Synergy
    If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you receive a +2 bonus on Legacy checks to learn legacy rituals.


    There. Now isn't that a little bit more intuitive, or at least a mite less cluttered? Now, onto the actual items.

    Name and Description: Unchanged. This is fluff, after all.
    Nonlegacy Game Statistics: Also unchanged. No point in fixing what isn't broken.
    History: Same as above... Except, of course, each DC as described also applies to the Legacy skill in learning the Legacy Ritual of a legacy item.
    Legacy Rituals: Also unchanged.
    Wielder Requirements: Personal Costs are no more. Otherwise unchanged.
    Legacy Item Abilities: Ah, here we go. While you need to be at least level 5 and perform the least legacy to benefit from abilities, I have totally reformatted the acquisition of abilities. The abilities you gain are dependent on your ranks in the Legacy skill, but the abilities are split, somewhat like bloodlines, except replacing Minor/Intermediate/Major with Least/Lesser/Greater. When you complete the Least Legacy ritual, you gain the Least abilities of your legacy item at Legacy ranks 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. When you complete the Lesser Legacy Ritual, you gain the Least abilities of your legacy item at Legacy ranks 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10, and gain the Lesser legacy abilities at ranks 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. When you complete the Greater Legacy Ritual, you gain the Least abilities of your legacy item at Legacy ranks 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7, the Lesser legacy abilities at ranks 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 15, and the Greater legacy abilities at ranks 17, 18, 19, and 20.
    Adventure Seed: Unchanged.

    So... Mostly unchanged. But the one thing that was (abilities) is major. Now, what does this mean? Why don't you look at this table.

    {table=head]Legacy Rank|Least Ritual|Lesser Ritual|Greater Ritual
    1|Least|Least|Least
    2|-|Least|Least
    3|-|-|Least
    4|Least|Least|-
    5|-|-|Least
    6|-|Least|Least
    7|-|-|Least
    8|Least|Least|-
    9|-|-|Lesser
    10|-|Least|Lesser
    11|-|Lesser|Lesser
    12|Least|Lesser|-
    13|-|-|Lesser
    14|-|Lesser|Lesser
    15|-|-|Lesser
    16|Least|Lesser|-
    17|-|-|Greater
    18|-|Lesser|Greater
    19|-|-|Greater
    20|Least|Lesser|Greater[/table]

    Now, let's say you are character level 8, with maximum ranks in Legacy (8), and you've completed the Least Legacy Ritual for Desert Wind (Tome of Battle). Using the table above, you have the Desert Child ability, Fiery Slash three times per day, and Dance of Flame and Wind to grant a +2 to Dexterity.

    Using Desert Wind again, if you got to level 16, with maximum ranks in Legacy, completing the Lesser Legacy Ritual, Desert Wind would transform into a +2 flaming scimitar, and you would have Desert Child, Fiery Slash 3/day, Desert Draw, Fiery Blade, and Dance of Flame and Wind would now grant a +4 to Dexterity.

    Simple enough, yes?


    Now, what about people who want to make their own legacy item, as chapter 4 of WoL? Well, it would work the same, mostly, with the above changes in mind, as adjusted by the player/DM. Remember rule number 1, after all. There's also still room to keep the personal costs, though skill point expenditures are slightly harsh for also needing to spend points in the skill to use the item to its full potential. Finally, while I haven't accounted for it here, adjusting for epic should be easy enough.

    Comments? Questions? Concerns? Cookies?
    Last edited by strawberryman; 2010-09-22 at 10:21 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    I am not the best person to comment on this, but it looks fine to me.

    Run this by the people in the Age of Warriors Legacy Weapon Thread when people have reviewed it in this thread... they/we kinda got stuck on what replacement mechanic to use.
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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    Looks good to me. The arrangement of the table with how the Least/Lesser powers get bumped down levels if you do a higher Ritual seemed eh to me at first, but I can understand the reasoning behind it now.

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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    I like the change and even if I usally hate new skills, this one seem like a good idea and will certainly consider adding this to my campaing, however what was the real problem with Legacy Weapon for me was the Creation of such thing. The rules are confusing and even after reading things like Weapon of Legacy for Dummies thread I find it hard to create them.

    So a rule clarification so that its easier to built your own Weapon of Legacy would have been even better mixed with your idea.

    Still great job.

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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    I think this is a pretty neat way of making the rules usable with a minimum of modification. I really liked the underlying idea of emulating the great heroes with their iconic weapons, so I'm definitely going to use this.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    And two out of three leading anthropomorphic personifications of death agree on the matter.
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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xzoltar View Post
    I like the change and even if I usally hate new skills, this one seem like a good idea and will certainly consider adding this to my campaing, however what was the real problem with Legacy Weapon for me was the Creation of such thing. The rules are confusing and even after reading things like Weapon of Legacy for Dummies thread I find it hard to create them.

    So a rule clarification so that its easier to built your own Weapon of Legacy would have been even better mixed with your idea.

    Still great job.
    Well, as far as I read it, you get up to 6 Least and Lesser abilities, and 4 Greater.

    The lists are built in an A/B/C manner, and can remain as such. Two A abilities equal a B ability. Three A abilities equal a C ability. But you don't "trade them in", you give up a benefit for one level for a B ability, or two levels for a C ability.

    In fact, let's pull this into an example. Let's say you're making a Legacy Weapon with the least legacy ritual complete. For your first ability, at Legacy rank 1, you pick from Menu A (see chapter 4, Legacy ability menus); Feather Falling.

    For your next ability, you choose from the B menu; Cure Moderate Wounds. However, this means you receive no benefit at Legacy rank 4, instead gaining your ability at Legacy rank 8.

    Finally, you choose a C menu ability; Least Constant Companion, gaining a Celestial Owl as your summoned creature. This means you gain no legacy ability at Legacy rank 12 or 16, and receive the ability at rank 20.

    How does this look on a table?

    {table=head]Legacy Rank|Least Ritual
    1|Feather Falling
    2|-
    3|-
    4|[No Benefit, B ability]
    5|-
    6|-
    7|-
    8|Cure Moderate Wounds
    9|-
    10|-
    11|-
    12|[No Benefit, C ability]
    13|-
    14|-
    15|-
    16|[No Benefit, C ability]
    17|-
    18|-
    19|-
    20|Least Constant Companion (celestial owl)[/table]

    It works the same with Lesser and Greater abilities. If you choose a B-equivalent or C-equivalent ability, you trade them in (respectively) for one or two "dead levels".
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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    ...

    Don't have cookies, but I got a Kirby-thumbs-up: (b'_')b
    Mind if I sig this out of context? Kirby thumbs up is new favourite thing ever
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-09-24 at 09:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Mind if I sig this out of context? Kirby thumbs up is new favourite thing ever
    Go ahead.

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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    This, right here, is much less zany. Congrats. You made Legacy Weapons useful. Now to re-learn the system so I can make some.

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    Default Re: Fixing Legacy Items [3.5, Items, Feat, New Skill]

    I know, this is resurrecting a very old thread but the table was driving me nuts every time I needed to reference the source so I redid it for ease of viewing. So without further ado...

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberryman View Post
    Ok, so having read through Weapons of Legacy as a point of interest for my own Eberron campaign, I can agree with the seeming consensus that it definitely could have been done better, and many facets of it are confusing or just not built up to snuff for the very interesting (by my standards) fluff. So, time for some rambling.

    Legacy Weapons

    The Old: To gain the benefits of a legacy weapon, one needs to be at least level 5, and must also perform a ritual tied to the weapon's backstory. There are three such rituals, ranked least (character level 5), lesser (character level 11), and greater (character level 17), and finishing them grants you the feat that allows the use of the abilities at that level and above as bonus feats. During the levels of building up your legacy weapon, you also end up investing hit points or skill points permanently, taking an attack, save, skill check, caster/manifester level penalty, or even losing spell slots or power points.

    Issues: Where to start. The abilities aren't staggered, making it feel choppy and half-arsed. Making investitures such as hit points makes some people wary of it. The rituals are cool, but they kind of make the existence of the Least/Lesser/Greater Legacy feats superfluous.

    The New: First off, getting rid of the Personal Costs as written. Whew. Now you don't have to worry about having your favorite weapon sundered or stolen and still suffering from those lowered hit points or attack or skill checks. However, there is some personal cost. First, the Least, Lesser, and Greater Legacy feats are no more, instead condensed into a single feat that you have to take out of pocket (unless your DM is nice). Said feat will also allow the expenditure of skill points into the Legacy "skill", which represent the bond with your weapon at the expense of other facets of your ability. Without further ado:

    Item of Legacy [Legacy]
    You awaken an item of legacy, drawing upon its powers.
    Benefit: You add the Legacy skill (details below) to your list of class skills for any class levels you possess or gain.
    At character level 5, you may perform the Least Legacy ritual (see Weapons of Legacy). Successful completion allows use of your Legacy Item's least abilities (see below).
    At level 11, you may perform the Lesser Legacy ritual. Successful completion allows use of your Legacy Item's lesser abilities.
    At level 17, you may perform the Greater legacy ritual. Successful completion allows use of your Legacy Item's greater abilities.
    You may only choose one legacy item which this feat (and the acquisition of least/lesser/greater legacy abilities) applies, even though the Legacy skill applies to any legacy item you possess.
    Special: You may gain this feat multiple times, each time applying it to a different legacy item you possess. However, you must still perform the legacy rituals to gain the abilities of a legacy item.

    Legacy (None; Trained Only)
    Your innate connection with legacy items allows you greater control over their abilities.

    Unlike other skills, the maximum amount of skill points you may put into the Legacy skill is equal to your character level.

    Check
    Learn Legacy Ritual: You may perform a check to receive a hint at the next Legacy Ritual you must perform to gain the abilities of a legacy item you possess. The DC for the check is described in the item's entry (see below).

    Glean Position: If you lose possession of a legacy item with which you have the Item of Legacy feat for, you may perform a check to learn the general position of your item as long as you are within 1 mile per character level, at DC15. Every mile between you and your item outside of this distance imposes a +1 modifier to this DC.

    Action
    Learn Legacy Ritual: This action takes 1 hour of peaceful meditation, successful or not.

    Glean Position: This action takes 1 minute of peaceful meditation, successful or not.

    Try Again
    Yes, but each check takes time.

    Synergy
    If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you receive a +2 bonus on Legacy checks to learn legacy rituals.


    There. Now isn't that a little bit more intuitive, or at least a mite less cluttered? Now, onto the actual items.

    Name and Description: Unchanged. This is fluff, after all.
    Nonlegacy Game Statistics: Also unchanged. No point in fixing what isn't broken.
    History: Same as above... Except, of course, each DC as described also applies to the Legacy skill in learning the Legacy Ritual of a legacy item.
    Legacy Rituals: Also unchanged.
    Wielder Requirements: Personal Costs are no more. Otherwise unchanged.
    Legacy Item Abilities: Ah, here we go. While you need to be at least level 5 and perform the least legacy to benefit from abilities, I have totally reformatted the acquisition of abilities. The abilities you gain are dependent on your ranks in the Legacy skill, but the abilities are split, somewhat like bloodlines, except replacing Minor/Intermediate/Major with Least/Lesser/Greater. When you complete the Least Legacy ritual, you gain the Least abilities of your legacy item at Legacy ranks 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. When you complete the Lesser Legacy Ritual, you gain the Least abilities of your legacy item at Legacy ranks 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10, and gain the Lesser legacy abilities at ranks 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. When you complete the Greater Legacy Ritual, you gain the Least abilities of your legacy item at Legacy ranks 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7, the Lesser legacy abilities at ranks 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 15, and the Greater legacy abilities at ranks 17, 18, 19, and 20.
    Adventure Seed: Unchanged.

    So... Mostly unchanged. But the one thing that was (abilities) is major. Now, what does this mean? Why don't you look at this table.

    Legacy Rank Least Ritual completed Lesser Ritual completed Greater Ritual completed
    1 Least Least Least
    2 Least Least
    3 Least
    4 Least Least
    5 Least
    6 Least Least
    7 Least
    8 Least Least
    9 Lesser
    10 Least Lesser
    11 Lesser Lesser
    12 Least Lesser
    13 Lesser
    14 Lesser Lesser
    15 Lesser
    16 Least Lesser
    17 Greater
    18 Lesser Greater
    19 Greater
    20 Least Lesser Greater

    Now, let's say you are character level 8, with maximum ranks in Legacy (8), and you've completed the Least Legacy Ritual for Desert Wind (Tome of Battle). Using the table above, you have the Desert Child ability, Fiery Slash three times per day, and Dance of Flame and Wind to grant a +2 to Dexterity.

    Using Desert Wind again, if you got to level 16, with maximum ranks in Legacy, completing the Lesser Legacy Ritual, Desert Wind would transform into a +2 flaming scimitar, and you would have Desert Child, Fiery Slash 3/day, Desert Draw, Fiery Blade, and Dance of Flame and Wind would now grant a +4 to Dexterity.

    Simple enough, yes?


    Now, what about people who want to make their own legacy item, as chapter 4 of WoL? Well, it would work the same, mostly, with the above changes in mind, as adjusted by the player/DM. Remember rule number 1, after all. There's also still room to keep the personal costs, though skill point expenditures are slightly harsh for also needing to spend points in the skill to use the item to its full potential. Finally, while I haven't accounted for it here, adjusting for epic should be easy enough.

    Comments? Questions? Concerns? Cookies?
    Spoiler: The Bullybashers Gaunlets
    Show
    One of my characters is using this rule set with the Bullybashers Gauntlets detailed on page 43 of Weapons of Legacy. Just posting this for my own purposes and future referencing

    Legacy Rank Least Ritual completed Lesser Ritual completed Greater Ritual completed
    1 Sturdy Grip Sturdy Grip Sturdy Grip
    2 Knock Silly 2/day Knock Silly 2/day
    3 Solitary Warrior
    4 Knock Silly 2/day Solitary Warrior
    5 Cheat Death 1/day
    6 Cheat Death 1/day -
    7 Power of One +2
    8 Solitary Warrior -
    9 Rough and Tumble
    10 Power of One +2 +2 Gauntlets
    11 Rough and Tumble Giant Bearing
    12 Cheat Death 1/day +2 Gauntlets
    13 Power of One +4
    14 Giant Bearing Stone Gathering
    15 +3 Gauntlets
    16 - Power of One +4
    17 Frightful Presence
    18 Stone Gathering No Wound too big, Power of One +6
    19 Lightning Punch
    20 Power of one +2 +3 Gauntlets +4 Gauntlets
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