3.5 Rogues and Bucklers and Survivability

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"Shortsword + buckler would make a good rogue. A MW buckler has no non-proficiency penalty and helps the fragility issue that rogues have. In fact, it yields more damage-before-you-drop than TWF."

This was a reply to one of my questions about making shortswords and bucklers a viable combat option for a Sword of the Arcane Order.

What i would like to know, is whether or not it truly does yield more damage before you drop for a Rogue, as compared to TWF? Does it really increase your survivability that much?

If it does, why is it practically a requirement to have TWF as a Rogue? why do I never see rogue builds with bucklers instead of two shortswords?

How would one build such a Rogue?

As always, thanks in advance everyone!

[ffone]

I'd take both.

Improved Buckler Defense feat (C Adventurer I think?) Much better than the Two-Weapon Defense path.

Sure the buckler's only +1, but the enhancements are so cheap.

Or Improved Shield Bash and a light mw shield. IBD probably gives you more flexibility, though.

Or just bash with the mw light shield, no feats, and accept losing the armor bonus in rounds you use it. Will still help during rounds you don't (move + one attack rounds). When you're doing a TWF full attack of sneak attacks, hopefully you kill the thing anyway.

[Malbordeus]

if you got Shield Proficiency with a rogue, then Small/large mithril shield (with spikes) and the shield-bash chain (imp shield back, agile shield fighter et al) could combine to make a pretty awsome rogue.

[Shenanigans]

You could also try Shield Ward and the one from Lords of Madness (I forget the name) to up the usefulness of your shield on defense.

[jpreem]

If a shield is used for bashing, it counts as a martial bludgeoning weapon. So shield bashing is not a good idea for a one classed rogue. He would take a -4 penalty as rogue does not have martial weapon proficiencys.
(also he can't take improved shield bash as that requires shield proficiency)

[Hague]

EWP Buckler-axe, maybe?

Two-weapon defense works if you make your off-hand weapon into a Defending weapon. Though, there's something to be said of how nice it would be to have a source for shield enchantments.

[Jack Zander]

Generally its:

1 powerful enemy - TWF
Hordes - Rapier + Buckler (not sure why'd you use a shortsword over the rapier)

When you are facing 1 big bad, TWF gets it down quicker. It likely has a higher AC and so you need multiple attacks just to ensure you hit at least once or twice a round. Your AC hardly matters as it will hit you fairly easily with or without your buckler + enhancements unless you've optimized your AC.

Against hordes its a different story. You are likely to drop each mook with a single sneak attack and their ACs are not difficult to hit so extra attacks aren't necessary. Having a higher AC yourself helps tremendously because you are likely to be on the receiving end of several attacks each round.

If you wanted to build a versatile rogue, forgot what others said about shield bashing. The solution is much simplifier than that. Instead hold a rapier in your main hand, a shortsword in your off hand, and strap a buckler to your off hand as well. When you single attack you don't suffer TWF penalties and keep your buckler's AC bonus. When you do need to TWF you don't have to worry about quick draw and its only a -1 penalty to your off hand attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Lords of Madness (I forget the name)

Parrying Shield

[Shenanigans]

Parrying Shield

Thank you :)

Parrying Shield doesn't give the bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, etc., but it doesn't have any prerequisites either.

[Ruinix]

If a shield is used for bashing, it counts as a martial bludgeoning weapon. So shield bashing is not a good idea for a one classed rogue. He would take a -4 penalty as rogue does not have martial weapon proficiencys.
(also he can't take improved shield bash as that requires shield proficiency)

1 dip lev on fighter sneaky variant and done ^^

[John Campbell]

Or dip a couple levels of Ranger (or Urban Ranger) for the Martial (all) and Shield proficiencies, free TWF feat, favored enemy, extra +3 bumps to your Fort and Reflex saves, extra HP, and access to a spell list that includes cure light wounds, and, if you go Urban Ranger, invisibility. Ranger hurts a lot less than Fighter on the skill-points front, too.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Okay. I think everyone who mentioned TWF with Improved Buckler Defense is missing the point, as are people who suggest that bashing with a shield is a good idea.

I am not saying they aren't good ideas, they all seem sound and valid to me. However:

...it yields more damage-before-you-drop than TWF."

(my emphasis)

This implies that a rogue could use solely a finesse sword, and a buckler, without the use of TWF or shield bashing, to achieve more damage to an opponent/foes before dying than a rogue using two weapons, or a rogue using a blade and shield bashing. (which I believe still counts as TWF, it's just thinly disguised as shield use)

So, to the point. A rogue, without TWF, using a rapier or shortsword, or whatever finesse blade you want, and a buckler. How is it better, why is it better, and how would you make one, using primarily rogue levels. (75% or more?)

[Curmudgeon]

A rapier is a superior choice over a short sword once you figure Craven into the equation. The non-dice bonus damage from Craven will get multiplied on a critical sneak hit, and thus you want the wide threat range of a keen rapier. But a Rogue can't use dual rapiers for Two-Weapon Fighting and still expect to hit anything; the nonlight off-hand weapon makes your best attacks have a -4 penalty. With 3/4 BAB that's just not going to hit very often.

The main problems with Two-Weapon Fighting are

• It's a useless feat unless you're making full attacks, so it encourages you to go for stand-up fights against foes who can kill you.
• When you get more primary hand attacks you'll need more feats in the chain to also get off hand attacks, but each subsequent feat gives you an extra attack that's less likely to hit than the one before. Diminishing returns suck.
• There are other feat choices that will give you either more flexibility, more damage, or both.

For more damage and more flexibility, clearly Craven is a superior choice. It gives you +1 point of damage per character level to each sneak attack. As I've already noted, that damage gets multiplied on a critical hit. The benefits increase with no additional feats required. And because it's not restricted to Rogue levels, you have more flexibility to multiclass for other useful abilities (like Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight from Shadowdancer).

For more flexibility, Bracers of Striking (which grant Improved Unarmed Strike) plus Snap Kick is a superior alternative to TWF. Snap Kick allows you to add an unarmed attack whenever you make any melee attack. So that's one Snap Kick on all of the following:

• full attack
• standard action attack
• bonus attack (such as from Improved Trip)
• attack of opportunity

The penalty (-2 to all attacks) is the same as for TWF, but you're not forced into full attacks. If you dip into Shadowdancer you'll also satisfy all the prerequisites for Spring Attack. You can add a Snap Kick to Spring Attack but TWF won't help you. If you're visually undetectable (because of Hide in Plain Sight) you'll have a lot of enemies provoking AoOs as they move unaware through your threatened area, and Snap Kick will double your attacks on every AoO; again TWF won't help you.

[Jack Zander]

So, to the point. A rogue, without TWF, using a rapier or shortsword, or whatever finesse blade you want, and a buckler. How is it better, why is it better, and how would you make one, using primarily rogue levels. (75% or more?)

I've already addressed this:

Against hordes its a different story. You are likely to drop each mook with a single sneak attack and their ACs are not difficult to hit so extra attacks aren't necessary. Having a higher AC yourself helps tremendously because you are likely to be on the receiving end of several attacks each round.

In most any other situation, TWF is better.

I'm not sure why you want to know how to build one. Focus Dex, get weapon finesse, everything else is icing. Maybe go into Swashbuckler for a few levels.

[Curmudgeon]

In most any other situation, TWF is better.

Since I obviously disagree, would you like to try to support that statement?

[Starbuck_II]

\[/LIST]For more damage and more flexibility, clearly Craven is a superior choice. It gives you +1 point of damage per character level to each sneak attack. As I've already noted, that damage gets multiplied on a critical hit. The benefits increase with no additional feats required. And because it's not restricted to Rogue levels, you have more flexibility to multiclass for other useful abilities (like Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight from Shadowdancer).

And when you start fighting Dragons, you can't be immune to frightened presence or you lose the benefit of your feat.

[Curmudgeon]

And when you start fighting Dragons, you can't be immune to frightened presence or you lose the benefit of your feat.

That's not required; you merely "cannot be immune to fear". So picking up Uncanny Bravery (the ACF in Dragon Magic) gives you immunity to draconic presence, but not to fear in general. A dragon that casts Fear could still send your running away even if their draconic presence won't do the trick.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Thank you Curmudgeon. I think you have clearly stated that a combination of Craven and a high crit weapon will do wonders. I hadn't really thought that the Craven damage bonus would get multiplied on a critical.

And since you are not TWF, your chance of confirming the critical is even better... and so is your chance of doubling your craven bonus as a result.

Any other methods or ideas as to why this style would be better than TWF?

[Greenish]

Any other methods or ideas as to why this style would be better than TWF?

Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler.

Buckler, being as it is fixed to one's wrist, frees up one's hand, to draw and use wands and other handy items (or to actually cast spells, if applicable).

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler."

Old world charm... just like my roughly hewn walnut armoire, matching tea table and accompanying tea cozies with imperfect shape, denoting that they were indeed created by European peasants.

The use of wands is an excellent point as well.... no need to draw it out, if its in your hand. Quick way to heal yourself after an enemies lucky blow, especially if your healbot is being mangled by summoned demons.
Guess the healbot shouldn't have played a good character, with his god's holy symbol emblazoned on his armored chest. it kinda screams "all evil things, kill me if you can!"

[Zhalath]

"Well, there is certain old world charm about rapier & buckler."

Old world charm... just like my roughly hewn walnut armoire, matching tea table and accompanying tea cozies with imperfect shape, denoting that they were indeed created by European peasants.

The use of wands is an excellent point as well.... no need to draw it out, if its in your hand. Quick way to heal yourself after an enemies lucky blow, especially if your healbot is being mangled by summoned demons.
Guess the healbot shouldn't have played a good character, with his god's holy symbol emblazoned on his armored chest. it kinda screams "all evil things, kill me if you can!"

Like a big target...

Considering that sneak attack only applies to your first attack, isn't your extra weapon just another d6 or so of damage, plus your mediocre Str, in exchange for reduced accuracy? Plus, you can't jump people and full-attack them, unless they happen to stand within 5 feet of you, or you're invisible. I love the idea of two-weapon fighting, but the rules don't seem to support it, not as well as two-handed charging.
I mean, other games give people dual-wielding an extra attack all the time...

[John Campbell]

Since when does sneak attack only apply to your first attack?

[Curmudgeon]

Since when does sneak attack only apply to your first attack?

Maybe Zhalath has been in too many games where nobody wanted to be a flanking partner. I've been in games like that, and it's pretty annoying. You get sneak attack against flat-footed foes, and thereafter only when you attack from hiding: one sneak attack and then you're not hidden any more. Which is why I often dip into Shadowdancer so I won't be dependent on such support.

[ffone]

If a shield is used for bashing, it counts as a martial bludgeoning weapon. So shield bashing is not a good idea for a one classed rogue. He would take a -4 penalty as rogue does not have martial weapon proficiencys.
(also he can't take improved shield bash as that requires shield proficiency)

Multiclass. Swash with Daring Outlaw or something.

[Greenish]

The use of wands is an excellent point as well.... no need to draw it out, if its in your hand.

Of course, a TWFer can have a wand chambered to his each of her weapons. Still, a free hand offers more flexibility.

Considering that sneak attack only applies to your first attack

That seems like a surprisingly common houserule. Maybe all those d6's really are so intimidating…

[Jack Zander]

Since I obviously disagree, would you like to try to support that statement?

I have nothing to say about snap kick. I've never heard of it and from how you described it looks in all ways like it is an overpowered feat (as in, any martial character will want to grab it with almost no exceptions). However the mechanics of the feat work so similar to TWF that it essentially is a TWF build, just with a weapon limitation but usable on single attacks.

As for craven, it's clearly superior in a TWF build than it is in a sword and board build. More attacks = more bonus damage AND more criticals which, like you said, = more bonus damage.

Again, sometimes you don't need bonus damage, such as against mooks. This is when sword and board comes out on top. Most any other situations though, TWF is a rogue's best friend.

[Greenish]

I have nothing to say about snap kick. I've never heard of it and from how you described it looks in all ways like it is an overpowered feat (as in, any martial character will want to grab it with almost no exceptions).

Well, it works like TWF should have, but limits you to using unarmed strike (and costs two feats). Without precision damage (or perhaps beefed PA), it's kind of a low priority feat.

[Curmudgeon]

More attacks = more bonus damage AND more criticals which, like you said, = more bonus damage.

There are two problems with that statement:

1. There's no indication that Two-Weapon Fighting will give you more attacks than some other feat choice, such as Snap Kick. As I noted, TWF has zero value unless you're making full attacks.
2. More hits = more bonus damage, but you've got to demonstrate that TWF will give you more hits. It penalizes all your attacks, and you're only starting with 3/4 BAB.

You can't just make simplistic pronouncements; you've got to back them up.

[ericgrau]

What i would like to know, is whether or not it truly does yield more damage before you drop for a Rogue, as compared to TWF? Does it really increase your survivability that much?

Hi I'm the one who made the comment. It's based on simple computer simulations I did versus assumed monster stats. The difference is huge once you get your dex high enough to have a decent AC. I now have a table of average monster stats by CR so I can redo the simulations if you really want to make sure. Based on other builds I've redone I suspect I'll get the same answer, but sometimes low level builds that can't manage a good starting AC (dex too low) do slightly worse with a shield. Basically everyone's hitting 10ish times out of 20 not 20 out of 20, so each +1 AC and -1 AB is a 10% increase/decrease to damage not 5%. At higher levels TWF gets even worse as you have to pay to enchant 2 weapons and the extra attacks get diluted by haste... each of which is eating -2 AB. ITWF and GTWF barely even count given the -5 and -10 to hit. So not only are you hit a lot more you're not actually landing that many more hits nor dealing much more damage. Past 5 attacks at -20% each... you're actually losing hits.

Ya, as mentioned a rapier is a hair better than a shortsword, but only a hair. I was looking for a build where a shortsword is better to fit the OP's request. I came up with shortsword+buckler transitioning to TWF shortsword + shortsword + greater invisibility or blinking for safety (to replace the buckler). Medium BAB rogues really need the AB and weapon focus shouldn't be ignored. The ring is expensive and the wizard won't use his highest level spell slot to buff you, so you should expect to hold on to the buckler for at least half the game. Ideally you'd switch back and forth mid-combat even, depending whether or not your enemy can melee you.

[Volos]

Main Hand - +X Defending Shortsword
Off-Hand - +X Light Wooden Shield with +X Defending Shield Spikes

The Shield Spikes count as a light weapon for two weapon fighting so you don't lose out on being able to lay the smack down. The magic bonus from both the shield and the spikes can go to your armor any given turn if you can only make one attack with you shortsword. And if anything, you can give your foe a hell of a time with a comination of shield bashing and sword slashing. Assuming that +X is +5, you can have a +15 bonus to your AC any given round.