3.5 Confound The Big Folk Feat (RoW) Help

[MonsterNuker]

...trying to assemble a gnome-fighter monster-slayer and am considering Confound the Big Folk. First, can anyone confirm the language below (from Crystalkeep.com) is verbatim from Races of the Wild (I don't currently have access to this book and have found in the past that slight variations in online definitions can dramatically impact a feat's "playability")? Next, your thoughts on this feat? Thanks!

You may use the following 3 tactical maneuvers:

Knee Striker – When you occupy a square with a creature at least two size categories larger than you, the creature is considered Flat-Footed against you and you receive a +4 bonus on rolls to confirm critical hits.

Underfoot Defense – When you occupy a square with a creature at least two size categories larger than you, and you Fight Defensively, use Total Defense, or use Combat Expertise, any melee or ranged attack on you has a 50% chance of striking the creature who shares the square with you (that creature does not have 50% chance of striking itself).

Unsteady Footing – When you occupy a square with a creature at least two size categories larger than you, you may initiate a Trip attack on the creature you share the square with and not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. You can add your choice of Strength or Dexterity modifier to you check (your opponent gets the better of its Strength or Dexterity as usual). Your opponent does not get to add his/her size bonus to its roll. If the Trip attempt fails, your opponent does not get to try to trip you.

[Amphetryon]

Try this, and the Iron Chef XI thread. Both make good use of the feat, for similar reasons.

[Greenish]

Not quite.

Knee Striker only makes the target flat-footed on the next round from the one you moved to the square (and then also grants +4 to crit confirmation).

Underfoot Defense also starts only on the next round from your movement, though it continues as long as you're 'underfoot'.

Unsteady Footing, like the others, only comes available on the next round from moving to the square. The trip attempt must be a Standard action.


Of course, these are only paraphrased (because reproducing rules text verbatim is verboten ), and I didn't bother to check if errata changes something.

[MonsterNuker]

Thanks for confirming. That's what I thought, and therein lies the issue with this feat. If all these maneuvers begion on the next round, isn't the feat completely useless / nerfed?

What monster is going to just sit there and let you stay in it's square? Even if you have Underfoot Combat and moving into your opponents' square does not provoke an attack of opportunity, it's a neverending cycle: you move into your oponents square and wait until the next round so you can use one of the three maneuvers, and before the next round your opponent takes a 5' step away and pounds on you.

Am I missing something??? Suggestions how to play this feat so it's actually worthwhile? Love the concept, but I think it's totally broken.

[Amphetryon]

Confound the Big Folk plays very well with Thicket of Blades, creating a lose-lose situation where the biggun provokes an AoO regardless of his choice of movement. Add in a Spiked Chain - or another weapon that can attack with or without Reach - to further improve this stratagem. Combine with Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Shake well.

[jiriku]

Suggestions how to play this feat so it's actually worthwhile? Love the concept, but I think it's totally broken.

1. Use Stand Still, take an AoO against the creature as it moves away from you, and force it to stay put.
2. Use the Climb Aboard feature from the Giantbane tactical feat to climb onto your target.
3. Use Unsteady Footing + Staggering Strike and trip+stagger your target. He can stand up again, but he can't move away.
4. Get the creature to grapple you or swallow you whole. While this is a dangerous tactic, it works.
5. Use Goad to convince the creature to attack you.

Also, merely being able to force a big melee beast to move every round is actually not a terrible investment of a feat, as the creature a) invokes opportunity attacks from everyone nearby when it moves away from you, and b) surrenders the ability to make a full attack. He doesn't really get much benefit from taking a 5-foot step, because on your turn you can simply take a 5-foot step right back into his space and kneecap him at +4 to hit vs. flat-footed AC.

[MonsterNuker]

1) Use Stand Still

Haven't heard of Sand Still. Where is this from and how does it finction?

Thank you all for all your input!

[Draz74]

Also, note that if you move into the center of the space occupied by a Huge or bigger creature, a 5-foot step won't be enough movement to keep you from occupying their space.

This works with Large creatures, too, if you can get a terrain feature (popularly known as a "corner") to help you out.

Haven't heard of Sand Still. Where is this from and how does it finction?

Thank you all for all your input!

Here it is. Originally from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, though it has nothing to do with psionics.

[Hague]

It works particularly well with the Knight class, which makes all their threatened squares into difficult terrain, obviating the use of a 5-foot step in general.

[MonsterNuker]

5.Use Goad to convince the creature to attack you.

I use this strategy often even without CTBFolk, but this doesn't prevent the monster from moving out of the space you share before attacking you.

the creature a) invokes opportunity attacks from everyone nearby when it moves away from you, and b) surrenders the ability to make a full attack..

Not if it takes a 5' step to leave the space you share. Can take a 5' step and still use a full attack option.

He doesn't really get much benefit from taking a 5-foot step, because on your turn you can simply take a 5-foot step right back into his space and kneecap him at +4 to hit vs. flat-footed AC.

How so? If your opponent takes a 5' step to leave the space you share, the cycle starts all over again, right? You'd have to spend your ensuing turn moving back into your opponents sqaure and AGAIN wait until the next round beofre using one of the three CTBFolk tactical maneuvers (and your opponent will likely AGAIN move away before you can use a tactical manuever the following round)...

Not trying to be arguementative, just adress all the actions and perspective my DM will surely take to combat these tactics!

[jiriku]

Haven't heard of Sand Still. Where is this from and how does it finction?

Thank you all for all your input!

Draconomicon, IIRC. Haven't looked at it in a while. When taking an AoO for movement, waive your normal attack for a Stand Still attack. The attack deals no damage, but forces a Ref save based on the damage you would have dealt. If failed, target stops moving.

[Hague]

First off, it's a little unfair for the DM's creatures to "know" that they'll be considered flat-footed against you in the next turn. Maybe if you pulled the trick once, it'd be fair, but creatures with no knowledge of your character's special tactics should not be able to preempt your use of these abilities.

[MonsterNuker]

Here it is. Originally from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, though it has nothing to do with psionics.

Thanks Draz... so Stand Still doesn't combat the 5' step either, since you need your opponent to provoke an AoO before it comes into play...

[Hague]

Here's a way to use it:

Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an
opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats
all the squares that you threaten as diffi cult terrain. Your
strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force your
opponents to move with care.

It's a knight class feature.

[Keld Denar]

Thats where the Thicket of Blades stance from Tome of Battle comes into play. Thicket makes ALL movement, including 5' steps, provoke an attack. Also, as mentioned, a Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability makes all ground threatened by the Knight difficult terrain. You can not take a 5' step when your movement is restricted by difficult terrain. Do note that these abilities only work if you threaten. If you Compress or Reduce yourself to Tiny or smaller size, you have 0 threatened space, even with a reach weapon (since double 0 is still 0).

[Hague]

That is incorrect. You still threaten the space that you occupy. Therefore, when you occupy the space of an enemy, you can still get AoOs if they leave your space.

[Keld Denar]

Citation please?

EDIT: Found it myself

Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity

Bolded for emphasis.

[MonsterNuker]

That is incorrect. You still threaten the space that you occupy. Therefore, when you occupy the space of an enemy, you can still get AoOs if they leave your space.

This comment is only in relation to Thicket of Blades, right? I don't believe you don't normally get an AoO if your opponent leaves a square you share.

[Forged Fury]

Add this to the previous, and I think we have enough for an implied rule.

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

Bolded for emphasis

[Draz74]

This comment is only in relation to Thicket of Blades, right? I don't believe you don't normally get an AoO if your opponent leaves a square you share.

Nope, the comment about your own square is valid regardless of Thicket of Blades, as far as normal movement is concerned. (Thicket of Blades is necessary if you wish to extend the principle to apply to five-foot steps.)

[Hague]

Precisely, you threaten any square in which you can make an attack. Since you can attack into your own square without reach, you threaten your own square.

Even if you're tiny, and you get overrun, you still get an AoO when they leave your square, presuming you didn't get killed or KO'd by a trample attack.

This in particular, is why they created the swarm type, because rolling hundreds of dice for AoOs when you pass through a tile full of carrion beetles or rats is pretty damn ridiculous.

[Person_Man]

Three things:

1) Iaijutsu Focus is a Skill from Oriental Adventures. (By RAW, 3.0 is grandfathered into 3.5, and the OA Samurai and Factotum both get it as class Skills). Whenever you are making an attack roll immediately after drawing a weapon and your target is Flat Footed you may make an Iaijutsu Focus check as a free action. You can gain massive damage to your attack, based on your check. Confound the Big Folk lets you make enemies Flat Footed. And it goes without saying that Skills are quite easy to boost via feats, items, dips into Marshal, Item Familiars, and spells. You can use Quickdraw to draw a weapon every time you want to attack, or invest in Exotic Weapon Prof (Gnome Quickrazor, from Races of Stone), which is a free action to draw and sheath.

2) The Knight's Test of Metle rocks when combined with Confound the Big Folk. Move into an enemy's square. Use Test of Mettle. Enemies who fail their Save must attack you. For each attack, they have a 50% chance of hitting their friend, and a 50% chance of hitting you (which should be very difficult, given your Size, Dex, armor, shield, Underfoot/Confound bonuses, etc). If they kill the enemy whose square you're in, move into another enemy's square. And as Hague commented, Knight can also make the area they threaten difficult terrain. You can increase your reach via a wide variety of means. 2 feats and you're set. Unfortunately, by RAW this doesn't work well with Iaijutsu Focus, since Knights lose a Challenge use every time they strike a Flat Footed enemy.

3) Zagon vestige (requires Binder 10 and the Improved Binder feat, or Binder 5/Prestige Class 5 + feat) grants Aversion (Antipathy for snakes, which you can create with other vestiges), Improved Grapple, Scent, Constrict, and Snake Bane. In addition, you always "count as Large" for the purpose of your opposed Grapple checks. The wording of the ability means that even a Fine sized Binder counts as a Large creature for Grapple checks, which is hilariously awesome.

Binder is chock full of fun combos, especially when combined with Knight. What ECL are you playing at?

[MonsterNuker]

We're starting on level 1 with 0 experience. No +ECL races allowed. Levels fly by though, so I find it important to thorougally to plan my character progression in advance. So many feats require planning / have prereqs to be effiective.

Ironically, I'm planning a progression strikingly similar to that detailed by Amphetryon's thread in his initial response to my question: a gnome rogue, fighter, blade bravo. After this chain, however, I think I'll skip CTBFolk. Too costly and too tough to execute with my progression in mind. On the other hand, I love Giantbane with Goad... it's simple to get into AND use.

[Thrawn183]

There's been a lot of optimization work with combining this with the Blade Bravo class. I'm sure you can find it with a little google work.