Is the Saint template worth the +2LA?

[Morbis Meh]

My dm and one of my companions think it would be pretty sweet if my cleric attained the Saint template (after our first session she managed to convert 28 fanatical cultists to the church of Pelor). The abilities and ability score bonuses are nice but I am of the firm belief that nothing is worth LA. So playground what are your views on it?

btw the template is found on p 184 of the BoED

[dsmiles]

Personally, I like a lot of the templates, but the Saint is by far my favorite.

[Duke of URL]

It's is massively broken/overpowered at only +2 LA, so the answer is yes, it's worth it, doubly so if buyoff is in effect. Only a tier 1 caster might have to think about it.

[Dralnu]

It's is massively broken/overpowered at only +2 LA, so the answer is yes, it's worth it, doubly so if buyoff is in effect. Only a tier 1 caster might have to think about it.

Yup. Outsider, WIS to AC, +2 DC to everything, extra damage if you melee, good at-will spells, DR, fast healing, immunities, resistances, a very generous stat boost, the "Protective Aura" is just stupid nuts all by itself... Oh and it has more.

Ridiculously OP, yet for a tier 1 cleric i'll say it's "pretty good."

[Morbis Meh]

Yeah, I am a DMM cleric so i was wondering if it would just get in the way, currently I am only lvl 5 so i have yet to really come into my power.

[Myth]

You can buy it off at level 6. It's very much worth it then.

[Duke of URL]

You can buy it off at level 6. It's very much worth it then.

6th, then 9th for both levels.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, the most broken non epic template in the game is worth 2 LA.

It's one of the few things worth caster levels, and with LA buyoff it's pretty much no downside.

[tyckspoon]

It's really strong. The RP restrictions that accompany it are horrible, however, being even more severe than the requirements for normal Exalted Good. Not only can you do no evil, you must never fail to do Good.. and if you fail once, you lose your Sainthood and can never get it back. Now, obviously your DM can loosen those restrictions if he wants you to continue being a Saint, but as written most normal players will lose the template (probably accidentally) within a level or two.

[dsmiles]

It's really strong. The RP restrictions that accompany it are horrible, however, being even more severe than the requirements for normal Exalted Good. Not only can you do no evil, you must never fail to do Good.. and if you fail once, you lose your Sainthood and can never get it back. Now, obviously your DM can loosen those restrictions if he wants you to continue being a Saint, but as written most normal players will lose the template (probably accidentally) within a level or two.

Which compensates for it being only a +2 LA.

[Shenanigans]

I have the Saint template on my epic level exalted monk and it's great. It provides some neat abilities and meshes well with a high wisdom score.

[Duke of URL]

Which compensates for it being only a +2 LA.

Yes, and no. Roleplaying restrictions are lousy mechanical balancing issues.

[Telonius]

Compared to a level 20 Cleric, a Saint/Cleric 18 will gain:

Outsider, which makes you immune to a lot of spells
Increased Wis, to get extra spells per day and +1DC on spells
Increased Con, to give you +18 hp (which will probably end up being more than the hitpoints you lost from the two lost levels)
Increased Cha, which gives you more Turn Attempts (and therefore more DMM), and better turning checks/damage if you happen to actually use the turning attempts to turn undead.
Wisdom to AC
A bonus to the DC of your spells, negating the penalty of being two levels lower
Every weapon he wields does extra damage to evil things
Will hardly ever need to cast a heal spell on himself ever again thanks to Fast Healing
Bonus to just about everything for you and everybody you know from at-will spells
Never worry about being targeted by any spell of level 3 or lower
Magic Circle against Evil, double powered and always up, making you immune to a lot of spells
Gobs of immunities and resistances

Compared to a Level 20 Cleric, a Saint will lose:

2 points of BAB (probably irrelevant if you're DMMing Divine Power)
4 + (2*int) skill points
1 level 7 spell/day
1 level 8 spell/day
2 level 9 spells/day
2d8 + (Con*2) HP, possibly a few more than the hitpoints gained from Saint's increased Con
1 extra point in an ability score

So, to summarize: Are four spells and a few skill points really worth all those goodies?

EDIT: As far as the roleplaying issues...

Phylactery of Faithfulness

This item is a small box containing religious scripture affixed to a leather cord and tied around the forehead. There is no mundane way to determine what function this religious item performs until it is worn. The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act.

Faint divination; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law; Price 1,000 gp.

Emphasis added. Just take a moment to think before you act, and (RAW) the character has no problems.

[lsfreak]

A bonus to the DC of your spells, negating the penalty of being two levels lower

Losing two caster levels does nothing for Save DC's. A saint will effectively have +3 saves on their spells compared to a cleric, though they'll be one spell level behind, so at a given level their max-level spells will only be +2 (i.e. 5th level spells available versus 6th for straight cleric).

[OMG PONIES]

Roleplaying restrictions are lousy mechanical balancing issues.

There are mechanical restrictions as well, but they are easily forgotten since they are found elsewhere in the book. On page 29, under "Sainthood," it lists the roleplaying requirements, along with two sheerly mechanical stipulations: you must have at least three exalted feats, and you must be at least 6th level. Now, most people going saint would just snag Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and their free exalted feats to meet the first qualification, but the second is still there. Which leads me to my next point...

You can buy it off at level 6. It's very much worth it then.

6th, then 9th for both levels.

Since you can't acquire the template until you're at least 6th level, you'll have to wait a little longer to buy it off. Still, with or without buyoff, no matter when it comes, saint is a template I heartily endorse. However, one thing worth noting is that the Protective Aura includes a lesser globe of invulnerability, so some of your favorite low-level spells to persist (via DMM or otherwise) won't work while it's up. But hey, Divine Power is 4th level.

[Shenanigans]

However, one thing worth noting is that the Protective Aura includes a lesser globe of invulnerability, so some of your favorite low-level spells to persist (via DMM or otherwise) won't work while it's up. But hey, Divine Power is 4th level.

True, but the aura is highly useful...not only is it a lesser globe of invulnerability, but it's also a magic circle against evil. That covers a lot of sins (pun intended.) Personally, I enjoy the thought of all the most popular evocations bouncing right off. Party members (and their familiars/animal companions) also enjoy hiding in it.

[Cieyrin]

However, one thing worth noting is that the Protective Aura includes a lesser globe of invulnerability, so some of your favorite low-level spells to persist (via DMM or otherwise) won't work while it's up. But hey, Divine Power is 4th level.

I would like to point out that:

Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast.

I don't have the BoED on me to confirm this or not but I'd assume you could take down the Protective Aura so you can DMM and then bring it back up after you're done prepping for the day.

[Shenanigans]

I don't have the BoED on me to confirm this or not but I'd assume you could take down the Protective Aura so you can DMM and then bring it back up after you're done prepping for the day.

Yep, it's a free action to bring it up. Nice catch.

[Asheram]

Spoiler

Show

Compared to a level 20 Cleric, a Saint/Cleric 18 will gain:

Outsider, which makes you immune to a lot of spells
Increased Wis, to get extra spells per day and +1DC on spells
Increased Con, to give you +18 hp (which will probably end up being more than the hitpoints you lost from the two lost levels)
Increased Cha, which gives you more Turn Attempts (and therefore more DMM), and better turning checks/damage if you happen to actually use the turning attempts to turn undead.
Wisdom to AC
A bonus to the DC of your spells, negating the penalty of being two levels lower
Every weapon he wields does extra damage to evil things
Will hardly ever need to cast a heal spell on himself ever again thanks to Fast Healing
Bonus to just about everything for you and everybody you know from at-will spells
Never worry about being targeted by any spell of level 3 or lower
Magic Circle against Evil, double powered and always up, making you immune to a lot of spells
Gobs of immunities and resistances

Compared to a Level 20 Cleric, a Saint will lose:

2 points of BAB (probably irrelevant if you're DMMing Divine Power)
4 + (2*int) skill points
1 level 7 spell/day
1 level 8 spell/day
2 level 9 spells/day
2d8 + (Con*2) HP, possibly a few more than the hitpoints gained from Saint's increased Con
1 extra point in an ability score

So, to summarize: Are four spells and a few skill points really worth all those goodies?

EDIT: As far as the roleplaying issues...

Originally Posted by SRD
Phylactery of Faithfulness

This item is a small box containing religious scripture affixed to a leather cord and tied around the forehead. There is no mundane way to determine what function this religious item performs until it is worn. The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act.

Faint divination; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law; Price 1,000 gp.

Emphasis added. Just take a moment to think before you act, and (RAW) the character has no problems.

Wouldn't the final effect of that be like the DM playing your character for you? Since it'd be a very tight balancing act there.

*Someone is suffering there, you must care for him*
*You can't hurt him other than non-lethal since he's just misguided*
*You can't do that, it'd be naughty.*

[Cieyrin]

Wouldn't the final effect of that be like the DM playing your character for you? Since it'd be a very tight balancing act there.

*Someone is suffering there, you must care for him*
*You can't hurt him other than non-lethal since he's just misguided*
*You can't do that, it'd be naughty.*

That's basically what it's for, though, so the DM isn't just like 'Ha! You screwed up, loser! No Sainthood for you!". Instead, it's "I don't think you should do that, Dave." Whether you listen to the Phylactery is something else entirely, it's just something to to keep you from slipping up, insurance, as it were.

[Shenanigans]

As a side note, Faerun has an exalted feat (Gift of Discernment?) that serves basically the same function as the phylactery of faithfulness; useful for Vow of Poverty characters.

[Douglas]

From a mechanical power perspective, Saint is one of the few templates that is often worth the cost. For a cleric, who will typically have extremely high wisdom, I'd say go for it. If your DM will allow you to buy off the LA and won't be a jerk about the rp requirements, definitely take it.

From an rp perspective, it depends very much on your group and your DM. Many DMs will take one look at a character with a template like that and immediately take it as a challenge to make you violate the behavior requirements and lose it. It's like the infamous "make the paladin fall" trend, but worse because the standard of behavior you have to live up to is even more stringent than the paladin code. If you're lucky enough to have a DM that will play along and allow you to be a proper saint without stacking the deck against you with impossible dilemmas and hidden "gotcha" situations, then it can be a great thing to have.

[dsmiles]

Just take a moment to think before you act,

And therein lies the problem for many players.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I really dislike people crying OP at a template thats mildly worth its LA. Some here forget that this template must be applied late which does bad things to your buy-off.

If 9th level spells and DMM are in the game, I would never bother on a caster.