Level Adjustment

[Doomboy911]

A new guy will be joining our party soon and he wishes to be a half dragon. Now I understand being a half dragon (or half anything) requires level adjustment. Can someone help me with this or give me a link describing how it's done.

[Starbuck_II]

A new guy will be joining our party soon and he wishes to be a half dragon. Now I understand being a half dragon (or half anything) requires level adjustment. Can someone help me with this or give me a link describing how it's done.

1/2 Dragon: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm

Level adjustment are empty levels.
A 1/2 dragon has 3 empty levels meaning he can't be a 1st level anything unless he is ECL (effective character level) of 4.
3+1=4.
Meaning he can't play unless the DM is playing a 4th level or higher game.

If everyone else is 4th level, he can be a 1st level {inser class}.
The designers believed 1/2 dragon was worth being 3 levels lower. He counts as 4th level for how much XP he needs to level to 5th.

So a 1st level fighter is ECL 4 (3 LA) and has d10 hps. He gets boosts to Str/Con and NA, but still is fragile due to low Hps (con is comulative, more HD = more Con mod hp).

Edit: originally messed up LA number.

[HunterOfJello]

You might want to suggest the Dragonborn instead of Half-Dragon. Half-Dragon has a harsh +3 LA where Dragonborn has none. (Dragonborn can be found in Races of the Dragon).


Dragonborn still get either scaling breath weapon, good bonus vision abilities or wings.

[Mystic Muse]

You might want to suggest the Dragonborn instead of Half-Dragon. Half-Dragon has a harsh +3 LA where Dragonborn has none.


Dragonborn still get either scaling breath weapon, good bonus vision abilities or wings.

And you have to serve Bahamut otherwise he will take the template away.

Am I the only one who has read that part?

There's a half dragon homebrew that's decently balanced you could use instead. I'll link it if you allow homebrew in your games. You take levels instead of having level adjustment.

[Marnath]

I like to lower half-dragon to +2 LA, since people always say it's not worth doing at +3. I also let the breath weapon take a DC of 10 +1/2 total hit die + con mod. Otherwise it's not worth using past low levels. Even with that the DC isn't great.

[UserClone]

Alternatively, he could be Draconic, or he could use the Savage Progression for Half-Dragon found in Races of the Dragon.

[Starbuck_II]

And you have to serve Bahamut otherwise he will take the template away.

Am I the only one who has read that part?

There's a half dragon homebrew that's decently balanced you could use instead. I'll link it if you allow homebrew in your games. You take levels instead of having level adjustment.

Actually, it says he send Dragonborn bounty hunters if yiou stop serving him. He can't take it away.

[Claudius Maximus]

Yes he can. And it's very painful.

[Kobold-Bard]

Maybe try the homebrew Monster class version from these forums: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=257

That's basically a very short class instead of LA (which is rubbish coz it screws over casters by lowering the spells they can cast and screws over melee coz they give no BAB).

[Marnath]

Yes he can. And it's very painful.

Specifically: A fallen dragonborn's skin cracks and sloughs off, and their limbs twist and crack.
This process lasts for a number of rounds equal to it's Hit Dice and deals 2d6 damage a round. After it's over they revert form, even if they're dead now.

[ericgrau]

I did a couple quick simulations with a program I wrote and the LA 2 half dragon pulls way ahead of no template after about 5 levels (ECL 7). LA 3 takes 5 levels to match no template and 10 levels to beat it by a decent (but not huge) margin. The program does not consider special abilities like the bite attack or breath weapon, which I'm betting would fill the gap at lower levels.

That's vs. core classes and feats though. Those using splatbooks may want to reduce the LA of half-dragon and everything else for that matter. LA 2 is very strong but not extremely overpowered even in core (just somewhat OP and only later on). LA 2 could work well in a group with a higher level of optimization. Otherwise stick with LA 3 IMO.

Back to the original question: LA 3 is basically saying "Your race is so good, we're gonna force you to take 3 levels in jack squat. You still include those levels when figuring out xp, but they don't give you anything, not even hit dice." For example you might take 5 class levels and you may be vulnerable to spells that affect creatures with 5 hit dice, but your effective character level is 8, your party members should be level 8, and you need 9,000 xp more (same as your level 8 party members) to reach level 9, which is only your 6th class level.

[Marnath]

The problem with LA+3 is that you are fragile, you have significantly less hp than your party. Also, you still only have one attack in a martial class while your friends are making iterative attacks. I don't need to explain why being 3 caster levels behind is a huge problem, either.

[Snake-Aes]

A new guy will be joining our party soon and he wishes to be a half dragon. Now I understand being a half dragon (or half anything) requires level adjustment. Can someone help me with this or give me a link describing how it's done.

Level adjustment = the character's level is added by a certain amount.
So, to put him in the same level as the group, his level has to be smaller than the others'.
Example: Your group has a level 12 rogue, a level 13 fighter and a half dragon level 10 cleric.


Generally speaking, LA is more trouble than its worth.

[Marnath]

I wonder something...would starting off that number of levels behind with no LA do the trick? You'd catch up yeah, but by the time you did you'd be to the point where your template's advantages aren't as useful anyway.

[ericgrau]

The problem with LA+3 is that you are fragile, you have significantly less hp than your party. Also, you still only have one attack in a martial class while your friends are making iterative attacks. I don't need to explain why being 3 caster levels behind is a huge problem, either.

Naturally you wouldn't take LA 3 for +8 strength and so on if you wanted to play a caster.

I went back to look at the numbers in the program and for ECL 4-5 the half-dragon is dealing double the untemplated guy's damage, so that helps make up for the much lower HP. Ya, there is a big jump once the untemplated guy gets his 2nd attack at ECL 6, but 1 level later at ECL 7 the LA 3 guy is on his 4th HD so he's not feeling the HP hurt as much. For every level except ECL 6 the half dragon is only a little behind, he pulls ahead at ECL 9 when he gets his 2nd attack, and by ECL 15 his HP is almost caught up and everything else is higher, putting him firmly in the lead. Again at ECL 1-5 he has a bite attack and breath weapon which I ignored, so ya I'd say it's fairly well balanced vs. core melee at every level except ECL 6 (significantly worse) and ECL 16+ (significantly better).

I wonder something...would starting off that number of levels behind with no LA do the trick? You'd catch up yeah, but by the time you did you'd be to the point where your template's advantages aren't as useful anyway.

Based on the above if anything I'd start it at LA 2 and increase it to LA 3 at ECL 7. Heck at ECL 16 it might even be LA 4, in core anyway. Again, balancing vs. splatbooks would reduce all the LAs.

[Marnath]

All I know is that a halfdragon human battle sorceror without LA is not all that much more awesome than the other pc's were. It depends on the overall campaign power level I guess.

[UserClone]

Or, what if you started at the same level as everyone else, but you had to pay the next 3 levels' xp as a penalty before you could gain any xp?

[ericgrau]

All I know is that a halfdragon human battle sorceror without LA is not all that much more awesome than the other pc's were. It depends on the overall campaign power level I guess.

Ya a melee template on a caster is going to be pretty useless. I'd guess LA 1 for a caster, if even that on a well optimized caster.

[Marnath]

Ya a melee template on a caster is going to be pretty useless. I'd guess LA 1 for a caster, if even that on a well optimized caster.

Yeah, thats how we did it. Plus LA buyoff and level 5 start, we said to heck with it and just made him level 4, with 1/3 of the next level xp, or whatever the maths equaled. All he really got out of it is a +4 to attack and damage and fire immunity. Not too broken, really. Especially in the face of what a battle sorceror gives up spell wise.

[Snake-Aes]

I wonder something...would starting off that number of levels behind with no LA do the trick? You'd catch up yeah, but by the time you did you'd be to the point where your template's advantages aren't as useful anyway.

That's the spirit of LA Buyout. It consists of, when you level up, to burn that xp into reducing your LA adjustment by 1.

[Marnath]

That's the spirit of LA Buyout. It consists of, when you level up, to burn that xp into reducing your LA adjustment by 1.

The difference is you'd have to make the first couple levels with the higher xp requirement. Not so if you merely start out 3 levels lower or whatever.

[Mando Knight]

And you have to serve Bahamut otherwise he will take the template away.

Am I the only one who has read that part?

Well, he is the LG god of Being An Awesome Dragon. Having religious fervor to kill chromatic dragons and take their stuff doesn't sound so bad, does it?

[UserClone]

Well, he is the LG god of Being An Awesome Dragon. Having religious fervor to kill chromatic dragons and take their stuff doesn't sound so bad, does it?

Yeah, if you're going to be religious about killing something evil, at least make it the something with the highest treasure-to-CR ratio out there! (oh, snap!)

[Mando Knight]

I'll slay anything that's evil, that's my deal!

[UserClone]

So what's a few evil, rich dragons among Dragonborn and their Dragon-God?

Sounds perfect! How about a Half-Dragon Dragonborn Silverbrow Human? WTF would that look like? [/dragon]

[Doomboy911]

I say a half dragon barbarian is a great idea since you can get high hit points and become great for assault. Wait does the half dragon get wings?

[dragonsamurai77]

I say a half dragon barbarian is a great idea since you can get high hit points and become great for assault. Wait does the half dragon get wings?

Only if he's Large or bigger.

[Eldariel]

And you have to serve Bahamut otherwise he will take the template away.

Am I the only one who has read that part?

There's a half dragon homebrew that's decently balanced you could use instead. I'll link it if you allow homebrew in your games. You take levels instead of having level adjustment.

Just use it as generic "Half-Dragon" Template and everyone will be much happier. The default Half-Dragon is horrible. I mean, sure, it beats Core melee classes since they don't really give you much in the way of anything! It's not hard to beat "nothing". It doesn't match classes with class features.

Being HDs behind is always horrible; you'll be ****ed every time someone casts any of the Blasphemy-line spells, you'll be limited in Polymorph-forms due to HD (the line, PAO in particular, makes any racial stats pretty irrelevant in Core), you'll have less BAB and thus less attacks, less HP and thus any Con-bonuses are negated, and overall it's decidedly meh.


Honestly, in Core you can just take Dragon Disciple instead and be just fine; it just so happens as none of the Core melee classes get anything (well, they do but they're frontloaded so all relevant stuff you'll have anyways), you don't really lose anything by going that route. Really, all this wouldn't be so relevant if the class design in Core wasn't so horrible though. Dragonborn is just about the best Half-Dragon race ever though, so just go with that.

[FMArthur]

Just use it as generic "Half-Dragon" Template and everyone will be much happier. The default Half-Dragon is horrible. I mean, sure, it beats Core melee classes since they don't really give you much in the way of anything! It's not hard to beat "nothing". It doesn't match classes with class features.

Being HDs behind is always horrible; you'll be ****ed every time someone casts any of the Blasphemy-line spells, you'll be limited in Polymorph-forms due to HD (the line, PAO in particular, makes any racial stats pretty irrelevant in Core), you'll have less BAB and thus less attacks, less HP and thus any Con-bonuses are negated, and overall it's decidedly meh.


Honestly, in Core you can just take Dragon Disciple instead and be just fine; it just so happens as none of the Core melee classes get anything (well, they do but they're frontloaded so all relevant stuff you'll have anyways), you don't really lose anything by going that route. Really, all this wouldn't be so relevant if the class design in Core wasn't so horrible though. Dragonborn is just about the best Half-Dragon race ever though, so just go with that.

I do this. Half Dragon is a bad idea all round.

[Mystic Muse]

Just use it as generic "Half-Dragon" Template and everyone will be much happier.

That'd be fine. But suggesting it as a default replacement of half dragon to players when nobody ever seems to mention the drawback at all just seems wrong to me.