Living without a rogue

[WarKitty]

Just a question I've had on my mind. As a party how do you live without a rogue or one of the other base classes with trapfinding? Presume you're starting at level 1 and working your way up. What other classes can fill in for the rogue?

I'm asking because our group is getting a bit tired of someone having to be the designated trap person. We're at the point where most of the group has their one or two favorite classes and no one particularly likes any of the trapfinders. We like bards for our skillmonkeys most of the time.

[Esser-Z]

Anyone with a ten, maybe eleven or twelve, foot pole!

[NineThePuma]

Cleric with the Kobold Domain can trap find, as can Artificer. Um... Get someone with a tough animal companion and have the companion go first, healing it up after?

[ffone]

I've had similar annoying experiences - PBP campaigns which were slooooow b/c the rest of the party sat around while the rogue had to Search everything and then Disable Device or Open Locks it, and everyone else was paranoid to set foot in any 5'x5' square he hadn't Searched. Spent half a year going through one dungeon.

First advice: talk to the DM, agree to do a campaign which is outdoorsy. Or, when I DM, I like to design 'dungeons' which have a reason to not have traps - like they are offices are temples where living NPCs traffick and go about their (evil) business, and thus ought'n't be trapped, except for the occasional super-secret vault.

In PBP DMing I basically don't use traps, b/c as soon as one is found or set off, play speed grinds to a halt while everyone goes paranoid and only steps exactly where the rogue has, and it's essentially a solo game except for battles.

Lowbrow methods:
-Long poles
-Throwing stuff

Also, once you have 2nd level spells:
-Knock
-Find Traps
-summons to set off the traps, dispel to suppress them, etc.
(IF DMing, consider planting wands of these spells early in the campaign)

[mostlyharmful]

a party needs a trapfinder for anything even remotely resembling the SOP of a d&d game. setting off a trap is usually a fine and dandy thing.... and sometimes the stupidist, suicidalist tactic.

Deadfalls, alarms, acid boxes, summons, map resets, gate-based, pheremones, mind-gank, set damage, cumulative, denial tactics, hostage-tied..... there's no end to traps you don't want to set off, tanking it's not up to snuf with a creative dm.

[WarKitty]

a party needs a trapfinder for anything even remotely resembling the SOP of a d&d game. setting off a trap is usually a fine and dandy thing.... and sometimes the stupidist, suicidalist tactic.

Deadfalls, alarms, acid boxes, summons, map resets, gate-based, pheremones, mind-gank, set damage, cumulative, denial tactics, hostage-tied..... there's no end to traps you don't want to set off, tanking it's not up to snuf with a creative dm.

We all agree that D&D is designed for a trapfinder. The trouble is that generally whoever's the trapfinder ends up being really bored because none of us enjoy that type of class. We're an even split between people who like to tank, and people who like to cast at range, with the occasional bard thrown in the mix.

[Optimator]

Celestial Monkeys from a 750gp wand.

[mostlyharmful]

Celestial Monkeys from a 750gp wand.

The monkey walks forward.... the tunnel collapses.

some archetypes are necessary to ensure some vague versimilitude. The trapfinding mechanic is to my mind one of the worst 3.5 mechanics but then none of the d&d editions has even vaguely covered this one. It'd be hard to cover something which depends so crucially on the inherent evil-bastard-ishness of guerilla warfare and tomb builiding.....

[Horoar]

Just ask the DM to take out traps if they're not adding anything to the campaign.

EDIT: or try to recruit another player who likes to play as a rogue.

[Flickerdart]

Barbarians have an ACF that allows them to find and disable traps with Survival.

[WarKitty]

Just ask the DM to take out traps if they're not adding anything to the campaign.

It just wouldn't be a dungeon without traps though. I gotta admit trapfinding is not one of the better 3.5 mechanics.

[Susano-wo]

You could simply grant trapfindeing to the other classes. I've always thought that it was pretty sad that they apparently felt they had to deny everyone else who put points into disable device the benefits of their most likely cross-class skill. If the rogue needs that to pretect his niche that badly...improve him (thank you, Pathfinder! :D)

The other option is to remove trapfinding from the skills system altogether. Each trap has a specific way of disarming it. To do so, you have to actually look at the device, ask the DM questions about what you can see, and try to disable it. (If people actually have ranks in disable device, maybe they get rolls to see if ideas are bad. (not see what good ideas are though, since that defeats the purpose of having people figure out the trap)

[CockroachTeaParty]

It really depends on the campaign. If it's more of a series of dungeon crawls, then it helps to have a strategy when it comes to traps (not just trapfinding, but creative summoning or other spells can work too).

In most games I've run, traps are all but ignored, and I usually tell folks that a trapfinding character is hardly a necessity. That's why I like the Beguiler: it's typically not going to focus on trapfinding, but it's there in case you need it.

[Touchy]

Barbarians have an ACF that allows them to find and disable traps with Survival.

Actually, if memory serves correct, he finds traps with survival, but breaks them by attacking it, which effectively means disabling.

Cleric with the Kobold Domain can trap find, as can Artificer. Um... Get someone with a tough animal companion and have the companion go first, healing it up after?

Also note that only one god has the kobold domain, Kurtulmak, and he's not fond of anything that's NOT a kobold. So keep this in mind if a DM doesn't like cleric of ideals.

[HunterOfJello]

No trapfinding? Then the DM can remove most traps from the campaign.

The DM can (and should anyway) use traps that are focused more on avoidance rather than detection. This encourages player creativity and removes the surprise damage aspect from most traps.

[Vangor]

Just a question I've had on my mind. As a party how do you live without a rogue or one of the other base classes with trapfinding?

While my players tend to include a rogue or now a beguiler or artificer (personally better choices for far more than trapmonkeying), I do not generally make traps which are not, in a manner, able to be bypassed. Having a person who can disable is helpful after finding the mechanisms, saving you resources or permitting progress down a path, but I was never really a fan of simply having a "trap" which is simply a DC25 Acid Trap on the Door or some such.

Make better traps, I say.

[Zeofar]

If you're all agreed that you don't like it, why not just change how it works?

These are just some possibilities:

• Remove 'trapfinding' totally, including as a requisite for finding difficult traps. If you think this makes Rogues underpowered, give them a bonus to finding traps, as well as any other class that normally is able to find nasty traps.
• As above, but difficult traps can only be found by someone who has Search trained.
• Make "Trapfinding" a feat, and Rogues and others get it as a bonus feat.

[Eldariel]

Trapfinding in and of itself is mostly unnecessary; just remove need for it to find Traps and you're fine. But yeah, here's a quick list of base classes that can remove traps:

• Rogue
• Scout [CAdv]
• Beguiler [PHBII]
• Artificer [ECS]
• Ninja [CAdv]
• Factotum [Dungeonscape]
• Spellthief [CAdv]
• Ranger: Trap Expert ACF [Dungeonscape]
• Cleric: Kobold domain & Find Traps (Kobold-domain is accessible for non-Kobolds through Planar Touchstone-feat [PlH], among others)
• Barbarian: Trapkiller ACF [Dungeonscape]

Few PrCs also grant it:

• Nightsong Infiltrator [CAdv]
• Temple Raiders of Olidammara [CDiv]
• Stonedeath Assassin [RoS]
• Hoardstealer [Drac]

Also note that many traps can be disabled without Disable Device; things like Dispel Magic and simple mechanical contraptions often work. Yet more are things like Summon Elemental [CM] Reserve Feat which give you infinite summons to throw at things. While not foolproof, these and things like 10-ft poles make living without a trapfinder quite possible. Of course, Rogue hirelings should be readily available in Thieves' Guild (provided you can make contact).

But really, a ton of archetypes can get Trapfinding giving you everything from divine casters to arcane casters and frontliners. The options are also all over the tier listing. Not to mention multiclassing enables just about any class to get it somewhat profittably; Ninja 1/Druid 19 is still a fine character with Trapfinding, Wis to AC and some other nice tricks, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 is just awesome (in more ways than I can count), and Planar Touchstone for Kobold-domain (through Catalogues of Enlightenment) allows any class to get Trapfinding with just one feat on level 5. And Theft Gloves soulmeld [MoI] also gives 'em to anyone with the chakra open.

This unfortunately doesn't make Disable Device and Search class skills for non-Clerics so you'll need other routes for those, or other abilities like spells such as Improvisation [SC], Divine Insight [SC] or Guidance of the Avatar to improve the Disable Device-checks. Still, it can be done. Oh, and there's the Dwarven racial ability to search stone, Disciple of Dispater's class ability to search metal, Dwarven Stoneblessed's ability to search Stone and so on.


And yes, I'm aware most of this has already been said; I mostly strove to be comprehensive here.

[Darrin]

Also note that only one god has the kobold domain, Kurtulmak, and he's not fond of anything that's NOT a kobold. So keep this in mind if a DM doesn't like cleric of ideals.

Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment can get you a domain power without worshiping any particular deity.

Wand of SM1 does very well, but so does a Wand of Mount (longer duration) or a Survival Pouch (MIC, 3300 GP, 5 mules/day).

[Chipp Zanuff]

It just wouldn't be a dungeon without traps though. I gotta admit trapfinding is not one of the better 3.5 mechanics.

There are other kinds of traps, you know?

[WarKitty]

There are other kinds of traps, you know?

Not funny, sorry. Did I mention I'm genderqueer?

[Ravens_cry]

There are other kinds of traps, you know?

A ring of X-ray vision would be of great assistance in detecting such traps.

[Leewei]

Check out the Ballad of Log, the Timberrogue.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also remember that you only need Trapfinding to be able to spot traps with a DC of over 20, or to disable any magical traps. For everything else, anyone with the skills can do the job just as well.

[Shenanigans]

As a Trapkiller-ish variant, you could have a character with very high saves (a paladin with divine grace, for example) go first.

[Starbuck_II]

Take Soulmeld that gives you a trap finding?
The one that gives you open lock/disable bonuses.

[Snake-Aes]

Take Soulmeld that gives you a trap finding?
The one that gives you open lock/disable bonuses.

Theft gloves. Trapfinding with them starts at level 4 (hands bind).

[hamishspence]

What about Dungeonscape's Encounter traps? these are traps that are more like an encounter with some monsters, than your traditional pit trap.

Might be a good way of ensuring that just because you have trapfinders, doesn't mean it's a walkover (and, conversely, just because you don't have them, doesn't mean you're doomed).

[RebelRogue]

The trapfinding mechanic is to my mind one of the worst 3.5 mechanics but then none of the d&d editions has even vaguely covered this one.

3rd edition does way better than previous ones, to be fair. But 4e has it covered pretty good, IMO: Train Perception and possibly Dungeoneering and you're good to go.

[Ruinix]

i complete in love of factotum, is what the rogue should be as skill monkey and with the correct build it can be the best batman in the block XDD