Breaching MMM (3.5)

[Adamaro]

So, is it possible to teleport/plane shift/open a planar rift into Mages' magnificient mansion?

How does one detect its location?

And then, how to enter it?

If possible ... :P

Tnx

[Duke of URL]

Nope. It's absolutely secure, which is the point of it. It's extradimensional, not on a different plane, and the only way in is controlled by the caster, who can specify who is allowed in.

Of course, while you can't break into it, there are other things you can do. It has a duration, so it can be dispelled. If you know where it is, you can guard/trap the area around the portal so that those who exit the MMM are hosed in a hurry. Or, while the folks are holed up inside, you can simply use the time to move on with your plans, expedited, if necessary.

[subject42]

There's also one prestige class that can break into them. I think it's called the "Silver Key".

[Aharon]

No, it is not absolutely secure.
Extradimensional is just referring to where it is (outside your own current dimension).

Evidence: Plane Shift and other methods of planetravelling are mentioned as extradimensional travel in Dimensional Anchor's description.

Thus, you can get into it. Teleport isn't possible, but Plane Shift and Greater Plane Shift are. However, you need a special focus if you cast it as a spell, which might be hard to come by. Thus, you need a creature that has these spells as SLAs or (su)-abilities. At higher levels, you might also use gate to enter an MMM.

[Duke of URL]

No, the text of the spell itself is quite clear:

Only those you designate may enter the mansion... Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.

It is stating that "the place can be entered only through its special portal" and that the caster can limit access to "Only those you designate". There are no exceptions listed in the spell, and therefore its protection is absolute, as specific trumps general.

[Aharon]

@Duke
But Plane Shift specifically states that you can reach any other plane you have the focus for. Any including any mages mansion. I acknowledge your point, but what takes precedence there?

=> I think it would be strange if your interpretation were used. Even gods would be barred entry from your Mansion. Even a subset of possible Pun-Puns would be barred (namely those that are sometimes used for the sake of discussion that don't just invent previously non-existing abilities).

[Zeta Kai]

Nope. It's absolutely secure, which is the point of it. It's extradimensional, not on a different plane, and the only way in is controlled by the caster, who can specify who is allowed in.

Yeah, that's cheap & cheesy. It serves as a wicked example of casters getting nice things that non-casters cannot hope to compete with. Let's get analytical for a second, & look at how casters & non-casters compare.

MMM is a 7th level Sor/Wiz spell, which means that Sorcerers can cast it at 14th level, & Wizards can pick it up as soon as 13th level. By comparison, here's what non-casters classes get at 13th-14th level:

• Barbarian: Another point(less) of Damage Reduction, & a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells, which is only usable while in a rage. The first is a worthless +1 to resisting direct damage, & the second is a +4 to something so extremely niche that you may never see it happen unless the DM is trying to showcase your new "class feature."
• Fighter: A bonus feat. Let's not pretend that I can be excited by this. What're you gonna do with this? Let's see, you've already had 7 bonus feats already, in addition to the 5 feats that you already got from leveling. So if you didn't get a feat already, it's because you didn't need it, didn't want it, or couldn't qualify for it, & odds are nothing's changed in the past couple of levels, which is really the heart of the problem.
• Monk: You finally got spell resistance, just in time for nobody to care; the clerics got better SR a few levels ago, & they weren't that psyched for it then. You can also slow fall another 10', but nobody could care less without trying.
• Rogue: Your sneak attack went up another die, which is handy I guess. It's another 3.5 points of damage, so you're incrementally better at stabbing certain things under certain specific circumstances. You also gain another special ability, so you can choose (your second favorite) from an array of unimpressive options, like skill mastery or a bonus feat. If you don't already have improved evasion, choose it now or turn in your daggers.

Meanwhile, the Sor/Wiz team is hiding in an impenetrable mansion with sufficient provisions to last practically forever, which they conjured out of thin air. This mansion can completely protect them for as long as they want, & there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. Also, they can also do a few of the following:

• Banish demons
• Repel spells
• Walk through walls
• Travel to different planes
• Summon genies
• Teleport
• Paralyze a crowd
• Drive people insane
• Blind someone
• Hold people in a force cage
• Make a group invisible
• Control the undead
• Instantly kill someone
• Control the weather
• Reverse gravity
• Oh yeah, & WISH FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT (within reason?)

So yeah... melee can't have nice things, but the casters have a Monty Haul. It's like they're not even playing the same game as the rest of the party. It's pretty silly when you break it down.

[Duke of URL]

@Duke
But Plane Shift specifically states that you can reach any other plane you have the focus for. Any including any mages mansion. I acknowledge your point, but what takes precedence there?

=> I think it would be strange if your interpretation were used. Even gods would be barred entry from your Mansion. Even a subset of possible Pun-Puns would be barred (namely those that are sometimes used for the sake of discussion that don't just invent previously non-existing abilities).

Perhaps they're barred, but they could dispel or disjunction it out of existence, and deal with the miscreants there. The spell text is quite clear that no means of outside influence affects anything inside the mansion. (Of course, you could also flip that around and say that the reverse of this bars any divination or conjuration (calling/summoning that relies on other dimension) by those in the mansion to anything outside (including augury, commune, contact other plane, gate, etc.) and may even bar clerics from replenishing spells if they are cut off from their deity.)

Of course, RAW isn't always the best guideline. If an impregnable mage's magnificent mansion is unbalancing a particular game, then modify or ban it.

[Adamaro]

@Duke
But Plane Shift specifically states that you can reach any other plane you have the focus for. Any including any mages mansion. I acknowledge your point, but what takes precedence there?

=> I think it would be strange if your interpretation were used. Even gods would be barred entry from your Mansion. Even a subset of possible Pun-Puns would be barred (namely those that are sometimes used for the sake of discussion that don't just invent previously non-existing abilities).

IMHO a DM fiat may be usefull here. Gate spell with high enough Spellcraft or Knowledge (planes) DC (say, 60?).

Pun Pun should be able to open this like a can of tuna. After all, MMM is not an equivalent of LoP in its totality.