Real CR 32

[Thefurmonger]

So in reading the thread on Asmodeus I got thinking.

He is printed as CR 32. sadly we all know that is wrong. with a small helping of cheese we can more then likley take him out WAYYYYY earlier then that.

So anyway. taking into account the "normal" CO stuff. what IS a good CR 30+ creature? are any printed? Homebrew? or just say no to epic?

Again, this is not for a real game, I'm just curious.

(Lets not use any Loops, the dreaded PP or calling someone 3 times. Thats just not fun)

[Duke of URL]

Under those guidelines, a "real" CR 32 would be a 32nd-level NPC built using the "normal" CO guidelines.

[Myth]

Um.. Considering that at level 32 you have Epic Spellcasting nothing is really a challenge unless it comes at you fast, out of nowhere, with no chance for you to research a "slay x permanently" spell with something like Circle Magic.

Off the top of my head:

SR of 84, regenreation, Fast healing 20+, Greater Teleport, Greater Planeshift, Greater Anticipate Teleportation at will. Immunity to Divination magic, energy drain, ability drain, mind-affecting, criticals, cannot be flanked, hefty resistances to all elemental damage, immune to force effects and has natural flight.

True Seeing, Darkvision, Blind Fight, Blindsight, double actions per round (like Choker). Casting as lvl 32 tier 1 caster. Gate as a SLA, Time Stop as a SLA (3-6 times/day) Shapechange at will.

If you want to be mean - Immunity to Time Stop (a-la Baldur's Gate II: Ascension bosses), Disjunction at will and an "Always goes first, yes even if you have Celerity) come to mind.

[mostlyharmful]

3.5 is rocket tag by the time you reach mid level, it's totally blown apart by the time casters are throwing around 9th level stuff and epic is just la-la land....

Wiz: I throw the moon at you
SS: I dodge
Cleric: I summon my god and he hits you
barb: I take it...
etc....

[Emperor Tippy]

If you just flat out throw epic casting out the window, triply gestalt a Warblade 20/Swordsage 10//Psion 30//Factotum 20/Fighter 10

Use Chaos Shuffle to turn all of the those fighter bonus feats into Font of Inspiration, swordsage is grabbed because ToB doesn't go epic and this way you get access to the swordsage stuff (pick of of the ToB PRC's instead if you want). Psion (with or without a PRC depending upon your specific build) is there for "casting" and utility (plus being able to nova). Factotum is there for all of it's niceness, particularly Cunning Surge so that you can break the action economy.

Build that decently and you have a CR 32 threat.

---
But once you start throwing epic magic around the game is essentially free form. Challenge Ratings mean nothing in those kinds of games, a ECL 21 wizard with epic casting can do just as much as an ECL 221 wizard with epic casting.

[Ingus]

In every stand-alone boss, you need to overcome three factors:

1. Durability: most of 32th level PCs, midly optimized, has at least 2 standard actions per turn (high optimized: cronotrym/aspect of Demogorgon + swifts + greater celerity = 3 standard, 3 swift, 3 move). Multiply for 4 standard party members and you have no less of 8 standard actions on your boss. So, you need it to be durable.
My two cents: don't let them know vulnerabilities or resistences/immunities in advance, but let 'em try and fail. If they're pretty good in divinations or in strategies, let them know one major, unexpected immunity/resistence or one relative weakness (at this level, it could be resistence:cold only 50).
This and, obviously, have him stuffed with tons of protections and being immune of AMF, dispel/greater dispel/dispelling wall..., disjunction and so on.

2. Attack: to bypass the presumibly, ridicously high protections of PCs, he has to be effective and versatile. Give him a couple of shots effective even versus magic immunity (Alter Reality?, Conjuration-Creation), nigh-infinite AC, nigh-infinite ST, nigh-infinite DR.

3. Action management: read 1.? Your BBEG opponents have plentry of actions. Your BBEG should hit 'em together. Area attacks are a cheap answer, but he should have 2 standards, 2 swifts, 2 move minimum (look for psi powers, spells, item familiars, familiars, cohorts, siblings, anything...)

More than everything, know that epic beings should always have backup plans, escape exits, dragon bodyguards to avoid being cornered.
And that epic encounters are game of chess, more than raw power. Take inspiration by:

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Xanatos Gambit, Xanatos Roulette, Thirty Xanatos Pileup
(not exaustive)

[Oslecamo]

But once you start throwing epic magic around the game is essentially free form. Challenge Ratings mean nothing in those kinds of games, a ECL 21 wizard with epic casting can do just as much as an ECL 221 wizard with epic casting.

That's why the epic magic rules are very explicit that every custom epic spell must be reviewed and aproved by the DM.

This is, you above all know that if you follow the item creation rules blindly then things go broken pretty fast, but then there's the clause that you cannot simply go creating whatever you want whitout the DM's specific aproval.

Above all other rules, item/spell creation rules are guidelines at best and aren't suposed to be followed blindly.

[awa]

cr is highly subjective you said it would be an easy fight with cheese but not all games involve cheese either because of gentleman agreement, lack of knowledge or dm fiat. sure you can break epic casting easy but not every one does so weather this creature is a good threat is largely defined by the party it is supposed to fight.

[Grommen]

D&D is played with the same set of rules but with so many different power levels it is nearly impossible to measure the actual challenge something might possess. That being said the CR is a measuring stick of sorts. My groups most of the time they get it right.

Under the 3.5 rules it is assumed that you can defeat something 4 CR above your party with some trouble. If your routinely defeating something 8 CRs above you level something has gone wrong in your campaign. That is pretty much what they say.

So a 30th level party should be able to defeat a CR 32. I still always tweek my boss fights up or down depending on my groups. I would say that most of the time if I ever had a group that level they would have a hard time fighting him straight up. We are kinda old school, and don't toss around epic spells like candy, don't necessarily pick the best classes and choices for them. So ya that would be a good fight.

So if people are out their slapping him around at far lower levels, and don't like it. Time to look at the power curve of your campaign.

Even then, you can always give him player levels, and more stuff. I once outfitted a Maralith demon with six +5 Longswords and a +10 bracers of Armor. Good times.

[Zaydos]

That and the CR 27 version of Asmodeus from FCII is almost the exact same, better in some (major) regards although it has slightly worse SR, hp (the biggest thing here actually), and melee. So even the game designers realized they'd made something weaker than they intended.

[BeholderSlayer]

A well optimized wizard could probably knock Asmodeus as written in BoVD down at level 10, maybe 13 (unless I missed something in the entry).

To be a real threat at level 32-ish, an enemy needs to have many outright immunities, not just high SR and saves.

[The Glyphstone]

That's why the epic magic rules are very explicit that every custom epic spell must be reviewed and aproved by the DM.

This is, you above all know that if you follow the item creation rules blindly then things go broken pretty fast, but then there's the clause that you cannot simply go creating whatever you want whitout the DM's specific aproval.

Above all other rules, item/spell creation rules are guidelines at best and aren't suposed to be followed blindly.

Even with DM intervention, though, it's simply unworkable. I believe someone did an Epic Meteor Swarm for comparison (that is, the Meteor Swarm 9th level spell created with Epic rules), and it ended up costing several hundred thousand gold to develop, along with a few weeks of research time. Without mitigation, it's impossible to do Epic magic effectively. With mitigation, you get infinite Solar loops and basically freeform play.

[Oslecamo]

Without mitigation, it's impossible to do Epic magic effectively.

That's the point of Epic Magic. It's not suposed to be effective! When you develop an epic spell you don't think "Hey I could use yet another easy to cast combat spell!" You think "Hey I could use a really hard to cast spell for a really cool and/or exotic effect!"

You want spammable, easy to use, cost-effecient spells? You have hundreds to pick up from levels 0-9.

You want to create new species/re-animate whole armies/create planets/shut down suns, at any cost? Then that's for what epic magic is for.

9th level spells are already damn powerfull for combat/support and everything else has trouble even trying to keep up with it. There's really no need for even more cost-effective magic above it.

Epic magic is those super rituals that take lots of time and resources to prepare to perform a single great deed (or at least something that you won't be spamming at breakfast and dinner, wich isn't that epic at all).

Think of the Death Star as the idea I have of an Epic Spell. Blows up planets, but needs a LOT of logistics to support it, including years to build, external field generators, hours to charge up, and a mighty fleet to protect it from attacks while it does so.

If the Death Star was easily mass produced, then it would be the basis of the imperial forces and not really epic.

If the Death Star just dealt a little more damage than your average Destroyer, then it wouldn't be really epic.

Couldn't you just mass produce destroyers to glass your enemies? You could, but it wouldn't be as cool as busting planets!

[The Glyphstone]

That's the point of Epic Magic. It's not suposed to be effective! When you develop an epic spell you don't think "Hey I could use yet another easy to cast combat spell!" You think "Hey I could use a really hard to cast spell for a really cool and/or exotic effect!"

You want spammable, easy to use, cost-effecient spells? You have hundreds to pick up from levels 0-9.

You want to create new species/re-animate whole armies/create planets/shut down suns, at any cost? Then that's for what epic magic is for.

9th level spells are already damn powerfull for combat/support and everything else has trouble even trying to keep up with it. There's really no need for even more cost-effective magic above it.

Epic magic is those super rituals that take lots of time and resources to prepare to perform a single great deed (or at least something that you won't be spamming at breakfast and dinner, wich isn't that epic at all).

Think of the Death Star as the idea I have of an Epic Spell. Blows up planets, but needs a LOT of logistics to support it, including years to build, external field generators, hours to charge up, and a mighty fleet to protect it from attacks while it does so.

If the Death Star was easily mass produced, then it would be the basis of the imperial forces and not really epic.

If the Death Star just dealt a little more damage than your average Destroyer, then it wouldn't be really epic.

Couldn't you just mass produce destroyers to glass your enemies? You could, but it wouldn't be as cool as busting planets!

Except that without mitigation, you can't make a Death Star (or the magical spell equivalent to a 9th level spell that a Death Star is to a Star Destroyer). The problem isn't that epic magic is easy/hard, it's that it's impossible/trivial. Any epic spell with the sort of oomph that you want it to carry will have a Spellcraft DC miles beyond what any mortal or immortal can successfully roll, even before you factor in the cost of development - and once you start mitigating, there's no reason to stop until it's effectively free.

It's not spending vast amounts of money to get a Death Star vs spending efficiently to get a Star Destroyer - it's spending efficiently to get a Star Destroyer, spending the cost of a Death Star to get two Star Destroyers with really fancy paint jobs, or spending the entire economic output of the Galactic Empire for a thousand years to build a bomb that might blow up a planet. The other extreme is optimizing your factory output so that you can make Death Stars for the cost of Tie Fighters or even hand blasters.

[Oslecamo]

- and once you start mitigating, there's no reason to stop until it's effectively free.

There is. Simply the DM steps in and tells you how much mitigation is enough. Like "only 100 dudes can help you in the ritual, and only if it's for creating your death star, not a fleet of Destroyers".

Even then, now that I think about it nothing on the Epic Handbook says you can add mitigators ad nausem. They're all capped except exp cost if I'm not mistaken. Don't have the book available to confirm it tought.

[Fax Celestis]

The godcrab twins:
Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab (CR 33)

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N Huge Outsider (extraplanar, aquatic, augmented vermin)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +42, Spot +37
Languages Aquan
AC 86 (Size -2, Dex +13, Luck +15, Insight +12, Natural +35, Deflection +3), touch 51, flat-footed 73
hp 544 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects, transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, aging
Resist fire 10, cold 10, electricity 35, acid 35
DR 15/epic
SR 80
Fort +34, Ref +28, Will +28
Spd 280 ft. (56 squares); swim 280 ft.
Melee epic tentacle +78 (2d8+46) or
Melee epic claw +78 (2d6+46) or
Melee 5 epic tentacles +78 (2d8+46) and
Melee 2 epic claws +78 (2d6+46)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +82
Atk Options constrict 4d6+46, improved grab, rotting constriction
Abilities Str 63, Dex 36, Con 39, Int 18, Wis 36, Cha 17
SQ amphibious, fast healing 20, constant insight, spell-like abilities, alternate form
Divine Rank 0, domain SLAs (Ocean, Water, Celerity, Animal, Watery Death), grant spells
Feats Toughness^B, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack
Skills Balance +42, Climb +55, Hide +27, Jump +155, Listen +42, Move Silently +31, Spot +37, Tumble +42

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple with a +13 bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target. This bonus is included in the statistics above.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 35th.
At will—acid fog, animal shapes, antilife shell, blur, calm animals, cat's grace, commune with nature, cone of cold, contagious fog, control water, dehydrate, dominate animal, drown, elemental swarm, endure elements, entangle, expeditious retreat, fog cloud, freedom of movement, freezing sphere, greater blink, haste, hold animal, horrid wilting, ice storm, mark of the outcast, maelstrom, mass cat's grace, mass drown, obscuring mist, rushing waters, shapechange, sound burst, summon nature's ally IV, summon nature's ally VIII, time stop, tree stride, wall of ice, water breathing, waterspout, wind walk. Caster level 25th.
3/day—greater dispel, haste, see invisibility. Caster level 15th.

The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

Helcaerfax (CR 29)

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Apocalyptic Voidspawn Advanced Huge Monstrous Crab
Huge Outsider (Augmented Vermin, Aquatic, Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d12+643 (1123 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 120 ft. (24 squares)
Armor Class: 56 (-2 size, +6 Dex +26 natural, +8 insight, +4 luck, +4 deflection), touch 30, flat-footed 50
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+59
Attack: Claw +47 melee (2d6+31+1d8 chaos)
Full Attack: 2 claws +47 melee (2d6+31+1d8 chaos)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 4d6+62+2d8 chaos, improved grab, powerful claws, sound of the apocalypse
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., DR 13/epic, SR 30, immune (ability damage, ability drain, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, mind-affecting spells, paralysis, petrification, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding), regeneration 30, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +28, Will +22
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 22, Con 42, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Jump +71
Feats: Toughness^B
Environment: Temperate coastal
Organization: Solitary
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Like a nightmare crab, Helcaerfax is said, by some, to be the harbinger of the apocalypse. His powers make him seem to be so: none have stood against him and lived--yet.

Combat
Helcaerfax's claws are considered both epic and chaotic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. The extra chaos damage affects all creatures he attacks, though those warded against chaos take half the extra damage. Those with the Chaotic subtype ignore the extra damage.

Amphibious (Ex): Although Helcaerfax is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): Helcaerfax deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): If Helcaerfax hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round.

Powerful Claws (Ex): Helcaerfax always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Sound of the Apocalypse (Su): Once per day, Helcaerfax can utter a word, unleashing tremendous destructive power. The word kills or destroys up to 40 creatures, as selected by Helcaerfax, within a 16400-foot spread, centered on it. A successful Will save (DC 27) resists the effect, but targets within range still take 8d8 sonic damage. Creatures immune to death effects are still vulnerable to this attack.

Regeneration (Ex): Helcaerfax has regeneration 30 . This regeneration cannot be overcome, and Helcaerfax can only be truly slain by dealing it nonlethal damage equal to its full normal hit points + its Constitution modifier and then using a wish or miracle to keep it dead. Helcaerfax regrows severed limbs in 1d6 rounds. It can reattach a severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Rejuvenation (Su): Three times per day, Helcaerfax can restore itself to full hit points.

Annihilating Strike (Su): Whenever Helcaerfax makes a successful critical hit with a natural attack, the struck opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 27) or have its body disintegrated by the powerful energy of utter annihilation manifested by the strike. Those who make the save take the normal damage from the critical hit.

Annihilating Touch (Su): Five times per day, Helcaerfax can use its entropic field to disintegrate nonsentient objects. Helcaerfax must touch the object or make a touch attack against a carried or worn item. Carried or magic items are entitled to a Fortitude saving throw (DC 27). Up to a 10-foot cube of nonsentient matter is affected, so the ability disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure. Objects that make the save still take 12d6 points of damage.

Helcaerfax may use this ability as a free action (still limited in uses per day) against an object that strikes it. If the striking object is destroyed, it deals no damage to it.

This field goes off randomly as well, starting at 2d10% at the beginning of a day, increasing 2d10% per hour, and resetting to the base 2d10% when it does finally discharge. Roll against the generated percentage every hour—Helcaerfax never knows when the discharge is about to occur. When the field spontaneously discharges, everything touching or touched by Helcaerfax must make a save as indicated above. This includes the floor of a room, water surrounding it, and so on. The ability still only affects 10 cubic feet of matter, but makes it impossible for Helcaerfax to keep items for long.

Aura of Fear (Su): Helcaerfax constantly radiates energies that cause fear in normal beings. Creatures within a 30-foot radius of it must succeed on a Will save (DC 27) or become frightened for 21 rounds. Those who make the save cannot be affected by Helcaerfax's aura for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. Opponents with more tahn 40 HD are unaffected.

Vermin Traits: Helcaerfax is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).

These are not CR 33. The DPPDC got taken down by an ECL 13, and Helcaerfax by an ECL 6. Both slayers were high-op.

[Oslecamo]

These are not CR 33. The DPPDC got taken down by an ECL 13, and Helcaerfax by an ECL 6. Both slayers were high-op.

I bet I could make characters of even lower ECL that could take down those slayers!

Optimizing your heart out to take down a monster whose stats you know isn't sign that the monster is over-crd. It's sign that you're optimizing your heart out. And at the pinnacle stands ECL 1 Pun-Pun, able to take down everything and everyone.

Really, the DPPDC has shapechange at will. That alone makes it at least CR 17 when you can turn into stuff like that monster with Wish (su) ability. Did the ECL 13 have to face high-op shapechange tricks or did the damn crab just walked in circles foaming from his mouth?

[Fax Celestis]

Really, the DPPDC has shapechange at will. That alone makes it at least CR 17 when you can turn into stuff like that monster with Wish (su) ability. Did the ECL 13 have to face high-op shapechange tricks or did the damn crab just walked in circles foaming from his mouth?

Actually the DPPDC mostly used mobility spells. I didn't touch shapechange because I always forget about it: as a player I don't touch it (along with some other spells) because I feel like I'm being That Guy™.

[Forged Fury]

These are not CR 33. The DPPDC got taken down by an ECL 13, and Helcaerfax by an ECL 6. Both slayers were high-op.

What was the ECL 6? This didn't happen in a thread somewhere did it? I'd love to see how it unfolded.

[Oslecamo]

Actually the DPPDC mostly used mobility spells. I didn't touch shapechange because I always forget about it: as a player I don't touch it (along with some other spells) because I feel like I'm being That Guy™.

I call foul play then! For a monster to be worth his CR you have to at least use it's strongest abilities!

Did your oponent play as fair as you? Or did he simply cheesed more than you were willing?

[Fax Celestis]

What was the ECL 6? This didn't happen in a thread somewhere did it? I'd love to see how it unfolded.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63584

[Oslecamo]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63584

Could you point out the ECL 13 then as well please?

EDIT:Also, I fail to find the ECL 6 build on that thread. Only ones bigger than ECL 6, and others lower level with infinite wealth cheese.

[Fax Celestis]

Could you point out the ECL 13 then as well please?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3227211 is where it picked up divinity.

EDIT:Also, I fail to find the ECL 6 build on that thread. Only ones bigger than ECL 6, and others lower level with infinite wealth cheese.

Poor memory is poor. I was actually recalling Person_Man's ghost build.

[mikethepoor]

People around here seem to be forgetting that the CRs as given by Wizards assume a party of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard, all of whom are competent but not optimized terribly well. That said, Wizards did start recognizing higher levels of player/character skill toward the end of 3.5 by lowering CRs. Something being taken out by a lone PC 5+ levels lower than its CR usually means not that monster is bad, but the player is really good.

[awa]

also just because a character designed to kill a monster can do so at low level does not necessarily mean the monster is weak particularly if the monster has a wide array of defense or an unusual attack.

[Runestar]

The elder titan comes across as a fair cr30. That's the closest yardstick I can think of. But with 70 outsider HD and caster lv29, it does show that monsters' stats pretty much need to scale exponentially to keep up.

This also reminds me of the laughable advancement rules for demon lords in FC. 1 outsider HD merits a cr of +1? What were the designers smoking?

[LOTRfan]

Isn't it usually +1 per two HD added? Or is the CR adjustment you're talking about specifically for the Archdukes and Demon Lords?

[hamishspence]

I think it's specifically for demon lords in FC2. And does suggest adding other upgrades as well.

The Demonomicon statblocks in Dragon Magazine (and Orcus in Dungeon) may approximately follow the +1 HD: +1 CR rule- it's been a while since I looked.

[Wings of Peace]

A Solar who realizes he is a part of an army of other Solars that are all capable of summoning each other at a moments notice.

[Eldan]

A solar who, like in their AD&D statblock, can also summon Elder Titans