How does displacement/miss chance work vs spells exactly?

[randomhero00]

Doesn't work vs AOE of course, and it works vs touch attacks and ranged touch attacks, but what about the rest? They don't know where you are exactly, so even though they don't need to roll an attack, wouldn't they still have a miss chance?

[Skorj]

Most ranged spells are either "AOE", "ranged touch", or "affects # targets within range". I don't give a miss chance for the last due to displacement etc, as it seems like Sleep, or Hold Person, or whatever wouldn't care about concealment in that way.

[randomhero00]

Most ranged spells are either "AOE", "ranged touch", or "affects # targets within range". I don't give a miss chance for the last due to displacement etc, as it seems like Sleep, or Hold Person, or whatever wouldn't care about concealment in that way.

There's another kind, single target, no attack but you often get a save. I'll look for some examples...

Ego whip for instance.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm

There's others but I'm having trouble finding em.

[Flickerdart]

There's another kind, single target, no attack but you often get a save. I'll look for some examples...

1 is a valid value for X.

Those spells only care about line of effect. It doesn't matter whether someone is where you're looking or a few feet to the side, you have LoE and can nuke them.

[randomhero00]

1 is a valid value for X.

Those spells only care about line of effect. It doesn't matter whether someone is where you're looking or a few feet to the side, you have LoE and can nuke them.

I thought line of effect was only for AoEs? It doesn't make sense for it to be used for single target. If you're targeting someone specifically then you somehow need to know where they are. Otherwise, how are you targeting them?

[Skorj]

Line of Sight and Line of Effect are two different things. The normal case for total concealment is when you know what suqare someone is in, but you can't see them directly. Normal spells work on such targets because magic. Spells that can miss, on the other hand, can miss. Simple as that.

[The Glyphstone]

Because you're not aiming the spell the way you would an arrow or sword. You choose them as a target, and the magic does the rest - a Charm Person doesn't need to 'hit' someone, that's what the Will Save represents.

[randomhero00]

I guess it works cause the rules say so but it doesn't make sense. If you see two targets you still have to decide which to target even if they're in the same square. Unless magic is sentient and omnipotent.

[Starbuck_II]

Doesn't work vs AOE of course, and it works vs touch attacks and ranged touch attacks, but what about the rest? They don't know where you are exactly, so even though they don't need to roll an attack, wouldn't they still have a miss chance?

They would have a misas chance BUT Displacement says they don't because you can still target (Displacement allows targeting as an exception).
A better effect is Shadow magic. Dancing Shadows gives true 50% concealment anmd denies targeting.

[ffone]

I guess it works cause the rules say so but it doesn't make sense. If you see two targets you still have to decide which to target even if they're in the same square. Unless magic is sentient and omnipotent.

Since many of these spells only work on creatures and not objects, they clearly have some ability to recognize a 'creature'. A mirror image is not a creature.

[Claudius Maximus]

You can target someone with displacement or concealment just fine. You can not, however, target someone with actual total concealment unless you can defeat it somehow. You can not target an invisible creature unless you have Blindsight, See Invisibility, True Seeing, or a similar ability. Just knowing the square is not good enough.

In any case it's a binary thing. You don't have a normal miss chance with targeted spells, unless they have Blink, which is very specific in that it foils targeted spells 20 or 50% of the time.

[Kantolin]

A better effect is Shadow magic. Dancing Shadows gives true 50% concealment anmd denies targeting.

Does... it? O_o I reread the mystery and don't see that. Errata?

[lsfreak]

Does... it? O_o I reread the mystery and don't see that. Errata?

You can't target someone that has total concealment. The normal ways of getting 50% miss chance just give 50% miss chance as if they had total concealment, without actually giving total concealment.

EDIT: For example

The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally.

[Seffbasilisk]

If it has an attack roll, displacement/miss chance comes into play.

If they don't have total cover or something to keep you from targeting them at all, then if it just has target: one creature or something similar, you just zap'm.

[Kantolin]

You can't target someone that has total concealment. The normal ways of getting 50% miss chance just give 50% miss chance as if they had total concealment, without actually giving total concealment.

Nice - i'd missed that. Awesome.

*Records that for his shadowcaster*