We reject physics in the name of AWESOME! (ToB Discipline, repost, 3.5, WIP)

[The-Mage-King]

Second (har-har) prestige class up, with another maneuver or so soon to follow.

[The-Mage-King]

Mayhaps I misphrased that...

Please critique the new PrC in the fourth post and the two new maneuvers (one 1st, one 8th).

[IcarusWings]

The new manoeuvres look cool, Skyward Sweep or whatever it is (can't remember the name) seems like it might be a bit powerful for level one but I'm not best on balance.
Omnislash 5 seems quite underpowered, at 15th level which is when you first gain access to it, you gain 4 attacks, this is easily gained through a normal full attack and a single TWF extra attack, at 20th level you need a simple two TWF extra attacks to equal it. Admittedly, the attacks from the manoeuvre are at full BAB and therefore more likely to hit, but it still seems a bit weak.

Also what's the difference between Omnislash 5 and 6, other than a different colour.

[The-Mage-King]

The new manoeuvres look cool, Skyward Sweep or whatever it is (can't remember the name) seems like it might be a bit powerful for level one but I'm not best on balance.
Omnislash 5 seems quite underpowered, at 15th level which is when you first gain access to it, you gain 4 attacks, this is easily gained through a normal full attack and a single TWF extra attack, at 20th level you need a simple two TWF extra attacks to equal it. Admittedly, the attacks from the manoeuvre are at full BAB and therefore more likely to hit, but it still seems a bit weak.

Hm... I suppose I can up that to 1/3rd initiator level.... That gives... well, 6 at level 15, 7 at 20.

Also what's the difference between Omnislash 5 and 6, other than a different colour.

10 attacks, actually.

YES.

[Morph Bark]

Considering they're ToB-based PrCs... a few extra class skills and 4 skill points/level might not be wrong.

[The-Mage-King]

...Point...

Suggestions for the class skills?

[Morph Bark]

Perhaps Gather Information for the Second, Diplomacy could work for the Third too, at least if we're going by the characters they're based off of (Seph seemed quite charismatic and pre-fall not such a bad guy at all).

Climb for either maybe. And it might be worthwhile to consider putting Iaijutsu Focus on the class skill list of one of them. Perform is a definite yes for the First, of course (and Truespeak of course). Also, might want to consider putting in a clause that you can only take levels in one of them.

Lastly, as the prerequisites are now, you can get in with just level 1 maneuvers and stances. Might be the intention, but worth reconsideration, as many ToB PrCs have at least one of their maneuver-based prerequisites include something like "one maneuver of Stone Dragon of level 3" or the like.


EDIT: Also, Spot is one I'd definitely consider for all three. Need to see your targets from far up, yes? A Knowledge skill or two wouldn't be too bad either.

[DracoDei]

I tend to think of full BAB attacks being worth a lot more than iteratives, if only because you can Power Attack for more...


I don't know about Spot... the targets are supposed to be ginormous usually, correct? Buildings and Kaiju?

[The-Mage-King]

Perhaps Gather Information for the Second, Diplomacy could work for the Third too, at least if we're going by the characters they're based off of (Seph seemed quite charismatic and pre-fall not such a bad guy at all).

Climb for either maybe. And it might be worthwhile to consider putting Iaijutsu Focus on the class skill list of one of them. Perform is a definite yes for the First, of course (and Truespeak of course). Also, might want to consider putting in a clause that you can only take levels in one of them.

Lastly, as the prerequisites are now, you can get in with just level 1 maneuvers and stances. Might be the intention, but worth reconsideration, as many ToB PrCs have at least one of their maneuver-based prerequisites include something like "one maneuver of Stone Dragon of level 3" or the like.


EDIT: Also, Spot is one I'd definitely consider for all three. Need to see your targets from far up, yes? A Knowledge skill or two wouldn't be too bad either.

Hm... Will fix the "of at least X level" thing, I was planning the clause about only one of the three being enterable, and... Yeah, those will work.

I'm also thinking Know. (Arcana), and Know. (The Planes) for the Follower of the Third...


Yeah, that'll work.






Also, for the most part, yes, the targets are supposed to be big things that have a -40 on Hide checks. Thing is, the three apprentices decided to take it in a slightly different direction than that after their master died at the hands of a warrior who was trained in fighting people his size...

Yeah, they branched out a bit. Crippling overspecialization, and all that.

[DracoDei]

Ah, right... Spot sounds like it COULD be fine then.

[The-Mage-King]

Edited both PrCs with better skill lists, and added a Special prerequisite that negates the possibility of them being taken by someone with levels in one of the other two.

[The-Mage-King]

Alrighty, alrighty. three maneuver up, basically filling in 1st-5th level maneuvers completely.

I do need some ideas for two 6th and one 7th level maneuvers, though... I'd like a boost amongst them...

Suggestions?

[DracoDei]

I would add the phrase "You may repeat this process until you run out of damage to deal, or inanimate targets you wish to deal damage to." to Wall Smash Expand Destruction. Such was my original intent, and being able to level moderate sized houses with a single blow is perfectly in keeping with the concept of this class. It shouldn't matter much for practical purposes...

[The-Mage-King]

I would add the phrase "You may repeat this process until you run out of damage to deal, or inanimate targets you wish to deal damage to." to Wall Smash. Such was my original intent, and being able to level moderate sized houses with a single blow is perfectly in keeping with the concept of this class. It shouldn't matter much for practical purposes...

...Wall Smash, or Expand Destruction? Because they're not the smae thing...

[DracoDei]

Expand Destruction was what I was referring to. Sorry... thought the other was called "Dynamic Entry" but I see that is the short description.

*Flaps off to edit.*

[The-Mage-King]

Expand Destruction was what I was referring to. Sorry... thought the other was called "Dynamic Entry" but I see that is the short description.

*Flaps off to edit.*

No sweat.

Though I suppose that I should modify the short description on Wall Smash...

[IcarusWings]

For Pick on Someone your Own Size I would suggest putting in a clause about your weapons and stuff growing too, along with all the associated benefits.

[The-Mage-King]

...

...

...I knew I forgot something.

I'll fix that now.

Anyway, about maneuver ideas... Any suggestions?

[Douglas]

Hero's Blade
Prerequisites: Str 15, One Hero's Edge maneuver
Benefit: When wielding a weapon made for a creature one size category larger than yourself, you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: This feat can be taken by as a bonus feat by Warblades. This feat is treated as Monkey Grip for the purposes of PrC or feat requirements. This feat and Monkey Grip may not both be taken.

As written, this feat is actively bad and would never be taken. I'm guessing the intent is for the -1 penalty to replace the normal penalty, and probably also the increased effort, but nothing actually written in the feat indicates that. As is, you take the normal increase in effort, the normal -2 penalty, and the new -1 penalty in addition.

[The-Mage-King]

As written, this feat is actively bad and would never be taken. I'm guessing the intent is for the -1 penalty to replace the normal penalty, and probably also the increased effort, but nothing actually written in the feat indicates that. As is, you take the normal increase in effort, the normal -2 penalty, and the new -1 penalty in addition.

Thank you for that. No one noticed, apparently...

[Douglas]

Better, but you still don't mention the effort required. If it's meant to be Monkey Grip But Better, you need to mention that the weapon category (light, one-handed, two-handed) stays the same. Assuming I have the intent right, try this:

Hero's Blade
Prerequisites: Str 15, One Hero's Edge maneuver
Benefit: When wielding a weapon made for a creature one size category larger than yourself, you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon instead of the normal penalty for using an incorrectly sized weapon. In addition, the effort required to wield that weapon is the same as for a creature of the proper size.
Normal: A creature wielding a weapon designed for a creature one size larger would take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and require one step additional effort, wielding a light weapon as one-handed, one-handed as two-handed, and two-handed weapons would be too big to wield.
Special: This feat can be taken by as a bonus feat by Warblades. This feat is treated as Monkey Grip for the purposes of PrC or feat requirements. This feat and Monkey Grip may not both be taken.

[The-Mage-King]

Better, but you still don't mention the effort required. If it's meant to be Monkey Grip But Better, you need to mention that the weapon category (light, one-handed, two-handed) stays the same. Assuming I have the intent right, try this:

Hero's Blade
Prerequisites: Str 15, One Hero's Edge maneuver
Benefit: When wielding a weapon made for a creature one size category larger than yourself, you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon instead of the normal penalty for using an incorrectly sized weapon. In addition, the effort required to wield that weapon is the same as for a creature of the proper size.
Normal: A creature wielding a weapon designed for a creature one size larger would take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and require one step additional effort, wielding a light weapon as one-handed, one-handed as two-handed, and two-handed weapons would be too big to wield.
Special: This feat can be taken by as a bonus feat by Warblades. This feat is treated as Monkey Grip for the purposes of PrC or feat requirements. This feat and Monkey Grip may not both be taken.

...Annd that is it. I'll just take that, m'kay?

[blackjack217]

In the spirit of the class may I present:

Skull beat down
Hero's Edge (Strike)
Level: Warblade 9
Initiation Time: Full round action
Range: Melee
Targets: One creature of at least medium size
Prerequisites: four Hero's Edge maneuvers
... did you really just take out his skull and beat him to death with it? That doesn't seem physically possible.

Make a melee touch attack. If it hits roll d20 on a 20 the target dies (no save) otherwise you make a auto hit auto crit full attack dealing normal + 1d12 per size above medium.

[DracoDei]

I don't like it... it is too comical and I don't see how it fits the rest of the discipline other than being over the top. This is Final Fantasy here... not the Venture Brothers.

[The-Mage-King]

In the spirit of the class may I present:

Skull beat down
Hero's Edge (Strike)
Level: Warblade 9
Initiation Time: Full round action
Range: Melee
Targets: One creature of at least medium size
Prerequisites: four Hero's Edge maneuvers
... did you really just take out his skull and beat him to death with it? That doesn't seem physically possible.

Make a melee touch attack. If it hits roll d20 on a 20 the target dies (no save) otherwise you make a auto hit auto crit full attack dealing normal + 1d12 per size above medium.

I don't like it... it is too comical and I don't see how it fits the rest of the discipline other than being over the top. This is Final Fantasy here... not the Venture Brothers.

Yeah, I'm aiming for more of the "How the hell does a 5' 10" 150 pound dude jump straight up 50 feet and bisect a dragon with a three foot long sword" style of defying physics than the "kill someone with their own skull" type... Sorry.

Though that style would make for an... interesting discipline...

[blackjack217]

I don't like it... it is too comical and I don't see how it fits the rest of the discipline other than being over the top. This is Final Fantasy here... not the Venture Brothers.

wrong reference

[DracoDei]

Ok, what is it a reference to?

[The-Mage-King]

Ok, what is it a reference to?

Red versus Blue, I believe.

[blackjack217]

Red versus Blue, I believe.

you win the prize, now to find a prize. Also I can't stop thinking of a maneuver based monk. After all, the monk is supposed to be able to do the absurd, but can't.

[IcarusWings]

Also I can't stop thinking of a maneuver based monk. After all, the monk is supposed to be able to do the absurd, but can't.

It's called an Unarmed Swordsage