Running and DEX

[Edhelras]

If you're running, you are denied your DEX bonus to AC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm) . I guess that means that you're as well vulnerable to Sneak Attacks.

Running is a full-round action. So, does that mean that your loss of DEX bonus, and your vulnerability to SAs, lasts until you take your next turn? So that a Rogue can Sneak Attack you not only while you run past her, but as well by moving up to the position you ended your run at, and Sneak Attacking you there?

[hamishspence]

A full round action is not quite the same thing as a 1 round action.

A 1 round action (such as casting a spell with a 1 round casting time) lasts through your opponents turns (if any) and ends just before you take your next turn.

So, in theory, you could argue that the moment you've finished that full round action, you're not running any more, so lose that vulnerability.

[ericgrau]

What happens if you run two rounds in a row? Are you not vulnerable between those two rounds? Really you don't stop and go on your running, you're running continuously. And everything within those 6 seconds happens at the same time we just take turns to keep our heads from exploding. I could see individual attacks and even standard actions and many full round actions being treated as over and done with, but IMO running should deny you your dex until your next turn because it's a continuous effect.

[Edhelras]

Not sure I understood [Re hamisphence]. Do you mean that a full round action ends at the point where the entire round for the whole gaming group including NPCs ends? So that the full round action ends when the group starts anew at the top of the initiative list?

I thought it seemed plausible that if you were indeed running, as a full round action, that running was kind of continous. It would seem strange that you were running for 1 round, then kind of pausing until your next turn.

But the issue really arose to me because the character in question was indeed quitting his running - because his running round brought him to a square from which he could no longer run.
Again, one could argue that the exertion of running (and slowing down) is still keeping him from being able to properly defend himself. I imagine myself after a sprint - puffing and bending, leaning my arms on my knees, that sort of activities.

[ericgrau]

But he still moved more than double his movement didn't he? So he was not hustling, he was running and therefore unable to shuffle around with agility. Sure he hit a wall, but he was still too busy to do any other actions. Maybe he only went 3/4 of his max distance and has 1.5 seconds left, but I'd chalk that up to stopping himself with his hands against the wall, or slowing down to a stop or whatever.

[Edhelras]

I agree, and that's the way the situation was resolved. The Rogue got a SA and that was that....

[hamishspence]

If you run for one round (and stop at the end of your round, with no intention of running in the next round) does that mean you're only vulnerable during the period when you run?

If so, then if you are the last person to act, then during the next round, your enemies couldn't run up and sneak attack you before it's your turn to act- since you were only vulnerable while you were running, and you have stopped running.

However- this may not be an entirely valid interpretation of RAW.

[Edhelras]

But again - I always thought the the whole point of a full round action is that it's something that goes on continously throughout the whole round? Or is it something I missed there?

[DonEsteban]

Nnnoooot, reaaallly... A full-round action is just an action that takes up your move and your standard action for that turn. You shouldn't ponder too much about what that means in reality (tm). It's just a game term.

A full-round action ends when your turn ends (and before the next character's turn starts). A 1 round action (like a spell with a 1 round casting time) ends just before your next turn.

So by RAW you would be running and lose your DEX just during your turn (and thus against AoOs), but not in between your turns. This sounds very silly and a DM would have a good point ruling otherwise, but the rules do not really support it as far as I see. Many things become silly if you move too much during a fight, that's a property of 3e turn-based combat.

[ericgrau]

The run rules don't really say when you get your dex back, so the above is more of an interpretation than a house rule.

But again - I always thought the the whole point of a full round action is that it's something that goes on continously throughout the whole round? Or is it something I missed there?

Yes and no. You can't disrupt a full attack without a readied action for example. The turn based system is an abstraction of simultaneous events. So you need to decide what people are doing during their turn, what continues to happen and can be responded to, and what may only be responded to with a readied action. To make things more complicated there are spells with a full round action casting time that resolve during that players turn and therefore cannot be disrupted without a readied action and spells that take 1 round to cast and don't happen until the beginning of that players next turn, meaning you can disrupt them without a readied action. This was a major balancing factor when changing 3.0 sleep to 3.5 sleep.

[hamishspence]

Opportunity attacks. Target runs through Rogue's threatened squares- Rogue hits him with a opportunity attack that does sneak attack damage.

[Curmudgeon]

D&D doesn't have acceleration. So you go from stopped to running immediately. Similarly, you can end your full turn of running by coming to a dead stop. Since it uses up no in-game action to do so, who wouldn't exercise this option? So, realistically, there's no way to consider someone running on another character's turn even if they spend each of the whole rounds both before and after that running. (Absent a house rule, that is.)

Really, the loss of DEX bonus to AC is just a factor to consider for attacks of opportunity. Because you've got to maintain a straight line, you might not be able to avoid moving through the space some enemy threatens.

[hamishspence]

A typical example of such a houserule might be:

"If the player exercises the option to stop at the end of their run (in order to regain their Dex bonus) they may not use the Run action their next turn"

combined with "If the player does not explicitly say so, they are assumed to still be running at the end of their turn, until their next turn begins"

[Telonius]

A typical example of such a houserule might be:

"If the player exercises the option to stop at the end of their run (in order to regain their Dex bonus) they may not use the Run action their next turn"

combined with "If the player does not explicitly say so, they are assumed to still be running at the end of their turn, until their next turn begins"

I think this would be called the "Zeno Clause."

[SilverLeaf167]

If you think with logic (not RAW), Sneak Attack probably shouldn't work on a running target. It's based on getting to aim (even if just briefly) and accurately hitting a vital spot. I don't know how this would be possible when the victim is running past you at full speed...

[MarkusWolfe]

All I know about running and DEX is that if 1 character is the following:

When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there’s a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.

Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Personally, I'd start by looking to see if there were any other rules that might help set a precedent for this one. As it turns out, there is another full-round action that involves moving faster than your base land speed in a straight line. It's the Charge. Given that the AC penalty from a charge lasts until the beginning of your next turn, I'd say it's fair for you to lose your Dex bonus when you run until the start of your next turn after you stop running.

[hamishspence]

If you think with logic (not RAW), Sneak Attack probably shouldn't work on a running target. It's based on getting to aim (even if just briefly) and accurately hitting a vital spot. I don't know how this would be possible when the victim is running past you at full speed...

You extend the weapon at exactly the right moment, and the target runs into the weapon at full speed?

[Greenish]

If you think with logic (not RAW), Sneak Attack probably shouldn't work on a running target. It's based on getting to aim (even if just briefly) and accurately hitting a vital spot. I don't know how this would be possible when the victim is running past you at full speed...

Because you're bloody well hugely better than any real person ever at stabbing people. Doh.

[SilverLeaf167]

Doh.

I think you mean "duh". Learn your grunts properly, foolish foolyman.
Yeah, that might be it. Maybe you can fluff it as something cool, like "Rogues have momentary slow-mo vision at the very second they make a Sneak Attack (or use Evasion)"