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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    My group homebrews and even erratas the WOTC stuff we don't like or find stupid. Like the Urban Soul, we basically all looked at it and said "remove the part where he gets sick outside of cities" because a. the class was weak as is, and b. We feel that unless you're playing in a campaign where that sort of stuff is suppose to work, like Ravenloft class abilities shouldn't make you unplayable like that.

    A lot of the homebrew stuff I've seen is actually pretty decent, sure a lot of it falls into high tier 3, to high tier 2 areas. The broken stuff you can usually see a mile away. I find that Sturgeon's Revelation does apply here. But I've also found for almost every single class that people have called overpowered, one can simple say "PHB wizard", and shut down almost all of their power arguments.

    Hell if WOTC actually was "balanced" the Magic vs Melee debate wouldn't even exist.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Note the statement "Inherent magic that doesn't run out."

    There is a drastic difference in concept from "I am the Mighty Storm Wizard, I cast Stormy spells a limited number of times per day, and then run away to hide and save up for tomorrow." and "I am the Mighty Storm Lord, I shoot lightning out of my hands whenever I want, and can summon fog whenever I want, and can cause it to rain all around me whenever I want."

    Likewise "I cast Magic Missile 4 times a day, and Wall of Force twice a day" is very different from "I can fire Force attacks at you all day, and summon a Wall of Force anywhere at any time."

    And there are ways to balance those abilities against Spells per day classes such that they are genuinely playable. Heck, Lightning Bolt at will isn't even impressive at level 5, much less at level 7. But all the same, WotC has never even pretended to give options like that outside of a few token reserve feats, the Warlock class, and the DFA class.

    If the Warlock and/or DFA had about 30 times as many invocations and breaths and utterances, that covered a much larger field of available themes (instead of being "eldritch power, and dragony" only), maybe you could cover those concepts. But as is, you can't.



    I mean exactly what I said, inherent magic that doesn't run out.

    And no, that's not a lot of variety, it's pretty much none at all. Make it rain around them at any time? Make a Fog cloud at any time? Shoot lightning (There might be a crappy reserve feat that does only the damage one, but frankly, anything that does something so poorly that a Commoner does it better with NPC wealth isn't worth counting.)

    And likewise, Warlocks and DFAs have incredibly limiting choice of invocations. You can be like a Dragon, or you can be like someone touched by a Demon, but you can't be anything else.



    Yes, there a ridiculous number of ways to get themed or elemental magic that runs out. But there is a ridiculous number (zero) of ways to get it so that it doesn't run out.
    So, basically, you want something like reserve feats, but with variety, and with the full power of regular spells, all day long.

    That IS the recharge magic variant I mentioned early. It's power level is...high. There's a reason it's not terribly popular in actual use. But, it does exist.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, basically, you want something like reserve feats, but with variety, and with the full power of regular spells, all day long.

    That IS the recharge magic variant I mentioned early. It's power level is...high. There's a reason it's not terribly popular in actual use. But, it does exist.
    No what they're asking for is something like Invocations with another theme.

    Personally I find Fey warlocks fairly easy to build without going into homebrew. But when you want a true elementalist from that you need to make some new invocations all your own.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    No what they're asking for is something like Invocations with another theme.

    Personally I find Fey warlocks fairly easy to build without going into homebrew. But when you want a true elementalist from that you need to make some new invocations all your own.
    You can add the different energy descriptors to eldritch blast. If you like fire, you can have fire all day long. Heck, you can do dual progression with a fire based wizard class if that just isn't enough fire. So, you can have invocations, reserve feats, AND fire spells. Replace descriptor as preferred for element of your choice.

    And recharge magic acts pretty much like invocations anyway. You can blast away all day long. Therefore, pick the class with the spells you want. Any class will do. You then have exactly what you want.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    With all the heatedness that seems to be in here now, I will offer something different by talking about what homebrew has seen use in my campaigns:

    The Overdrive Knight: First used in my third campaign, the first campaign that had homebrew in it. The player played a homebrewed race I made myself that was essentially the Rito from the Legend of Zelda. It went remarkably well. The player could fill multiple roles as long as he dedicated his Drives right and took care not to overuse his spell points.

    The Pokémaster: Refluffed and renamed in our campaign as the Jewel Summoner, this class was combined with the Zora race from the Legend of Zelda - which I homebrewed myself just like the Rito. The characters itself was really weak and the player tried to have him focus on ranged combat utilizing an 18th-century style pistol, but his strongest point were still his monsters. At level... I dunno, 6 or so, he started with a unicorn, a hydra, a lupinal and a succubus under his command, enough to create some variety (and hilarious RP possibilities to boot, especially since there were only two players and me as the DM). At some points in the campaign a monster of his seemed to come to overshadow the Rito Overdrive Knight so I challenged this player with trying to make sure his monsters always stayed with him, rather than be stolen, slain, left behind, etc. While I do very much think the class was way powerful, overpowered even with the right monsters (at the end he gained a Ghaele and so suddenly had cleric casting - or when his unicorn became a half-dragon, half-celestial shadow creature), we mostly did it all for fun and to playtest a little with homebrew, see what it'd be like. And it turned out great the way we handled things.

    The Limit Warriors: Our fourth campaign lasted not long, but was very much fun and saw the rise of a trend continuing in the rest of our campaigns, namely that infants of enemies that were encountered/slain are to be adopted and raised properly. The players took the Limit Knight (later the Limit Monk when the Knight died) and the Limit Sniper. We all fell in love with the Limit classes, although the players loathed the weapon creation stuff for the Knight and Sniper and we still think the Martyr should not be and the Psion and Mage aren't necessary and the system makes them stronger than the Sorcerer/Psion they are based off of. The Ninja and Freak we thought interesting too, but they did not see play.

    Limit Dragoon: The Limit Knight and Sniper were not the first brush we had with the Limit system Animana made, as I homebrewed the Dragoon myself after thinking it required its own class. The Overdrive Knight from our third campaign gained a young boy as his cohort at some point, who became a Limit Dragoon, which turned out rather well. Damage-wise and AC-wise, he was stronger than either of the other characters (the Jewel Summoners' hydra excluded), but not as much as to steal the spotlight in any way, and his appearance allowed the Overdrive Knight to play a little more blasty with his magic, or cooperate with the cohort for flanking and such.

    DBZ stuff: Took me a little bit to find this PDF again, but I think the system is awesome and well-made, even if in the fifth campaign it was completely overshadowed by the other character, which kind of made the player feel bad and ultimately this campaign lasted no longer than a session or two. The set-up and division between races, classes and PrCs is good and making differences between the various energy techniques that prevail in DBZ was well-reasoned.

    Masked Demon: This PrC is made by Krimm Blackleaf and was utilized by the second player in the same campaign as the DBZ-based character. He was completely overpowered in comparison to any other character in previous campaigns and overshadowed the DBZ-based character utterly, resulting in the campaign's swift end and the return to the campaign with the Overdrive Knight and Jewel Summoner (Pokémaster). The main problem was prolly that the Inner Demon feat is horrendously overpowered, granting a class feature that an entirely class depends on so easily. Hence why I think it is one of Krimm's lesser works.

    Kantian Paladin: Our sixth campaign began after the third ended for the second time (prematurely, yet again) and the Overdrive Knight/Limit Knight/Limit Monk/DBZ player took up this class in combination with a Lilty race I had homebrewed (based off the Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles race). His swift casting made him quite formidable, but due to the player being hardly an optimizer and sticking to other roles more so that other characters could do their thing kept him from sticking out like a sore thumb. While I think this class needs revising some, it's not bad in basic set-up, and even less so fluff-wise.

    Autoplate Pilot: Stemming from the second player wanting to play a mecha pilot, he took up this class with a homebrew Draenei race I had made (yeah, I should post all these homebrew races, just like I did on gleemax once), but he thought the first level was, in his words, "really lame". So we put in that his Autoplate was Large rather than Medium. In the end, he became just too wicked AC-wise as he found all kinds of things to make it higher and higher, and I regretted having him become Large so early on. I can't really comment on the rest of the class other than that, sadly, as at one point the characters became incredibly warped and this one turned into a Gargantuan Undead Warforged of some sort. So yeah.

    Chozo Warrior: Briefly before changing to the Kantian Paladin, the first player played a half-chozo Chozo Warrior made by Prime32. It went really well and it was a breakaway from his usual paladin/knight-like stuff since he preferred melee bigtime, so it was refreshing to see, and the class turned out to function really well, no problems at all. Compared to melee and ranged folks, it was good, even when compared to the Large Autoplate Pilot. Since the campaign lacked Tier 1s or Tier 2s due to the two-player set-up, I can't comment in that direction, but I'd say it's a good and solid Tier 3 that makes ranged combat more interesting for sure.


    ...and I think that just about covers all of it, besides my homebrew races.


    EDIT: Pardon me, the Lilty I mentioned was not my work - I mixed that up due to the amount of game-based races I have created. The race can be found here along with the Selkie. Both are flavourful and, in my opinion, well-made.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2010-09-30 at 07:43 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    You can add the different energy descriptors to eldritch blast. If you like fire, you can have fire all day long. Heck, you can do dual progression with a fire based wizard class if that just isn't enough fire. So, you can have invocations, reserve feats, AND fire spells. Replace descriptor as preferred for element of your choice.

    And recharge magic acts pretty much like invocations anyway. You can blast away all day long. Therefore, pick the class with the spells you want. Any class will do. You then have exactly what you want.
    2 fire invocations does not an elementalist make; and does anyone even use recharge magic? That's worse than most any homebrew out there.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Note that I said "playable" Anything which is definitionally of a CR half that of a real character is not playable.

    I mean, "You can always be a Vrock (If your campaign starts at level 18, and a valid fight that you are supposed to contribute to is against a Balor)." is not actually an option to play a demon.
    There's always Savage Species' monster classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    Not again...

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    2 fire invocations does not an elementalist make; and does anyone even use recharge magic? That's worse than most any homebrew out there.
    It's reasonable for lower tier casters. Like all balance, it depends on what the rest of your party is, though. Obviously, handing that to a warmage is going to be much more reasonable than handing it to a tier 1 class.

    Beheld, the core playable demon races start at +2 LA. Thats not unplayable. It may not be the most optimal choice for power, but that's an entirely different ball of wax. And that's only if you insist on the label demon. You can get outsider stuff, and demonic-like fluff at +0 LA with lesser tiefling. And that IS a pretty optimization friendly race choice.

    Lack of accessibility to demonic stuff might have been an issue in 2nd, when they tried to reduce that sort of thing, but it's not really a big deal in 3.5. There's a huge variety of evil stuff there, and demons are right smack in the middle of that. You can make deals with em, get evil grafts on you, get demonic or possessed weapons, go to hell, all that great stuff. The whole demon aspect(or formerly demon like creature trying to make good, should you prefer) is rather well covered.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2010-09-30 at 07:45 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Challenge: replicate, even remotely, any of the following using only WotC material (taken from my own work)
    4th edition:

    * Reflavored Swordmage (why call it a swordmage if it doesn't use a sword?)
    * Vestige Pact Warlock
    * Reflavored Bard
    * Assassin who uses mostly implement attacks
    * Artificer
    * Druid|Beastmaster Ranger
    * This is a unique one
    * Ranger|Rogue with a lot of immediate interrupts/reactions

    Personally, I love homebrew, and it looks like you really know what you're doing (with my limited knowledge of 3rd edition). But I just had to take your challenge (you said WotC material, you didn't specify edition!).

    T)

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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, basically, you want something like reserve feats, but with variety, and with the full power of regular spells, all day long.
    No, I don't want the full power of regular spells at will and variety. The whole points was specialized theme magic.

    If you are the Storm King, you don't get to cast Polymorph, and if you are the Force Mage you don't get to cast Control Weather.

    There would also probably be some limiters in there, depending on the ability, like Wall of Force, should probably be at will, but limited to one per round or something, since in general wall of X at will can get a little weird fast, except maybe Fire, since that's only a damage area.

    But since there is literally no way in the game to ever get a class that can shoot force missiles, summon small walls of force, and have a floating Bigby's hand follow them around without homebrew, if I want to do that, I have to homebrew (Or steal someone else's homebrew).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Beheld, the core playable demon races start at +2 LA. Thats not unplayable. It may not be the most optimal choice for power, but that's an entirely different ball of wax.
    The core playable demon race singular starts at +2LA, and 2 Racial HD, or level 4.

    And there is no way to play a dretch, and advance as a Demon, you have to instead advance as a classed character aka, write "I are retarded" on your sheet, because while A Dretch only slightly unplayabley bad at level 4, a Dretch with class levels is even more unplayably bad, and doesn't do demon like things, and therefore doesn't even represent the concept at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    You can get outsider stuff, and demonic-like fluff at +0 LA with lesser tiefling. And that IS a pretty optimization friendly race choice.
    I agree, you can play Wizard with forehead bumps at every level. But that doesn't apply to playing a Demon. By doing Demon things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    There's a huge variety of evil stuff there, and demons are right smack in the middle of that. You can make deals with em, get evil grafts on you, get demonic or possessed weapons, go to hell, all that great stuff. The whole demon aspect(or formerly demon like creature trying to make good, should you prefer) is rather well covered.
    Yes, you can play not a demon lots of way. I'm more interested in playing a Demon. Who does the things Demons do.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    No, I don't want the full power of regular spells at will and variety. The whole points was specialized theme magic.

    If you are the Storm King, you don't get to cast Polymorph, and if you are the Force Mage you don't get to cast Control Weather.

    There would also probably be some limiters in there, depending on the ability, like Wall of Force, should probably be at will, but limited to one per round or something, since in general wall of X at will can get a little weird fast, except maybe Fire, since that's only a damage area.
    So play a warmage. Pick prestige classes that match your style. Or play a sorcerer, and select spells that you feel are appropiate. Themed sorcerers are not that unusual of an idea. Just because the wizard class exists doesn't mean you HAVE to pick it.

    But since there is literally no way in the game to ever get a class that can shoot force missiles, summon small walls of force, and have a floating Bigby's hand follow them around without homebrew, if I want to do that, I have to homebrew (Or steal someone else's homebrew).
    Magic Missile?

    Wall of Force at a low caster level?

    Mage hand? Or Greater Mage hand?

    All of which are on the sorc/wizard spell list?

    The core playable demon race singular starts at +2LA, and 2 Racial HD, or level 4.
    True. If that's a problem, as I said, non-core is an option. There are trade-offs, sure. You can't start off with full-on awesome demonhood at level 1. You can definitely be pretty demonic, though.

    And there is no way to play a dretch, and advance as a Demon, you have to instead advance as a classed character aka, write "I are retarded" on your sheet, because while A Dretch only slightly unplayabley bad at level 4, a Dretch with class levels is even more unplayably bad, and doesn't do demon like things, and therefore doesn't even represent the concept at all.
    You can do demon like things even if it doesn't say demon in the description. Playing with fire, playing the appropriate alignment, worshipping the appropriate god and working for their ends. Not hard.

    You may not like the power level, but there's no need to be offensive about it. They are weak on hitpoints, but have some great traits, such as a coupla immunities and 100' telepathy. Those are abilities that remain very valuable even at high levels. Especially if you drop a feat on mindsight. The resistances and DR will help compensate for your lower hp until you have enough class levels for it to not matter.

    If you really, really want to just "be a demon", you could always take racial HD. Im not sure what the goal of this would be, but if you really feel class progression is a bad thing, it can be avoided.

    I agree, you can play Wizard with forehead bumps at every level. But that doesn't apply to playing a Demon. By doing Demon things.

    Yes, you can play not a demon lots of way. I'm more interested in playing a Demon. Who does the things Demons do.
    There is no [demon] type. There is just the outsider type. Tieflings have it. Because they are descended from demons. They look kinda demonic, too. How demonic they act is entirely up to you, the player.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Select list of invocations dealing with force !/= cast magic missile, wall of force, and greater mage hand a few times per day each.

    Also there is a (Tanar'ri) subtype, and Tanar'ri are the majority of creatures called demons in D&D (and in sources that can't use the word tanar'ri they're Demons once more); tieflings aren't demons but humans with a little of their blood and refluff it how you want it doesn't get Tanar'ri traits. Really though the solution here is to actually assign playable LA's as opposed to unplayable ones. Or play gestalt; succubus is great in gestalt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    First off, I have minor balance issues with this class. It has full BaB, 9th level spellcasting as SU that ignore SR, and can be cast once per iterative attack. Given that they are arcane spells*, shenanigans to add spells to a class list lead to hilariously broken places.

    You also have infinity symbols in spells per day boxes. You also hit 9th level spells as a spont caster at level 17. Considering these involve things like using a prismatic wall chunk as a shield, which lead to rather creative possibilities, I would say that this class would be concerning from a power perspective.

    For the general concept, I'd suggest swordsage with a splash of soulblade. You create your own weapon, and you get lots of special attacks. Arcane swordsage is a possibility if you want a closer replication, but that's also considered a bit troubling balance wise.

    *they are described as both spells and incantations. Both these words have defined meanings elsewhere, so it's possible for some confusion to exist on this point.
    From a fluff perspective, Incantations are a type of spell. From a mechanics perspective, the class doesn't get any Spell Slots and therefore couldn't use any Spells added by a PrC. At least, that was the intent.

    As for general issues with its power - yes. This is one that very much needs testing, and the high-level stuff is all entirely pulled out of my ass. I was playtesting it, but my DM got RL'd and had to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I admit, binder is not a class my players typically select, so I'm not as familiar with it as I am with most material. It appears to favor someone focusing on binding, with a side dose of Incarnum.

    Therefore, I'd suggest making use of the Heresy and Orthodoxy variant of binder, allowing one to make use of your cleric level to your binder level for the purpose of pact augumentation. Then, you've got the sapphire hierarch PrC from MoI, which is your general divine/meldshaping dual class PrC. The bonus feat granted from the combo is kinda nice, too, and can be used to boost whatever your favorite portion of this three part combo is. Improved Binding may be a fun choice.

    Plus, you also pick up some divine spellcasting in addition to binding and meldshaping. It's not exactly the same as your class, but it follows the same general theme.
    Not a... terrible answer, I suppose. But I'm having a hard time calling that "not homebrew" at that point. Anyway, it doesn't quite work out the same - for one thing, the original Binder fluff is present in my PrC, which it isn't in your adaptation, and more importantly, "binding with a dash of meldshaping" is not really the case; the advantage of the class is that you get new soulmelds based on the Vestiges you bind. Your Sapphire Hierarch wouldn't really get anything like that. The addition of Divine Spellcasting may or may not be a plus, depending on the desired character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    There may be further techniques used to optimize the binder/meldshaper combo known to those who play those classes, but as mentioned, not my best area. I found some passages that indicate that binding is divine, but couldn't find anywhere that actually stated it. If a way exists to define it as arcane or divine, then everything above becomes needlessly complicated.
    No, it's not Divine. Vestiges are specifically non-deific, which infuriates/scares both the deities and their clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It's a wizard with a worse casting stat. Personally, just playing a vanilla wizard should entirely replicate the effects of this character in game. Merely place your extra skill points in social skills to compensate for the lower cha modifier.

    Spellweaving is almost identical to wizards spellbooks, as there is no requirement that a wizard use only a single spellbook, and spellbooks can come in almost any form as well. This is actually vaguely similar to a spellscale's abilities, with the use as scroll bit.

    Spont metamagic is available with a feat. It's also available via prestige classes(incantatrix being the juiciest choice here), or by using UA variants. This is quite easy to replicate extremely similar characters with, even with just the SRD.
    Yeah, except the class was basically designed for the sake of a decent Ultimate Magus with Sorcerer. And you can't play an artistic/intuitive mage if most of your spellcasting is Wizardry. It just doesn't work. Yeah, you can put points in Cha-skills as a Wizard if you want, but you can't play a low-to-medium Int Wizard. It just can't be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Monk/rogue prc, with a power point pool, and an anti-magic bent. It also grants a coupla stances from ToB. This class is pretty all over the place.

    First off, counterspelling. Bust open complete adventurer, and dig out the magic churches. If magic exists in your setting(and without it, this class would be odd), then these are quite reasonable. Notice the last bonus on the list gives you counterspelling. Without knowing or preparing the spell, identifying it, or having an action readied.

    Maneuvers. Take a dip in the ToB class that best fits you(swordsage would be closest to this class, most likely). Thanks to half IL in non initiator classes, you'll still be quite respectable in this regard.

    Traps. These aren't really traps, they're constructs. Very limited constructs. Break open your eberron books. They have all the construct crafting stuff you need. If you really want more of a trap feel, with less construct focus, trapsmith instead. The transdimensional aspect is just odd, though. I believe the entire point of multiple planes is that you ARENT on them all at once.

    This PrC is really best replicated by a bunch of dips, since it draws a little from so many sources. The dips would likely be more practical, too, since picking up all the prereqs, both implicit and explicit to make it useful would be a bit of a pain.
    Eh, the version on the Forums needs to be updated; I have better versions of it on Fax's Wiki. It is all over the place. But neither Trapsmith nor general construct crafting matches what the Viz-Jaq'taar does at all. The feel I was going for was very specific (replicating the mechanics of the Diablo II Assassin Trap skills in 3.5), which doesn't exist anywhere else in 3.5 to my knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    See the other dual class fun stuff involving binder. If you decide to venture outside of strictly official territory, it's easiest to just rule that binder is either arcane or divine for the purposes of prereqs. It solves all these issues at once, without writing a specific class for each possible combination.
    Again, I'd see that as at least borderline homebrew. Also, it wouldn't really make sense in terms of spell levels (9 total) versus vestige levels (8 total).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    There's a little known PrC in Cityscape called Urban Savant that does exactly such metagame grabbing of information off the target. It's unusual for classes to get to that level of abstractness, though. I suspect that's intentional.

    However, your capstone is pretty broken. The ability to steal things from others permanently is pretty powerful. Especially class features. See, spellcasting is a class feature. So...yeah. You could take that. It would function based on the targets stats at time of taking, too. So...that wizard is now a smart commoner. You became a high level wizard, in addition to your normal stats, as a standard action. Permanently. And you can still do this to four other casting classes(more with cheese).

    No, you can't normally replicate this short of pun-pun like cheddar. That's a good thing.
    Spellcasting is specifically prevented; there's a line in there about class features that scale (the example given is Sneak Attack, but preventing the stealing of spellcasting was really what I was going for). I do agree with you, the capstone is dangerous. Just don't let someone abuse it. Ultimately, as a designer, I have to draw the line somewhere in terms of preventing cheese. To word things so that it would be "safe" would be hideously complicated, if not impossible, and simply nixing the feature because of possible abuse does not sit well with me either. Which is an advantage I, as a homebrewer, have over WotC - they really should be trying to make their work as close to abuse-proof as is reasonable. I don't really have to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Yay for swordsage. Select manuvers appropriate to the theme. I suppose it could also be done with warblade, if you didn't mind investing some feats.
    Doesn't work quite the same way; I'm also surprised that you say Swordsage, when Devoted Spirit maneuvers fit the bill much better (and Army of One maneuvers that much better).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Woah...random thought on the all-thief.

    It's permanent stolen abilities are capped at 1/2 class level. They normally use the targets stats to determine the benefit...ie, you use them exactly as the original caster did. Now, there are a coupla classes(Legend Champion, for instance), that, as a class feature, progress other classes at every level.

    Therefore, you have an exponentially increasing infinite* cap on permanent steal able things. Since essentially everything in the game is permanently stealable, it's pun-pun in one handy package.

    *Where infinite is the amount of characters with such classes in your campaign world.
    Yeah, I don't design with clearly broken things like Legacy Champion in mind. I just don't.
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2010-09-30 at 08:36 PM.

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    Apparently Zaydos understands me just fine, I can let him do this for me.

    1) Being a Demon is still something, even if it's not a type, you can still be a Demon, or not. In this case, I want to be a Demon.

    2) "Inherent magic that does not run out." Warmages and Sorcerers run out.

    3) Dretch with class levels, in addition to being four levels behind real characters don't do the things Demons do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    From a fluff perspective, Incantations are a type of spell. From a mechanics perspective, the class doesn't get any Spell Slots and therefore couldn't use any Spells added by a PrC. At least, that was the intent.
    Ah, well, then it's actually not terribly off from a glaivelock(ignoring power testing and tweaking)...perhaps with a splash of ToB.

    I'll admit, ToB made this sort of thing a lot easier. There was something of a hole before it arrived.

    Not a... terrible answer, I suppose. But I'm having a hard time calling that "not homebrew" at that point. Anyway, it doesn't quite work out the same - for one thing, the original Binder fluff is present in my PrC, which it isn't in your adaptation, and more importantly, "binding with a dash of meldshaping" is not really the case; the advantage of the class is that you get new soulmelds based on the Vestiges you bind. Your Sapphire Hierarch wouldn't really get anything like that. The addition of Divine Spellcasting may or may not be a plus, depending on the desired character.
    Hmm, true, there's no real tie between the two sides, and that's a weakness. That could be roleplayed, granted, but I'm afraid my optimization-fu isn't good enough with these classes to delve deeper into the mechanics. I want to say that geomancer can be used to progress any of these classes, though, so there's possibilities out there for those who know this area better to explore.

    No, it's not Divine. Vestiges are specifically non-deific, which infuriates/scares both the deities and their clerics.
    Ah, it's language like "Unlike other divine yadda yadda, vestiges..." that gets me. I realize that's hardly enough to be definitive, and conflicts with implications about their relationships with dieties, but it's suggestive, and used occasionally. Meh, perhaps just WoTC types being sloppy.

    Yeah, except the class was basically designed for the sake of a decent Ultimate Magus with Sorcerer. And you can't play an artistic/intuitive mage if most of your spellcasting is Wizardry. It just doesn't work. Yeah, you can put points in Cha-skills as a Wizard if you want, but you can't play a low-to-medium Int Wizard. It just can't be done.
    Ah, the traditional method is to use a pair of int based casters. Personally, I don't mind straying a bit from the numbers, either. Playing a character below his potential in an area is quite doable. Sometimes people are quite intelligent within one domain, but not nearly so bright outside of it. I'd say that someone who is terrific at casting need not be otherwise brilliant, even if there is a big number on his character sheet.

    I keep recalling an odd class in a web enhancement, though...I believe one actually exists, but I can't recall the name of it.

    An alternative solution is to take that feats that make a single spell slot prepared(there's a reverse version to make a single spell slot spont, too. Both are quite useful). Then, you can take two cha based arcane classes directly into ultimate magus. Technically, you don't even need a second class to qualify, using this method, but if you don't have a second class, what's the point of bothering with dual progression?

    Eh, the version on the Forums needs to be updated; I have better versions of it on Fax's Wiki. It is all over the place. But neither Trapsmith nor general construct crafting matches what the Viz-Jaq'taar does at all. The feel I was going for was very specific (replicating the mechanics of the Diablo II Assassin Trap skills in 3.5), which doesn't exist anywhere else in 3.5 to my knowledge.
    Well, constructs with built in traps are quite doable, in a wide range of varieties. Certainly, construct crafting is more flexible, but again, you can choose to have your character focus on a specific area of his abilities.

    I admit, the transdimensional existence across four planes does puzzle me a bit, but perhaps that's difference in the newer version.

    Again, I'd see that as at least borderline homebrew. Also, it wouldn't really make sense in terms of spell levels (9 total) versus vestige levels (8 total).
    It's got precedent, in shadowcaster, which is another of the odd quasi-casting systems, that explicitly qualifies for MT anyway. Kind of odd, since they did make the Noctomancer, so it wasn't even strictly necessary.

    The level thing shouldn't be a problem, since it advances as your original casting class, not by referencing spell levels directly.

    Spellcasting is specifically prevented; there's a line in there about class features that scale (the example given is Sneak Attack, but preventing the stealing of spellcasting was really what I was going for).
    That does limit it then...but it's still immensely powerful, to be able to steal non-scaling abilities is still pretty crazy. For instance, you have plenty of monsters that have, as a class ability "casts as a level x cleric" or what have you. For them, it doesn't scale. Still totally worth nabbing. Anything that lets you permanently take abilities is going to be pretty crazy balance wise.

    I believe that does make it non-infinite, though. The only class abilities I can recall that increase a former class all scale.

    I do agree with you, the capstone is dangerous. Just don't let someone abuse it. Ultimately, as a designer, I have to draw the line somewhere in terms of preventing cheese. To word things so that it would be "safe" would be hideously complicated, if not impossible, and simply nixing the feature because of possible abuse does not sit well with me either. Which is an advantage I, as a homebrewer, have over WotC - they really should be trying to make their work as close to abuse-proof as is reasonable. I don't really have to do that.
    I agree that making such an ability both useful and still safe is likely impossible, because of the sheer volume of existing targets for it. But no doubt you realize that holding yourself to a lower standard than WoTC, even with such a reason, might be troubling to DMs, who likely don't want to consider(or are not comfortable considering) the balance of each possible target as they select opponents.

    Doesn't work quite the same way; I'm also surprised that you say Swordsage,
    when Devoted Spirit maneuvers fit the bill much better (and Army of One maneuvers that much better).
    Was going more by class, since you can add other styles via feat, and for some reason, I think of both duelists and swordsages as being very fast, similar fighters. I agree, though, you certainly don't have to use swordsage for that, and have an excellent point about Devoted Spirit. ToB's flexibility is enough that if you *really* wanted to, you could probably make a decent duelist with any of the three, I suppose. Or all three, if you're feeling froggy.

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    Geomancer only progresses one class at a time, and does that poorly. Also I think the problem wasn't "swapping x to vestiges" as much as that vestige levels scale on a different medium than spell levels which complicates things.

    And here's a challenge a sorcerer/dragonfire adept that actually works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Apparently Zaydos understands me just fine, I can let him do this for me.

    1) Being a Demon is still something, even if it's not a type, you can still be a Demon, or not. In this case, I want to be a Demon.
    What exactly defines being a demon? Do you simply require that the description include the word "demon"? Is any kind of refluffing entirely forbidden? This seems odd, given that refluffing is explicitly encouraged in many places in D&D. Regardless, options for being an actual demon, as described in D&D, have been given.

    2) "Inherent magic that does not run out." Warmages and Sorcerers run out.
    Not with recharge magic. They can, if they wish, cast at the darkness all day long. Thats what recharge magic is. This has already been covered.

    3) Dretch with class levels, in addition to being four levels behind real characters don't do the things Demons do.
    Well, what are the things that demons do? Or, more properly, what things do you want to see your demon do? Because most demons use abilities that are found in identical format in class abilities. SLAs are common. Resistances and immunities are common, and you get them from dretch.

    Basically, this is you saying "I wanna be a demon", and everything I suggest, you tell me "That's not really a demon". So tell me, what defines being a demon to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post

    That does limit it then...but it's still immensely powerful, to be able to steal non-scaling abilities is still pretty crazy. For instance, you have plenty of monsters that have, as a class ability "casts as a level x cleric" or what have you. For them, it doesn't scale. Still totally worth nabbing. Anything that lets you permanently take abilities is going to be pretty crazy balance wise.
    Those are racial abilities, and can't be targeted by the All-Thief.

    Edit: Of course, I'm still not sure about the balance of that ability, anyway.
    Last edited by senrath; 2010-09-30 at 09:35 PM.
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    Great Modthulhu: This is evidentally a hot-button topic for many people, but please remember to keep discussion and debate civil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Ah, well, then it's actually not terribly off from a glaivelock(ignoring power testing and tweaking)...perhaps with a splash of ToB.

    I'll admit, ToB made this sort of thing a lot easier. There was something of a hole before it arrived.
    Yuuup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Hmm, true, there's no real tie between the two sides, and that's a weakness. That could be roleplayed, granted, but I'm afraid my optimization-fu isn't good enough with these classes to delve deeper into the mechanics. I want to say that geomancer can be used to progress any of these classes, though, so there's possibilities out there for those who know this area better to explore.
    I'm reasonably confident that there is just not enough material to combine the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Ah, it's language like "Unlike other divine yadda yadda, vestiges..." that gets me. I realize that's hardly enough to be definitive, and conflicts with implications about their relationships with dieties, but it's suggestive, and used occasionally. Meh, perhaps just WoTC types being sloppy.
    I think it was mostly to sort of give people a frame of reference to compare the Binder to. I agree it's kind of sloppy, but there it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Ah, the traditional method is to use a pair of int based casters. Personally, I don't mind straying a bit from the numbers, either. Playing a character below his potential in an area is quite doable. Sometimes people are quite intelligent within one domain, but not nearly so bright outside of it. I'd say that someone who is terrific at casting need not be otherwise brilliant, even if there is a big number on his character sheet.

    I keep recalling an odd class in a web enhancement, though...I believe one actually exists, but I can't recall the name of it.

    An alternative solution is to take that feats that make a single spell slot prepared(there's a reverse version to make a single spell slot spont, too. Both are quite useful). Then, you can take two cha based arcane classes directly into ultimate magus. Technically, you don't even need a second class to qualify, using this method, but if you don't have a second class, what's the point of bothering with dual progression?
    OK, so we have "ignore your ability scores and take a self-nerf" and "abuse a poorly worded feat to allow a bizarre combination of unintended classes work", vs. "use this simple homebrew class that actually works as intended". Why do you prefer one of the former answers? Why do you consider the latter answer "unnecessary"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Well, constructs with built in traps are quite doable, in a wide range of varieties. Certainly, construct crafting is more flexible, but again, you can choose to have your character focus on a specific area of his abilities.
    As a Swift action?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I admit, the transdimensional existence across four planes does puzzle me a bit, but perhaps that's difference in the newer version.
    That's more an attempt to address as many caster "no" buttons as possible. No taking an Ethereal Jaunt and ignoring her class features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It's got precedent, in shadowcaster, which is another of the odd quasi-casting systems, that explicitly qualifies for MT anyway. Kind of odd, since they did make the Noctomancer, so it wasn't even strictly necessary.
    Yeah, I know, but Shadow Magic is much closer to Vancian than is Pact Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The level thing shouldn't be a problem, since it advances as your original casting class, not by referencing spell levels directly.
    Yeah, but it makes pre-reqs awkward. 7th level spells (a la Archmage) are quite a bit different from 7th level Vestiges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That does limit it then...but it's still immensely powerful, to be able to steal non-scaling abilities is still pretty crazy. For instance, you have plenty of monsters that have, as a class ability "casts as a level x cleric" or what have you. For them, it doesn't scale. Still totally worth nabbing. Anything that lets you permanently take abilities is going to be pretty crazy balance wise.

    I believe that does make it non-infinite, though. The only class abilities I can recall that increase a former class all scale.
    Racial feature, as has been mentioned. I'm pretty sure no class allows you to just "cast as an X level" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I agree that making such an ability both useful and still safe is likely impossible, because of the sheer volume of existing targets for it. But no doubt you realize that holding yourself to a lower standard than WoTC, even with such a reason, might be troubling to DMs, who likely don't want to consider(or are not comfortable considering) the balance of each possible target as they select opponents.
    Meh, I consider my class well-designed from the perspective of its intent and from the perspective of communicating its intent. And, when possible, I will word things to avoid abuse - compare the wording on Midnight Occultist's Pact Magic section with the Anima Mage's Soulbinding feature for an example. I reworded it rather than use the standard blurb because Anima Mage leaves open a huge abuse (that is, it will give you an Effective Binder Level even if you don't already have one). I do consider these things, in some cases (as with the above), more so than does WotC. But some times I have to make a decision that says "I like this feature, and there's no way to enforce its safety but there are plenty of fair ways to use it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Was going more by class, since you can add other styles via feat, and for some reason, I think of both duelists and swordsages as being very fast, similar fighters. I agree, though, you certainly don't have to use swordsage for that, and have an excellent point about Devoted Spirit. ToB's flexibility is enough that if you *really* wanted to, you could probably make a decent duelist with any of the three, I suppose. Or all three, if you're feeling froggy.
    Yeah, I actually have a pretty cool (IMO) version of the Dualist here that turns it into a ToB PrC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Geomancer only progresses one class at a time, and does that poorly. Also I think the problem wasn't "swapping x to vestiges" as much as that vestige levels scale on a different medium than spell levels which complicates things.

    And here's a challenge a sorcerer/dragonfire adept that actually works.
    I am mildly tempted to just start answering "gestalt".

    Well, for starters, both pretty much want dex, cha, and con. The order might be slightly different, but you don't really have any MAD problems. If playing a kobold isn't a problem, shenanigans exist for boosting sorc level, giving you some freedom to play around with dropping levels into DFA. This isn't great, but all dual classing abilities are designed around you being behind a straight caster anyhow, so being +2 levels up to start with on your sorc side allows you some compensation, so you can afford the necessary warlock dip to qualify for eldritch theurge. That puts you barely behind standard dual progression, and you also have some fun warlock toys to mess with.

    You could use archivist instead, I suppose, allowing you to gain the sorc only spells, at the price of a bit of MAD. It would avoid the kobold-specificity, which is a plus, though, and it's much less complicated. Pop into Eldritch Disciple, and life is good. Your DFA level ends up slightly higher this way, but no warlock toys. Archivist is pretty good in general, though, and it opens up turn undead, which gives you access to DMM. So, no real shortage of power here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Apparently Zaydos understands me just fine, I can let him do this for me.

    1) Being a Demon is still something, even if it's not a type, you can still be a Demon, or not. In this case, I want to be a Demon.

    3) Dretch with class levels, in addition to being four levels behind real characters don't do the things Demons do.
    This sounds an awful lot like an argument based on the "no true scottsman" fallacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    OK, so we have "ignore your ability scores and take a self-nerf" and "abuse a poorly worded feat to allow a bizarre combination of unintended classes work", vs. "use this simple homebrew class that actually works as intended". Why do you prefer one of the former answers? Why do you consider the latter answer "unnecessary"?
    It's not so much ignoring your ability scores as an alternative interpretation of them. There is a very, very wide range of acceptable actions from a given set of ability scores...the character sheet is a guideline. You can occasionally act outside your alignment. The barbarian doesn't have to be an idiot, etc.

    I'm quite comfortable with allowing very high levels of optimization in builds. Complex builds don't generally worry me. Untested material does. Plus, I know a pretty good amount of the first party material. It's a given that homebrew is going to require me to learn it. It's not a given that the homebrew will be simple, or work as intended. Heck, half the homebrew I've been handed has been along the lines of "I scribbled these ideas in a notebook". It's vastly easier to just say "I don't allow homebrew, but if you tell me what character you want, I guarantee I can build it".

    If it really turns out to be something that I just can't pull off, but is a valid option, I favor very small changes, as they are least likely to have unforseen consequences. For instance the aforementioned examples of "Monks ARE proficient with their fists" or "for purposes of prereqs, binder counts as divine"
    are relatively simple. They can fit on a very short list of house rules, and are relatively easy for other players to understand at a glance. Custom PrCs require more investment.

    As a Swift action?
    Heck, with minor spell abuse(Unseen Crafter), you can have things made for you by invisible servants, which you can direct as a free action. And sadly, that's explicitly what that spell is made to do. You don't have to have just one either, and the servants are around for day/caster level. It's a second level spell.

    So yeah, you can set traps rapidly.

    That's more an attempt to address as many caster "no" buttons as possible. No taking an Ethereal Jaunt and ignoring her class features.
    I would stick with transdimensional spell for that, allowing the effects to reach across planar boundaries. There's precedence for that.

    Yeah, I know, but Shadow Magic is much closer to Vancian than is Pact Magic.
    A bit. They're called mysteries and the like. Then we have truenaming which is just...odd. That's one area where drastic intervention IS called for. As a class, it just makes me sad. Incidentally, there's a third party version of this that's older, and IIRC, somewhat better, in quintessential sorcerer. Been a long time since I looked at it, though.

    Yeah, but it makes pre-reqs awkward. 7th level spells (a la Archmage) are quite a bit different from 7th level Vestiges.
    Happens. It comes up a lot with different prestige classes. Some PrCs just don't work well in practice for some base classes. Some base classes end up with a lot more practical options, or entering PrCs earlier. The most obvious example is wizard vs sorc. Plenty are even designed for either, but can be much easier to enter with wizard. Changing this would require entirely reworking pretty much everything.

    Racial feature, as has been mentioned. I'm pretty sure no class allows you to just "cast as an X level" anything.
    Good call. At a minimum, I don't think there's a "cast as an X level" anything worth wasting a permanent slot on. You can emulate it to a degree, by stealing SLAs and such(dweomerkeeper springs to mind), but that is somewhat more limited.

    Meh, I consider my class well-designed from the perspective of its intent and from the perspective of communicating its intent. And, when possible, I will word things to avoid abuse - compare the wording on Midnight Occultist's Pact Magic section with the Anima Mage's Soulbinding feature for an example. I reworded it rather than use the standard blurb because Anima Mage leaves open a huge abuse (that is, it will give you an Effective Binder Level even if you don't already have one). I do consider these things, in some cases (as with the above), more so than does WotC. But some times I have to make a decision that says "I like this feature, and there's no way to enforce its safety but there are plenty of fair ways to use it."
    Oh, Im not ripping on your wording...I've seen far, far worse. And WoTC isn't perfect either. But the entire philosophy of keeping a feature, and relying on the DM to make players use it responsibly is one that some people will view with worry. I try to avoid it, personally, because my view of what is a fair way to use it may differ from my players, and it's nice to have a relatively clear list of what's acceptable. As much as possible, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    What exactly defines being a demon? Do you simply require that the description include the word "demon"? Is any kind of refluffing entirely forbidden? This seems odd, given that refluffing is explicitly encouraged in many places in D&D. Regardless, options for being an actual demon, as described in D&D, have been given.
    Being a Demon is about fighting, acting and looking like a Demon, and being able to do the non fighting demon things that demons also do. refluffing can help somewhat, but saying "you can just declare yourself to be a Demon" does very little to actually make you act like a Demon.

    Things that make up a Demon will be addressed below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Not with recharge magic. They can, if they wish, cast at the darkness all day long. Thats what recharge magic is. This has already been covered.
    Recharge magic casters also run out, and that still does nothing to address the listed abilities that don't exist as spells. But no, recharge magic does not in any way constitute such a not running out themed character. Instead, you run out the very first round. You can't cast Lightning Bolt twice in a row at all.

    Abilities not covered by spells: Permanent Floating Bigby Force Hand, Making it rain around you, an Aura of sapping cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Well, what are the things that demons do? Or, more properly, what things do you want to see your demon do? Because most demons use abilities that are found in identical format in class abilities. SLAs are common. Resistances and immunities are common, and you get them from dretch.
    Demons have the following thematic things:

    1) Resistances, DR, Immunities.
    2) Have combat SLAs.
    3) Finish off weakened enemies with natural attacks.

    Non combat things: Eat souls to get more powerful, Greater Teleport at will, make bargains (technically Devils, but they are both the same in every so far listed category),

    Most demons do not use things found in class abilities, most demons use SLAs and Natural Weapons.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2010-09-30 at 10:27 PM.

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    Well, I've got to say that some people are resistant to homebrew due to sheer balance work.

    It is a bit more common to resist homebrews due to the content of the work. If, for example, the DM or the other Players don't like "X", any homebrew based or related to "X" will be resisted.

    Although they seemed resistant, my group has revealed itself very open to homebrews, much to my surprise. It even inspired me into a series of homebrews for my next Eberron game.

    Personaly, I like homebrews.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It's not so much ignoring your ability scores as an alternative interpretation of them. There is a very, very wide range of acceptable actions from a given set of ability scores...the character sheet is a guideline. You can occasionally act outside your alignment. The barbarian doesn't have to be an idiot, etc.

    I'm quite comfortable with allowing very high levels of optimization in builds. Complex builds don't generally worry me. Untested material does. Plus, I know a pretty good amount of the first party material. It's a given that homebrew is going to require me to learn it. It's not a given that the homebrew will be simple, or work as intended. Heck, half the homebrew I've been handed has been along the lines of "I scribbled these ideas in a notebook". It's vastly easier to just say "I don't allow homebrew, but if you tell me what character you want, I guarantee I can build it".

    If it really turns out to be something that I just can't pull off, but is a valid option, I favor very small changes, as they are least likely to have unforseen consequences. For instance the aforementioned examples of "Monks ARE proficient with their fists" or "for purposes of prereqs, binder counts as divine"
    are relatively simple. They can fit on a very short list of house rules, and are relatively easy for other players to understand at a glance. Custom PrCs require more investment.
    Require more investment but work better. All of your counterexamples don't work as well, require not just optimization (which I don't mind) but jumping through hoops (which just seems unnecessary).

    I understand about learning a class - but I'd be surprised if it's nearly as difficult as you seem to think it is, considering how much effort you're willing to put into avoiding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Heck, with minor spell abuse(Unseen Crafter), you can have things made for you by invisible servants, which you can direct as a free action. And sadly, that's explicitly what that spell is made to do. You don't have to have just one either, and the servants are around for day/caster level. It's a second level spell.
    Yeah, I know. But then you need to have them pre-made for you, because you're not creating and fielding them in the same Swift Action. My class does. And that's very important to the theme and feel of the character I was going for with that class.

    Also, the fluff is extremely anti-magic. As in, no personal magic, at all, ever. You can use magic items (that's what the traps are, after all), but spellcasting is denied to you. Can't have that fluff while abusing spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I would stick with transdimensional spell for that, allowing the effects to reach across planar boundaries. There's precedence for that.
    Notice that the Traps do have Transdimensional Spell-like Ability (which doesn't really exist so far as I know but is trivial enough). Transdimensional Spell only works if I'm the one spellcasting, which in that class's case, it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    A bit. They're called mysteries and the like. Then we have truenaming which is just...odd. That's one area where drastic intervention IS called for. As a class, it just makes me sad. Incidentally, there's a third party version of this that's older, and IIRC, somewhat better, in quintessential sorcerer. Been a long time since I looked at it, though.
    Kyeudo's and Kellus's fixes are pretty popular. I haven't really gone through Kyeudo's, but I like a lot of Kellus's, though I have some disagreements on certain points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Happens. It comes up a lot with different prestige classes. Some PrCs just don't work well in practice for some base classes. Some base classes end up with a lot more practical options, or entering PrCs earlier. The most obvious example is wizard vs sorc. Plenty are even designed for either, but can be much easier to enter with wizard. Changing this would require entirely reworking pretty much everything.
    Or you can homebrew a replacement for when the WotC class doesn't quite fit - see my remade Telflammar Shadowlord, done to use Shadow Hand maneuvers instead of Shadow Jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Good call. At a minimum, I don't think there's a "cast as an X level" anything worth wasting a permanent slot on. You can emulate it to a degree, by stealing SLAs and such(dweomerkeeper springs to mind), but that is somewhat more limited.
    Yeah, I went with that wording because at least off the top of my head, I can't think of anything too bad that you could do with it. And by definition, anything you could do with it, someone else could have already done with it, so... yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Oh, Im not ripping on your wording...I've seen far, far worse. And WoTC isn't perfect either. But the entire philosophy of keeping a feature, and relying on the DM to make players use it responsibly is one that some people will view with worry. I try to avoid it, personally, because my view of what is a fair way to use it may differ from my players, and it's nice to have a relatively clear list of what's acceptable. As much as possible, anyway.
    I agree; I did take steps to limit it, instead of just saying "you can steal stuff permanently; be careful not to overpower the game", I did put specific limits on it. Are they enough? Probably not. Do they go a long way to eliminating the obvious problems? I think so. The fact that there is almost certainly something out there that will break it doesn't seem like a huge problem to me, if only because anything that would seems like it would have to be broken to begin with (and therefore the All-Thief isn't exactly causing a new problem).

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    On a homebrew balance note.

    Apparently, Tynamr, you refuse any homebrew on the basis that it can be created in the rules.

    So if two PCs show up, and one wants to be a Force Mage, and the other wants to be Demon, you'll tell one of them to be a Sorcerer with recharge magic, and the other to be a Vrock.

    One of them plays a variant which causes the EL to increase more than just doubling the number of PCs, IE a Sorcerer with recharge is considered superior to two Sorcerers, and the other is an LA mess that literally contributes less than a character 7 levels lower.

    That's... not an actual party that can ever be balanced, and is a larger difference than between most homebrew.

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Being a Demon is about fighting, acting and looking like a Demon, and being able to do the non fighting demon things that demons also do. refluffing can help somewhat, but saying "you can just declare yourself to be a Demon" does very little to actually make you act like a Demon.

    Things that make up a Demon will be addressed below.
    I look forward to finding out what a demon is.

    Recharge magic casters also run out, and that still does nothing to address the listed abilities that don't exist as spells. But no, recharge magic does not in any way constitute such a not running out themed character. Instead, you run out the very first round. You can't cast Lightning Bolt twice in a row at all.
    Those are slots, not spells. You can use a spell in a higher level slot. Ideally, you highten it, for a better save, but that's not required. So, yeah, you can just blast lightening bolt all day.

    And it still doesn't negate reserve feats, which you disliked entirely on a power basis, despite being very close to eldritch blast, power wise.

    Abilities not covered by spells: Permanent Floating Bigby Force Hand, Making it rain around you, an Aura of sapping cold.
    Ok, duration of mage hands...concentration. Sonorous Hum makes that automatic, without you paying it any attention whatsoever. So, yeah, you always have one around. Or, you could blow a whopping 900g to have mage hand at will.

    Making it rain, or cold? Please. The list of such spells is too long to list.

    Demons have the following thematic things:

    1) Resistances, DR, Immunities.
    These are easy. Dretch has these, and they can be acheived in many, many ways.

    2) Have combat SLAs.
    You can get SLAs from classes. Archmage, if you want to stay core. Plenty of other means exist. Select the ones that you find most appropriate.

    3) Finish off weakened enemies with natural attacks.
    Also not impossible to get. Or even difficult. Templates are probably the simplest, but some races start with this by default. Natural attacks are not hard, though they're not especially demonic in nature. Lots of things have them.

    [quotee]Non combat things: Eat souls to get more powerful,[/quote]

    Wait, that's not listed in the Demon section of the SRD. Where you getting that from?

    Greater Teleport at will,
    Demons in general? No. The SLAs of demons vary wildly, and yes, high level outsiders in general typically have a means of teleportation, at least self only, but certainly not all demons. For example, only 6/16 in Hordes of the Abyss have greater teleport, and for them, it's invariably self-only.

    If that's an ability you want, it's possible to get it, but it's a tradeoff in class abilities, and it's certainly not something all demons have, any more than all demons have fire based SLAs. Certainly plenty do, but definitely not all.

    make bargains (technically Devils, but they are both the same in every so far listed category),
    Devils and demons are not at all the same. They're both evil outsiders, sure, but things diverge from there. In particular, making bargains with beings that embody chaos is generally not considered wise.

    But if you really want to get into this sort of thing, it is possible. You can make bargains. Dedicate yourself to an elder evil, or negotiate via diplomacy or what have you. This works much better as a devil, since the whole lawful shtick of devils provides a better atmosphere for bargains, but even in Hordes of the Abyss, there's a class that makes bargains with demons to inhabit their body. The possibilities with possession are interesting.

    Most demons do not use things found in class abilities, most demons use SLAs and Natural Weapons.
    SLAs and natural weapons are found in class abilities. Lots of them. There are still too many options for builds to list at this point, I'd be asking the player for more information than just "a demon" still.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Demons have the following thematic things:

    1) Resistances, DR, Immunities.
    2) Have combat SLAs.
    3) Finish off weakened enemies with natural attacks.
    Several of the examples given have all of these things.

    Non combat things: Eat souls to get more powerful,
    I'm not sure how well that statement is actually supported by the standard D&D mythology. Source?

    make bargains (technically Devils, but they are both the same in every so far listed category),
    Any PC can make bargains. You don't even have to be demonlike in any way.

    Most demons do not use things found in class abilities, most demons use SLAs and Natural Weapons.
    Suggestion: give a specific example of a specific demon that you think can't be created in D&D according to the rules rather than being so vague..
    Kungaloosh!

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: Why all the homebrew hate?

    I've got nothing against it, you just have to run it by me before using it. I don't allow dragon magazine unless I can actually get a look at the article or thin.g they want to use

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