Best everything to take as a thief

[zenanarchist]

Focusing mainly on core with a few internet options (crystal keep and srd) what is the best...well, the title says it, everything.... to take as a thief?

Multiclass options? Feats? Skills?

The campaign will be a city/dungeon crawl based type of shindig.

Traps...yes. Creature killing...lord yes, also at some point we'll be fighting arena combat again. (In which I got slaughtered)

If my current player passes away and my homebrew class gets shut down massively...I'll be taking a thief class.

So....Forum goers. Pump me full of your amazing rogueish ideas.

[gorfnab]

Usually with the "thief" characters I've played I've tended to take anything that wasn't securely bolted to the floor and even then I would still try to take it...

The Rogue Handbook

[Eldariel]

Magic? Yay or nay? 'cause Yay > lots of options.

[zenanarchist]

Handbook is awesome...but tends to use a lot of things not on the SRD, core or crystal keep.

Also, magic is allowed in the campaign yes. Just keep it core/srd/crystal keep

Also, I'm a whisper gnome and am focusing on ranged combat and am level 2. Thus, so far I have quick draw, Crossbow Sniper, Point Blank Shot and will have a light crossbow and hand crossbow as well as a Kukri.

Also....I'm getting conflicting information. What SLA's do whisper gnomes have? And also, they get +8 to hide and +4 to Mov. Silent yeah?

Thanks guys!

[Gavinfoxx]

How about this?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

[averagejoe]

The Rogue Handbook

And for skillmonkies in general this is a nice resource.

[gorfnab]

Also....I'm getting conflicting information. What SLA's do whisper gnomes have? And also, they get +8 to hide and +4 to Mov. Silent yeah?

1/day Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Silence (centered on Whisper Gnome).
I recommend the feats Magic in the Blood (Player's Guide to Faerun) and Silencing Strike (Races of Stone) to take advantage of the SLAs.

Small size = +4 bonus to Hide checks
Also Whisper Gnomes get a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

[zenanarchist]

How about this?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

And for skillmonkies in general this is a nice resource.

Loved both of those. However...with the first...I'm not so sure the DM will allow psionics. However the nerf to Sneak Attack wouldn't hurt since I'm mostly ranged anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

But Psionics is most DEFINITELY SRD. Does he not want to allow psionics because it's 'not balanced', because he doesn't 'like the flavor', or because he 'has no idea whatsoever how psionics works'?

One of these reasons is valid...

Also, here's a decent SRD only rogue...


Tallfellow Halfling or Water Halfling. Combine the two if you can...
1. Rogue1 Combat Expertise
2. Fighter1 Weapon Finesse
3. Ranger1. Improved Feint
4. Ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting
5. Rogue2
6. Fighter2 Iron Will, Deadly Precision
7. Rogue3
8. Rogue4
9. Rogue5 Cloak Dance
10. Rogue6
11. Rogue7
12. Rogue8 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Rogue9
14. Rogue10 Crippling Strike
15. Rogue11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue12
17. Rogue13 Improved Evasion
18. Rogue14 Two-Weapon Defense
19. Rogue15
20. Rogue16 Slippery Mind

[zenanarchist]

But Psionics is most DEFINITELY SRD. Does he not want to allow psionics because it's 'not balanced', because he doesn't 'like the flavor', or because he 'has no idea whatsoever how psionics works'?

One of these reasons is valid...

Also, here's a decent SRD only rogue...


Tallfellow Halfling or Water Halfling. Combine the two if you can...
1. Rogue1 Combat Expertise
2. Fighter1 Weapon Finesse
3. Ranger1. Improved Feint
4. Ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting
5. Rogue2
6. Fighter2 Iron Will, Deadly Precision
7. Rogue3
8. Rogue4
9. Rogue5 Cloak Dance
10. Rogue6
11. Rogue7
12. Rogue8 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Rogue9
14. Rogue10 Crippling Strike
15. Rogue11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16. Rogue12
17. Rogue13 Improved Evasion
18. Rogue14 Two-Weapon Defense
19. Rogue15
20. Rogue16 Slippery Mind

Oh I'm not saying he wouldn't allow it. I'm saying I'm not sure if he would. If he would then Psionic Rogue would be awesome.

Also the above WOULD be awesome except that I'm a whisper gnome (for small size, hide plusses, move silently plusses and AC plus) and focusing on ranged....

Though that does lose me sneak attack. Okay. On that note. Is a ranged or combat orientated rogue better/more optimised?

Edit, my scores are 9, 15, 14, 14, 9, 14 before racial modifiers

[Benly]

But Psionics is most DEFINITELY SRD. Does he not want to allow psionics because it's 'not balanced', because he doesn't 'like the flavor', or because he 'has no idea whatsoever how psionics works'?

One of these reasons is valid...

I would say two are. While "it's not balanced" is provably untrue if you want to go to the time, hassle, and hostility-generation of "re-educating" a DM, "I don't know how these new mechanics work and am not comfortable running mechanics I don't know well" is perfectly reasonable, as is "I just don't like that class and don't want it in my game".

I mean, if a DM specifically doesn't like the flavor it makes sense to ask if you can reskin it as an alternate sorcerer, but sometimes people just don't like a class and won't enjoy DMing for it. Deal with it and roll something that the DM will enjoy DMing for as much as you'll enjoy playing it.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would say two are. While "it's not balanced" is provably untrue if you want to go to the time, hassle, and hostility-generation of "re-educating" a DM, "I don't know how these new mechanics work and am not comfortable running mechanics I don't know well" is perfectly reasonable, as is "I just don't like that class and don't want it in my game".

I mean, if a DM specifically doesn't like the flavor it makes sense to ask if you can reskin it as an alternate sorcerer, but sometimes people just don't like a class and won't enjoy DMing for it. Deal with it and roll something that the DM will enjoy DMing for as much as you'll enjoy playing it.

Well the reskinning thing with psionicist type characters is soooo soooo easy though, and can be done so thoroughly... that was my main point.

And Whisper Gnome is better than the race in that build, but isn't SRD.... is this SRD + Races of Stone?

[zenanarchist]

It'd be more a case of him educating me in psionics. I'm sure he's schooled in it. But due to my level of noobness it might create more problems than benefits that it produces.

Sorry, didn't address your race query.

I said SRD, Crystal Keep, or Core 3.5.

[Gavinfoxx]

It'd be more a case of him educating me in psionics. I'm sure he's schooled in it. But due to my level of noobness it might create more problems than benefits that it produces.

Sorry, didn't address your race query.

I said SRD, Crystal Keep, or Core 3.5.

But... crystalkeep gives you most every race, class, and everything, albeit with a few typos here and there, and often mistakes in the abilities of some classes... look!

{Scrubbed}

See? Base classes. Just play a straight Whisper Gnome Beguiler.

[Benly]

Well the reskinning thing with psionicist type characters is soooo soooo easy though, and can be done so thoroughly... that was my main point.

And Whisper Gnome is better than the race in that build, but isn't SRD.... is this SRD + Races of Stone?

It is easy, but sometimes there's something nebulous about a class that rubs someone the wrong way and it's more productive to just accept it rather than saying "Stop not liking what I like!"

I have a guy I game with regularly who sometimes DMs for us and doesn't really like certain classes for no concrete reason. It's not the flavor, he doesn't think they're broken, he just doesn't like them. He doesn't mind partying with them, but he won't roll those classes and doesn't enjoy DMing for them, so the correct thing to do is shrug and not roll those classes in his games.

[zenanarchist]

Beguiler...

Spellcaster...Problems. As I said...Noob. I'd be lost on what spells to take... How to play a Beguiler well...what it's abilities do (since that site didn't really explain what cloaked caster etc do properly?).

But I've always loved the SOUND of a Beguiler.

[Gavinfoxx]

Beguiler just get's all it's spells from its list. Easy! There are a few more options to customize it, and there's a handbook if you want:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...php?topic=2322

See if you can get access to PHBII, by the way... but all you really need is that base class thing, to pg 148 and 174.

And remember, this is D&D 3.5e. REAL SPELLCASTERS WIN BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUPERPOWERS.

[Eldariel]

I'd just go straight Rogue with Wilderness Rogue-variant, and pick up Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage as two special abilities. This gets you HiPS on level 13, somewhat respectable. Then just go straight Rogue up to level 19 and take whatever on 20.

Maxing out Use Magic Device is rather key, and other than that just taking a bunch of skills and abusing the living out of them. The more efficient option would probably be Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10, but that's a skilled caster. And of course, that loses painfully much in terms of casting; with Unseen Seer, that'd be so much better.

[zenanarchist]

Beguiler just get's all it's spells from its list. Easy! There are a few more options to customize it, and there's a handbook if you want:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...php?topic=2322

See if you can get access to PHBII, by the way... but all you really need is that base class thing, to pg 148 and 174.

And remember, this is D&D 3.5e. REAL SPELLCASTERS WIN BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUPERPOWERS.

What does PHBII get me? Beguiler or...? Where IS Beguiler located by the by?

I'd just go straight Rogue with Wilderness Rogue-variant, and pick up Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage as two special abilities. This gets you HiPS on level 13, somewhat respectable. Then just go straight Rogue up to level 19 and take whatever on 20.

Maxing out Use Magic Device is rather key, and other than that just taking a bunch of skills and abusing the living out of them. The more efficient option would probably be Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10, but that's a skilled caster. And of course, that loses painfully much in terms of casting; with Unseen Seer, that'd be so much better.

Yeah Min maxing and optimisation are not my strong suits. So that first one's better.... Explain Wilderness Rogue variant and how I do that? That's SRD I presume?

[lianightdemon]

Usually with the "thief" characters I've played I've tended to take anything that wasn't securely bolted to the floor

And when they are get a wrench and unbolt them. And if on fire put it out.

[Eldariel]

What does PHBII get me? Beguiler or...? Where IS Beguiler located by the by?

Beguiler is in PHBII. That kinda answers both of your questions.

Yeah Min maxing and optimisation are not my strong suits. So that first one's better.... Explain Wilderness Rogue variant and how I do that? That's SRD I presume?

Wilderness Rogue just switches some skills around, and changes the list of special abilities you can acquire. And as it sounds, is a Rogue that's more at home in wilderness (and more primitive villages) than bustling cities. Though of course, it's not much work to make one at home in both. The benefit is, of course, being able to get Hide in Plain Sight (a very key Rogue ability) without multiclassing.

[lsfreak]

Wilderness Rogue just switches some skills around, and changes the list of special abilities you can acquire. And as it sounds, is a Rogue that's more at home in wilderness (and more primitive villages) than bustling cities. Though of course, it's not much work to make one at home in both. The benefit is, of course, being able to get Hide in Plain Sight (a very key Rogue ability) without multiclassing.

Of course, it's the ranger's HipS, which only works in wilderness. It rapidly loses its usefulness in a city or dungeoneering campaign, unless you can get into a philosophical argument and convince your DM that buildings are natural via the nature of human animals. Well, or you convince him that you can chain ACF's together, and get the Urban Ranger's HipS (which can be used anywhere) for the Wilderness Rogue (which references rangers).

If you want ranged, than a good idea is to get either grab invisibility or hide in plain sight, though. Rogue7/Shadow Dancer 2, grabbing the ACF for evasion and Uncanny Dodge, is good, especially if you can get Mobility via an armor enhancement (MIC) and Evasive Reflexes instead of Combat Reflexes (ToB). Then get stuff to boost your Hide checks - Shadow Armor, high dex, and so on. You can hide while attacking with a -20 penalty, and therefore get sneak attack, and if your hide checks are high enough the -20 shouldn't matter all that often.

If your DM can be convinced on the ACF trading, that would work too, and would probably be better. It'll save you some feats in exchange for delaying it a few levels.

Another option is an Arcane Trickster build, going rogue1/wizard4/assassin1/arcane trickster10. It delays your nonmagical sneaky stuff in favor of getting Invisibility at level 4 and Greater Invisibility at level 9. Personally, I prefer the shadowdancer route for various reasons, not the least of being that magic is complex and you're a self-professed noob Just bribe the party spellcaster to Greater Invisibility you before combat breaks out.

EDIT: I r spel gud.

[ericgrau]

Lens of detection. 1250 gp for a +5 untyped bonus to search checks. Yes please. Oh, but it only works on traps and secret doors, what ever will I do?Elixir of vision. It's 250 gp and only lasts an hour, but it's a whopping +10 competence bonus to search checks. Stacks with the above. With this, the above and taking a 10 if it's there you'll find it.

Sorry I can't be of more use on the disabling side of things. My advice there is to send a summon or the party meat shield in after you think maybe or maybe not you disabled it.

[zenanarchist]

Beguiler is in PHBII. That kinda answers both of your questions.



Wilderness Rogue just switches some skills around, and changes the list of special abilities you can acquire. And as it sounds, is a Rogue that's more at home in wilderness (and more primitive villages) than bustling cities. Though of course, it's not much work to make one at home in both. The benefit is, of course, being able to get Hide in Plain Sight (a very key Rogue ability) without multiclassing.

So I'm thinking of going Wilderness Rogue, like you good folk suggested.

However this appeals to me:

Bugbear
(MM p29)
+4 Str
+2 Dex
+2 Con
–2 Cha
Rogue • Medium Size
• 30’ Movement
• Darkvision 60’
• +3 Natural Armor bonus to AC
• 3HD Humanoid (goblinoid), which grants skill
points, Feats, BAB, & Base Save Bonuses.
• +4 Racial bonus to Move Silently checks
• Level Adjustment +1

I've asked the group I'm playing with but their currently not online and I'm curious....How do I work the 3HD Humanoid Goblin (skill points, feats, BAB, and BSB onto my character sheet? Do I add another 3 D6 hit dice? Do I take three more levels of skills +1 feat + 3 BAB?

Help? lol.

EDIT

Of course, it's the ranger's HipS, which only works in wilderness. It rapidly loses its usefulness in a city or dungeoneering campaign, unless you can get into a philosophical argument and convince your DM that buildings are natural via the nature of human animals. Well, or you convince him that you can chain ACF's together, and get the Urban Ranger's HipS (which can be used anywhere) for the Wilderness Rogue (which references rangers).

If you want ranged, than a good idea is to get either grab invisibility or hide in plain sight, though. Rogue7/Shadow Dancer 2, grabbing the ACF for evasion and Uncanny Dodge, is good, especially if you can get Mobility via an armor enhancement (MIC) and Evasive Reflexes instead of Combat Reflexes (ToB). Then get stuff to boost your Hide checks - Shadow Armor, high dex, and so on. You can hide while attacking with a -20 penalty, and therefore get sneak attack, and if your hide checks are high enough the -20 shouldn't matter all that often.

If your DM can be convinced on the ACF trading, that would work too, and would probably be better. It'll save you some feats in exchange for delaying it a few levels.

Another option is an Arcane Trickster build, going rogue1/wizard4/assassin1/arcane trickster10. It delays your nonmagical sneaky stuff in favor of getting Invisibility at level 4 and Greater Invisibility at level 9. Personally, I prefer the shadowdancer route for various reasons, not the least of being that magic is complex and you're a self-professed noob Just bribe the party spellcaster to Greater Invisibility you before combat breaks out.

I've always loved Shadow Dancer. So what I'm considering now is Rogue 18/Shadow Dancer 2 as a bugbear due to the high strength and dex bonuses allowing me to Sneak Attack the crap out of people.

[Urpriest]

Being a Bugbear means you trade four levels of rogue for three "levels of humanoid"...it's not a great trade. The racial stats sound good, but you'll be more than a level behind on most things even taking them into account. I wouldn't recommend it.

Edit: More detail: a character with a level adjustment counts as one level higher than they otherwise would. A character with racial hit dice adds them to their level to determine their total level. Your Effective Character Level (ECL) is your total hit dice from all your classes/race, plus your level adjustment, and it determines how much XP you get and what level you start at. So a first level Bugbear rogue can only join a campaign with 5th level characters.

[zenanarchist]

Being a Bugbear means you trade four levels of rogue for three "levels of humanoid"...it's not a great trade. The racial stats sound good, but you'll be more than a level behind on most things even taking them into account. I wouldn't recommend it.

Oh bugger that.

Okay then well best race so far then seems to be Wood Elf. For the good bonuses to Strength and Dex. Which seems pretty decent.

Or stay Whisper Folk gnome and go the ranged route, taking Weapon Finesse as well to nullify my strength penalty?

That being said...I reallllly like sneak attack.

[lsfreak]

Oh bugger that.

Okay then well best race so far then seems to be Wood Elf. For the good bonuses to Strength and Dex. Which seems pretty decent.

Or stay Whisper Folk gnome and go the ranged route, taking Weapon Finesse as well to nullify my strength penalty?

That being said...I reallllly like sneak attack.

Elves have the disadvantage of -Con, which is... not at all good. Especially if you're trying to go melee. If you're going ranged, you don't need weapon finesse. I'd say stick with whisper gnome, get a way to be invisible and/or HipS and boost your Hide checks through the roof, and have fun sneak attacking stuff with a bow.

[zenanarchist]

Elves have the disadvantage of -Con, which is... not at all good. Especially if you're trying to go melee. If you're going ranged, you don't need weapon finesse. I'd say stick with whisper gnome, get a way to be invisible and/or HipS and boost your Hide checks through the roof, and have fun sneak attacking stuff with a bow.

Sorry. What? I can sneak attack with a ranged weapon!?

[lsfreak]

Sorry. What? I can sneak attack with a ranged weapon!?

Of course! Your enemy just has to be denied their Dex to AC from the attack, since you can't flank with a ranged weapon. This generally means you catch them unaware (boost your initiative and hit them during the surprise round), use the spell Greater Invisibility or something similar, or boost your Hide into the mid-30's or more around level 10 and take the -20 at Hide while attacking. A Ring of Blinking works too, but does give you a 20% miss chance. You have to be within 30 feet of your target, but yes, you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

[zenanarchist]

Of course! Your enemy just has to be denied their Dex to AC from the attack, since you can't flank with a ranged weapon. This generally means you catch them unaware (boost your initiative and hit them during the surprise round), use the spell Greater Invisibility or something similar, or boost your Hide into the mid-30's or more around level 10 and take the -20 at Hide while attacking. A Ring of Blinking works too, but does give you a 20% miss chance. You have to be within 30 feet of your target, but yes, you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

Holy CRAP. Then whisper gnome it is for sure.

Weapon of choice.....Hand Crossbow? Presumably? Since I can't get anything else due to class restrictions? lol.