How does swift hunter work?

[Zaydos]

I've heard of it multiple times, seen a few projected builds and I know it's ranger/scout with the swift hunter feat to stack levels for Favored Enemy and Skirmish damage (and get skirmish on undead/constructs, etc).

But how exactly does it work? I assumed it was move, many shot, but I was reading the Rules Compendium because a player needed to know about Sneak Attack + Manticore Belt and it specifically calls out precision damage as only applying to the first attack each round with manyshot. So is it just people don't read the Rules Compendium and/or wherever the Rules Comp got that ruling, or is it people ignore this ruling, or is it built around something else entirely and I just didn't realize?

[Glimbur]

Greater Many Shot.

Alternately, Travel Devotion from Complete Champion, or falling, or there are other ways to move and full attack. There's a thread on that somewhere around here...

[Zaydos]

Okay. That makes sense now. Thanks.

[Eldariel]

Greater Manyshot and Travel Devotion [CC] are the most common means of pulling it together. 10' steps (Sparring Dummy of the Master [A&EG], DC 40 Tumble Check [OA], Press the Advantage [ToB]) and various swift action movement items/abilities (Belt of Battle [MiC], Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker [MiC], Anklets of Translocation [MiC], Sudden Leap [ToB], Quicksilver Motion [ToB], etc.) function as backups, generally.

On high levels, you could build it entirely around 20' steps (for Improved Skirmish) but that'd be a tad tricksy. Needs Press the Advantage-stance and some way to take 10' steps by default. Press the Advantage is a 5th level stance (requires 18 levels in non-initiator classes) which is the principal problem; hitting DC 40 Tumble DC consistently is relatively elementary.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Greater Manyshot and Travel Devotion [CC] are the most common means of pulling it together. 10' steps (Sparring Dummy of the Master [A&EG], DC 40 Tumble Check [OA], Press the Advantage [ToB]) and various swift action movement items/abilities (Belt of Battle [MiC], Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker [MiC], Anklets of Translocation [MiC], Sudden Leap [ToB], Quicksilver Motion [ToB], etc.) function as backups, generally.

On high levels, you could build it entirely around 20' steps (for Improved Skirmish) but that'd be a tad tricksy. Needs Press the Advantage-stance and some way to take 10' steps by default. Press the Advantage is a 5th level stance (requires 18 levels in non-initiator classes) which is the principal problem; hitting DC 40 Tumble DC consistently is relatively elementary.

From which discipline? I think a Sublime Ranger/Scout might work for that kind of build....

[Eldariel]

From which discipline? I think a Sublime Ranger/Scout might work for that kind of build....

White Raven so yes, it's available through tradition on 9 for straight Sub Ranger or 11 for a Scout 3-4/Sub Ranger.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was rhunking on going scout 3/monk 1/ sub ranger 16 (monk level can be retrained after using the sparring dummy of the master), getting press the advatnge through tradition or feats at 12

[Eldariel]

I was rhunking on going scout 3/monk 1/ sub ranger 16 (monk level can be retrained after using the sparring dummy of the master), getting press the advatnge through tradition or feats at 12

*shrug* Monk is mostly unnecessary and the Dummy is rather expensive; I'd rather go for Scout 4 and pump Tumble instead. Since Dex is probably your primary statistic anyways, getting +39 Tumble should be relatively easy on 12 if you get items.

[gorfnab]

Greater Many Shot.

Alternately, Travel Devotion from Complete Champion, or falling, or there are other ways to move and full attack. There's a thread on that somewhere around here...

Most of it is covered in the Swift Hunter's Handbook

[Rixx]

Considering how every way of moving more than 5 feet and getting a full attack is some kind of loophole/exploit or is from a different book than the one the Scout is in, I'm pretty sure they never intended you to full attack with skirmish.

Pathfinder Scout is way better, I think - just a Rogue who trades Uncanny Dodge for the ability to automatically do his sneak attack damage when he charges, and trades Improved Uncanny Dodge for the ability to get his sneak attack automatically if he moves more than 10 feet in a round (and it specifically points out that it only applies to the first attack if you manage to attack multiple times somehow). This is on top of normal Sneak Attack, as well, so you can still flank and such.

[Zore]

Pathfinder Scout is way better, I think - just a Rogue who trades Uncanny Dodge for the ability to automatically do his sneak attack damage when he charges, and trades Improved Uncanny Dodge for the ability to get his sneak attack automatically if he moves more than 10 feet in a round (and it specifically points out that it only applies to the first attack if you manage to attack multiple times somehow). This is on top of normal Sneak Attack, as well, so you can still flank and such.

How is this in any way better? The only way sneak attack/Skirmish are worthwhile is with multiple attacks especially in Pathfinder where almost everything got more HP. An extra +1-9d6 on a single attack a round is not worth Improved Uncanny Dodge, not when you are trying to do relevant amounts of damage. You're way better off finding ways to full attack with real sneak attack.

I just wish the logical way to trigger skirmish had not been errata'd away. Mounted Skirmish just makes sense and ugh...

[NineThePuma]

Wait.

They took away skirmish while mounted? There's a Scout variant BUILT on using a Special Mount @.@

[Rixx]

It's better because:

A) You don't need a whole new 20 level base class when a class variant can pull it off and
B) You can sneak attack as well as skirmish, so you can still take advantage of any situation which you would get multiple sneak attacks (I.E. surprised or flanked opponents).

Plus, a lot of rogue talents let you do pretty neat things with your sneak attack as well (cause bleed damage, take a -2 penalty to turn all 1's on SA rolls into 2's and even 3's later, etc.)

Combine the Scout with the Sniper (which you can), and you halve the range increment penalties with bows and increase your sneak attack range as you level, as well.

Plus there are rogue talents for scouts, which give them Heal and Survival as class skills, as well as abilities like using camouflage to hide and halving the penalty for using stealth after a ranged attack.

..Of course, this isn't really the place for an edition squabble - I just wanted to point out why I think the "get skirmish on full attack" exploits are a little dubious.

[Greenish]

Considering how every way of moving more than 5 feet and getting a full attack is some kind of loophole/exploit or is from a different book than the one the Scout is in, I'm pretty sure they never intended you to full attack with skirmish.

Are you channeling the spirits of the designers, or how do you figure that they didn't intend people to use more than one splatbook?

Do you think Skirmish scales slower than SA because the designers intended you to only gain one attack a round?

[Greyfell]

Another way to achieve this is a 3-4 level dip into a psionic class so you can manifest the power 'Hustle' and give up your swift action and some PP for a extra move action every round.

[gdiddy]

Greenish, I don't think all WotC Designers during the 3.5 run read all the books and adequately playtested with people trying to optimize.

I also think a lot of classes, Base and Prestige, are cool concepts with bad math backing them up.

Also:

Spoiler

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Need a Dispenser Here.

[Chen]

Are you channeling the spirits of the designers, or how do you figure that they didn't intend people to use more than one splatbook?

Do you think Skirmish scales slower than SA because the designers intended you to only gain one attack a round?

When it was released I don't think there were any good methods of moving more than 5 ft and still getting a full attack unless you were a race that could pounce (or were mounted, but they errata'd that I believe). It does appear that it was designed in a way to prevent you from full attacking with it.

[Greenish]

Greenish, I don't think all WotC Designers during the 3.5 run read all the books and adequately playtested with people trying to optimize.

True enough, but I still think calling full attack skirmish "dubious" and claiming "designers didn't intend it" is silly. You can't know what designers intended, and single attack skirmish is seriously weak.

Even if designers didn't intend it, it's not an "exploit" or "loophole", it's perfectly valid (and not overly strong) option.

[Edit]:

When it was released I don't think there were any good methods of moving more than 5 ft and still getting a full attack unless you were a race that could pounce (or were mounted, but they errata'd that I believe).

Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement (published before CAdventurer):

Spoiler

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• 1: Falling is a free action. Be creative.
• 1: Buy a wagon or chariot. Have an animal companion, special mount, hired NPC, or party member pull it.
• 1: Snow Tiger Berserker feat (restrictions, Unapproachable East)
• 1: Lion Tribe Warrior feat (restrictions, Shining South)
• 2: Feral template (Pounce, but only on 1st round, Savage Species)
• 3: Hustle power (Swift Action movement, Expanded Psionics Handbook)
• 4: Psionic Lion's Charge power (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
• 4: Marshal 4 (free movement for every ally but not you, Miniatures Handbook)
• 4: Anthropomorphic Tiger (Savage Species)
• 5: Wild Shape class ability (any form that has pounce)
• 5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
• 5ish: Sparring Dummy of the Master (10 ft step instead of 5, requires 1 level of Monk, Arms and Equipment Guide)
• 6: Lion's Pounce feat (Complete Divine)
• 6: Dervish 1 (dance limited times per day, Complete Warrior)
• 6: Sidestep feat (5 ft step after any AoO, once per round, Miniatures Handbook)
• 7: Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
• 7: Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph)
• 9: Wild Plains Outrider 3 (Complete Adventurer)
• 9ish: Psicrown of the Evader (Hustle, others, Expanded Psionics Handbook)
• 9ish+: Twin Power (two powers at once)
• 9ish+: Quicken Power (Swift Action power)
• 9ish+: Quicken Spell (Swift Action spell)
• 10: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets only, Comp Adventurer)
• 10: Crinty Shadow Marauder 5 (Shining South)
• 10ish: DC 40 Tumble Check (10 ft step, Oriental Adventures)
• 11: Kishi Charger 6 (Oriental Adventures)
• 11: Singh Rager 4 (Oriental Adventures)
• 11: Lion of Talisid 5 (Book of Exalted Deeds)
• 11: Temporal Acceleration power (1 free round)
• 12: Elocator (extra 5 ft step, Expanded Psionics Handbook)
• 12: Nightsong Infiltrator 5 (free movement for every ally but not you, Comp Adventurer)
• 13: Geomancer 7 (Complete Divine)
• 13: Halfling Outrider 8 (Complete Warrior)
• 14: Cavalier 6 (mounted move and full attack, but not a Charge, Complete Warrior)
• 14: Teflammar Shadowlord 4 (Shadow Pounce!, Unapproachable East)
• 17: Shapechange spell
• 17: Greater Metamorphosis power
• 17: Time Stop spell (1d4+1 free rounds)

From Person_Man's excellent list. (Well, from one of his excellent lists, that should be.)

[Zore]

I think what bugs me is that skirmish is really a pretty weak ability when it comes right down to it. Arbitrarily limiting it to a single attack makes it entirely worthless. Its like saying you can do 3d6+strength damage OR 1d6+Strength+5d6 damage a round at range or it would be totes overpowered while a warlock, who is not by any means a good damage dealer, can throw out 9d6 eldritch blasts that hit on a touch attack every round. When your damaging ability is weaker than a vanilla eldritch blast there is an issue.

[Person_Man]

I would discourage you from being a Swift Hunter archery build. It takes a minimum of 5 feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, Precise Shot), and you're still limited to 30 feet or less range by Skirmish restrictions.

Instead I would suggest picking up some Pounce and Free Movement (I would suggest putting a Wand of Lion's Charge in a wand chamber, and investing in a few Tumble boosting items to hit the DC 40 needed for a 10 ft step) and using a TWF or Multiweapon Fighting build. If you use two weapons that can be thrown (short spear, dagger, trident, light hammer, etc) you can switch between melee and ranged attacks in the same round, it only takes 3 feats, and you get 3 more attacks per round.

[ffone]

I would discourage you from being a Swift Hunter archery build. It takes a minimum of 5 feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, Precise Shot), and you're still limited to 30 feet or less range by Skirmish restrictions.

Instead I would suggest picking up some Pounce and Free Movement (I would suggest putting a Wand of Lion's Charge in a wand chamber, and investing in a few Tumble boosting items to hit the DC 40 needed for a 10 ft step) and using a TWF or Multiweapon Fighting build. If you use two weapons that can be thrown (short spear, dagger, trident, light hammer, etc) you can switch between melee and ranged attacks in the same round, it only takes 3 feats, and you get 3 more attacks per round.

Oooh! Where's the DC 40 for 10 foot step from?

[Cog]

Oooh! Where's the DC 40 for 10 foot step from?

DC 40 Tumble Check [OA]

OA is Oriental Adventures.

[Ruinix]

I would discourage you from being a Swift Hunter archery build. It takes a minimum of 5 feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, Precise Shot), and you're still limited to 30 feet or less range by Skirmish restrictions.

Instead I would suggest picking up some Pounce and Free Movement (I would suggest putting a Wand of Lion's Charge in a wand chamber, and investing in a few Tumble boosting items to hit the DC 40 needed for a 10 ft step) and using a TWF or Multiweapon Fighting build. If you use two weapons that can be thrown (short spear, dagger, trident, light hammer, etc) you can switch between melee and ranged attacks in the same round, it only takes 3 feats, and you get 3 more attacks per round.

IF travel devoltion is allowed (i put this clear cause ppl like MY dm think its a bug or an exploit ) then, crossbow sniper extend skirmish to 60'.

so.

-Point Blank Sshot
-Precise Shot
-Rapid Relod
-Swift Hunter

with a light crossbow is the way to go.

it may not shine in mid/high lev as damage dealer, but all this is for flavor and concept rather than effectiveness.

[Forged Fury]

So is the consensus here that teleportation effects trigger skirmish? I've heard others argue against it. Their argument is that the character doesn't actually move, but is transported. I thought this was a bit of a semantic argument.

Thoughts? I'd really like to know as I had a pretty fun kalashtar scout/seer with the ability to trigger Improved Skirmish on a full attack several times a day without Manyshot/Greater Many Shot.

[Ruinix]

So is the consensus here that teleportation effects trigger skirmish? I've heard others argue against it. Their argument is that the character doesn't actually move, but is transported. I thought this was a bit of a semantic argument.

Thoughts? I'd really like to know as I had a pretty fun kalashtar scout/seer with the ability to trigger Improved Skirmish on a full attack several times a day without Manyshot/Greater Many Shot.

is not about semantic, is about RAW, the description is very accurate about this.

"a scout relies on mobility to deal extra damage...."

teleport is not a movement, is a shift between places not a move.

[Forged Fury]

is not about semantic, is about RAW, the description is very accurate about this.

"a scout relies on mobility to deal extra damage...."

teleport is not a movement, is a shift between places not a move.

Honestly, if you're going to make that kind of distinction, you could argue that the Scout requires the Mobility Feat to deal extra damage based on the wording.

One can easily define mobility as the ability to get from Point A to Point B by some method. That's where the problem comes in, at least in my point of view.

Scout Errata For Reference: The second sentence of the skirmish class feature should read as follows (new text indicated in red): She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet away from where she was at the start of her turn. The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted.

To me, the question is how to define "moves". It seems the key part is a) has to be 10' away from where the character started and b) can't do it while mounted.

[T.G. Oskar]

*shrug* Monk is mostly unnecessary and the Dummy is rather expensive; I'd rather go for Scout 4 and pump Tumble instead. Since Dex is probably your primary statistic anyways, getting +39 Tumble should be relatively easy on 12 if you get items.

Not necessarily. A 2-level dip gives you good Unarmed Strike damage (good for when someone gets on your place, can be used with feet so you can still have your bow ready, and also benefits from Skirmish if you manage to use the same tactics), Wisdom bonus to AC (which meshes well with the Ranger's need for Wis to cast spells, plus you can attempt to get Zen Archery to work), two bonus feats (you can get Stunning Fist for the first one if someone dares to get close to you, and Combat Reflexes for stuff like Evasive Reflexes or CR-based maneuvers), evasion (or Spell Reflection or Invisible Fist), decent skill points and essentially +3 to all saves. The Dummy is mostly a bonus.

But then again, it can be kinda crippling. However, that shouldn't be much trouble given that while you'll be out of light armor, you can reliably pump your Wis, your Dex, and get Barkskin from Ranger active most of the time. Then again, what you want is a different kind of defense, which can be provided elsewhere (there are ways).

Of course, you could also go for a 2-level Swordsage dip, which grants equal benefits (Moment of Perfect Mind, Wis to AC in light armor, Child of Shadow stance which fits perfectly with the mobility of the Swift Hunter). Just...no Evasion until late enough.

Considering how every way of moving more than 5 feet and getting a full attack is some kind of loophole/exploit or is from a different book than the one the Scout is in, I'm pretty sure they never intended you to full attack with skirmish.

Pathfinder Scout is way better, I think - just a Rogue who trades Uncanny Dodge for the ability to automatically do his sneak attack damage when he charges, and trades Improved Uncanny Dodge for the ability to get his sneak attack automatically if he moves more than 10 feet in a round (and it specifically points out that it only applies to the first attack if you manage to attack multiple times somehow). This is on top of normal Sneak Attack, as well, so you can still flank and such.

UD and IUD are more beneficial than you think. A Rogue denied its Dexterity bonus means they can be hit reliably well (since Dexterity and possibly Dodge are the two main ways to get their AC pretty high, sans UMD) and makes them vulnerable to other Rogues in exchange for...more damage.

It's better because:

A) You don't need a whole new 20 level base class when a class variant can pull it off and
B) You can sneak attack as well as skirmish, so you can still take advantage of any situation which you would get multiple sneak attacks (I.E. surprised or flanked opponents).

Plus, a lot of rogue talents let you do pretty neat things with your sneak attack as well (cause bleed damage, take a -2 penalty to turn all 1's on SA rolls into 2's and even 3's later, etc.)

Combine the Scout with the Sniper (which you can), and you halve the range increment penalties with bows and increase your sneak attack range as you level, as well.

Plus there are rogue talents for scouts, which give them Heal and Survival as class skills, as well as abilities like using camouflage to hide and halving the penalty for using stealth after a ranged attack.

..Of course, this isn't really the place for an edition squabble - I just wanted to point out why I think the "get skirmish on full attack" exploits are a little dubious.

Exploits for making Sneak Attack deal damage to AC 10 + size are even worse. They're also hilariously easier to get than Skirmish full-attacking. However, those are not exploits, and while perhaps the intention of the devs was that sneak attack, sudden strike and skirmish apply only to ONE attack, the fact that otherwise they'd be pretty weak in-battle makes the alternative much more appreciable. I mean, the main way to get Sneak Attack is either flanking or feinting, and I have rarely seen a good build that could use Feinting, probably except Invisible Blade. Mostly because it kills a good action, which is your move action.

I think what bugs me is that skirmish is really a pretty weak ability when it comes right down to it. Arbitrarily limiting it to a single attack makes it entirely worthless. Its like saying you can do 3d6+strength damage OR 1d6+Strength+5d6 damage a round at range or it would be totes overpowered while a warlock, who is not by any means a good damage dealer, can throw out 9d6 eldritch blasts that hit on a touch attack every round. When your damaging ability is weaker than a vanilla eldritch blast there is an issue.

Weak is not what I'd say. Skirmish is actually VERY good, mostly because while you top at 5d6 instead of 10d6 with sneak attack, you also get a bonus to AC. Skirmish's bonus to AC is what Mobility should have always been, but that it isn't, and it's a competence bonus which is rare to see in most games. The other two benefits is that, so as long as you move and the enemy isn't immune to crits or sneak attacks, it always applies, and that it isn't blocked by Uncanny Dodge or Improved Uncanny Dodge, as Sneak Attack does. What happens is that you do less damage for a myriad of other benefits, and the movement requisite which, as it can be seen, is not so hard to defeat.

I would discourage you from being a Swift Hunter archery build. It takes a minimum of 5 feats (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, Precise Shot), and you're still limited to 30 feet or less range by Skirmish restrictions.

It forces you to be tactical, yes, but by no means it's a bad idea. One way is through Greater Manyshot, the other is through finding ways to get Free Movement (which you suggested). Rapid Shot is also quite good regardless of how you get it, and remember you get both Rapid Shot and Manyshot as a Ranger, so it means you only need three requirements instead of five. Another benefit of archery, perhaps questionable but by no means less effective, is that you can get much more enhancements between the bow and the arrows than what you could get via having two weapons. The biggest concern would be range restrictions, but that doesn't mean you can't work around it (quite the contrary, it will be a bit of a hassle for melee characters if they have to move so much, not to mention that if you do a Monk or Swordsage dip you can get them by surprise). It's a different playstyle, of course, but nowhere near as bad.

Now, that doesn't mean TWFing with Pounce and Skirmish is by no means a bad idea, or a worse idea than archery, but the contrary isn't true either. I'd say that it depends on the OP's combat style: if he finds that rushing and attacking is better than point-blank distance shooting, then TWF may be better than Archery; otherwise, the inverse may be true.

[Zore]

Weak is not what I'd say. Skirmish is actually VERY good, mostly because while you top at 5d6 instead of 10d6 with sneak attack, you also get a bonus to AC. Skirmish's bonus to AC is what Mobility should have always been, but that it isn't, and it's a competence bonus which is rare to see in most games. The other two benefits is that, so as long as you move and the enemy isn't immune to crits or sneak attacks, it always applies, and that it isn't blocked by Uncanny Dodge or Improved Uncanny Dodge, as Sneak Attack does. What happens is that you do less damage for a myriad of other benefits, and the movement requisite which, as it can be seen, is not so hard to defeat.

I meant it was weak for a damaging ability if you limited it to one attack per round. Otherwise I'm in agreement with your points.

[Optimator]

Archery itself is feat-intensive. Archery practically is feats.

[T.G. Oskar]

Archery itself is feat-intensive. Archery practically is feats.

Actually...archery is not as feat intensive as two-weapon fighting; you need one feat to remove your massive penalties, and two more to get more attacks, plus two more to apply them to melee attacks (Dual Strike IIRC) and to AoO (Double Hit). The thing with archery is that they made a feat chain from it, almost all if not all requiring Point-Blank Shot (instead of Precise Shot which seems to be the natural entry point). However, considering a martial character, you can take a bow and fight relatively well with it (one attack with your bow as a standard action, up to your iteratives as a full action) while you can't really do the same with two weapons (-4 on the designed main hand, -8 on your designed off-hand, and that's with a light weapon on your designed off-hand; otherwise, it's -6 and -10).

So really: Two Weapon Fighting practically is feats. Archery, not so much. However, compared to two-hand fighting, it is feat intensive (Point-Blank, Precise, Rapid, Multishot vs. simply Power Attack; everything else is "exploits")