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2010-09-30, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
I'm having some trouble finalizing my character. I want this character (starting at level 8) to focus more on debuffing/disabling enemies, so I've already picked out Entangling Exhalation (to couple with Slow Breath) and Ability Focus: Breath. From there, I can go Human and take Dreadful Wrath (to go along with Terrifying Roar, though I won't actually get that for a few more levels). I can't think of a fourth feat to select here. Or, if anyone has a better racial suggestion, what my third feat would be.
Any ideas? Also, please keep all ideas to things that aren't likely to require DM permission, as I can't really contact him outside of the game sessions. Thanks.
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2010-09-30, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Entangling Exhalation + Slow Breath is a combo made in CharOp. Makes for a good lockdown and support character.
Other than that, what else do you want to do other than be the stop sign?SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
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2010-09-30, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Other than that combo, I wanted to go for some fear-inducing invocations (Frightful Presence is the first one I can pick up, but doesn't work with Dreadful Wrath. Only Terrifying Roar in a couple levels does).
The rest of the party consists of a Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut, and a Drow Rogue. Instead of designing my character purely for damage, I wanted to do more battlefield control in order to make my allies' melee skills better.
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2010-09-30, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
My suggestion:
Don't go for Fear effects. Too many things start being immune to them at later levels. Plus, you already have a Will Save or Screwed effect with your Slow Breath. Entangling Exhallation is a Reflex save or Screwed. You need a Fort Save or Screwed. Maybe Nauseating Breath? I'm not familiar with DFA's, but some kind of fort Save or Screwed effect would round out your complement nicely.
Frightful Presence sucks. Almost everything you face will have higher HD than you. Even the mooks. Net sum zero.
Ways to make your area effect stuff 'selective' so you can avoid your allies while punishing opponents? Extra range or radius effect?Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-09-30 at 07:37 PM.
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-09-30, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
At my level, I could take Sickening Breath as my 2nd level breath effect (was planning to go with Frost Breath for cold damage though), which sickens for 2 rounds, 1 on a successful Fort save. There's also a Least invocation called Deafening Roar that deafens creatures for 1 hour on a failed Fort save.
As for keeping my allies safe, I'm taking Endure Exposure (Least invocation) which makes them immune to my breath effects.
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2010-09-30, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2010-09-30, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
I'd stay with Frost Breath, honestly. You don't want to fight things that are immune to your breath...ever. No damage = no entangle. There is almost NOTHING immune to both frost and fire, and generally something immune to one is vulnerable to the other. Stay the cource.
I dunno, I generally like Weakening Breath more than I like Slow Breath. Weakening Breath's -6 Str on top of the -2 to hit from Entangling Exhalation results in a -5 to hit. Thats pretty significant. Slow Breath is nice against things that have lots of attacks though, since getting full attacked generally sucks.
What is your other Least Invocation? You should have 2. Endure Exposure + what? See the Unseen is pretty handy, especially if you can get your grubby paws on a Wand of Glitterdust at mid levels. You can see em, you can light em up.
Also, carry a reach weapon. You are proficient with a long spear. You won't ever use it, but just holding it allows you to claim all kinds of fun AoOs. If you do, make it masterwork at least, and screw in a Least Energy Assault Crystal (Fire). Now you have a weapon that does fire damage. This is important. Now pick up the item Dragonscale Cincture from MIC. It does 2 things. It increases the DC of your breath weapon (win!) and if you are wielding a weapon that does the same damage type as your breath weapon, you get +1d6 damage on your breath weapon. DOUBLEWIN! Note that you won't get the extra damage on your Frost Breath, but hey, something is better than nothing!
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2010-09-30, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
For my second Least invocation, I was mainly considering Magic Insight, though See the Unseen and Aquatic Adaptation were also in mind (it's a nautical-themed game, but I figure Humanoid Shape can likely take care of swimming needs). Though the book says that at each level when a new grade of invocation is learned, you can swap one lower-grade invocation to one of your highest known grade. So I could potentially have 3 Lessers and 1 Least instead of 2 of each.
Oh yeah, and if it helps, we're starting with 30,000GP.Last edited by theonesin; 2010-09-30 at 08:22 PM.
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2010-09-30, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Sickened is a worthless penalty, as it is only a -2 to some things. You're wanting lockdowns, Nauseating is a lockdown effect. Sickened is a minor annoyance.
If Slow Breath is a Fort save, then you are doing well by looking at Fear effects. Terrifying Roar will do well, although avoid anything with a HD cap, particularly anything with an HD cap equal to your own HD, as the opponents HD to your HD ratio slides in their favor more and more as the CR goes up.
Blind is another fun status effect which can be great to apply. It lets the rogues sneak attack, since the targets are now flat-footed, due to being blind.
Nauseating, as I said, is a good one. But don't settle for Sickened.
Stun is really good, if you can find a way to apply it.
Paralysis is also really good.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-09-30, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
DFAs have in-class access to very few of those.
Anyway, Frightful Presence lacks the HD cap that Terrifying Roar has, so that's a good thing. It's a lesser penalty, but once you've made someone Shaken with it, you can get them Frightened by any one of a number of other ways (vanilla Intimidate, Dreadful Wrath, Daunting Presence...), and they'll stay Frightened for the longer duration (in this case, at least 10 minutes), so not bad. Frightful Presence also gives you an in-class use for your swift actions, which is kind of hard to come by otherwise. It's really not a bad Invocation if you want a CHA-based DFA Just don't overuse it so much that your GM decides to make everything immune to fear. Enough will be immune to fear anyway without a frustrated GM intentionally making it so.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2010-09-30, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Sadly, Terrifying Roar is capped at caster's HD.
As for the other effects you mentioned, there's the Least Invocation "Darkness" that creates magical darkness. Not sure if that's the same as blind.
Don't think I have anything purely from DFA abilities to cause Nauseated or Stun. There's a Paralyzing Breath effect at level 15, though there are some other choices there that I might rather take.
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2010-09-30, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Originally Posted by theonesin
Aquatic Adaptation may be a good one for your campaign. Technically, you can't use a breath weapon while using Humanoid Shape, although many DMs will allow it as a reasonable house rule.
Draconic Knowledge can be handy -- one way to help the party is to know how to fight your enemies.
Though the book says that at each level when a new grade of invocation is learned, you can swap one lower-grade invocation to one of your highest known grade.
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2010-09-30, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
One easy feat option is picking up a 3rd Least Invocation with Extra Invocation (Complete Arcane). Probably won't add much to your combat power, but should give you another useful utility spell. (I love Draconic Knowledge, for example.)
You can call me Draz.
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2010-09-30, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
While trying to find where the Least Energy Assault Crystals were, I stumbled upon another thread about DFAs and someone mentioned a Dragonfang weapon. Seems to have the same effect as putting one of those crystals on a normal longspear, so could you then make a Dragonfang weapon (fire) and put an Assault Crystal (cold) to benefit from the Dragon Spirit (named this in the MIC) when using either normal breath or Frost Breath?
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2010-09-30, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Side note: Keld actually got the Dragon Spirit Cincture's effects backwards. The +1d6 damage is always; the +1 Save DC depends on you holding the right weapon.
You can also buy Gauntlets of Energy Transformation (just 1000 gp IIRC, from MIC) to temporarily change your fiery weapon into a frosty weapon.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
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- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-09-30, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
I could, but that would be more beneficial if I had 3 or more types of elemental breaths, but there are too many other good choices, so I'll only have fire and frost. I think the dragonfang weapon + assault crystal would be cheaper too (though I don't really know how to determine the cost of the dragonfang weapon. The entry just mentions 300gp next to Price).
Back to my original question though, I'm still not sure what feats I should take besides Entangling Exhalation and Ability Focus (breath). I could use a feat to help with Frightful presence, but then I could just use Intimidate for that. I have thought about something simple like Improved Initiative, to allow me a better chance to disable enemies before the fight gets going.
And if it turns out I don't really need a fourth feat that much, what other races would you recommend?
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2010-09-30, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Yeah, I recommended the gauntlets because I don't know anything about dragonfang weapons.
Sonic damage breath (at Level 10) is a pretty good one, though.
Back to my original question though, I'm still not sure what feats I should take besides Entangling Exhalation and Ability Focus (breath). I could use a feat to help with Frightful presence, but then I could just use Intimidate for that. I have thought about something simple like Improved Initiative, to allow me a better chance to disable enemies before the fight gets going.
Like I suggested before, you can always use Extra Invocation for a little more flexibility.
I also love Draconic Aura (senses) from Dragon Magic. Take advantage of your free Dragonblood subtype! At Level 8 (where you're starting), it's like taking Alertness and half of Improved Initiative in one feat ... and it applies to your entire party. If you're in a party of four, that's like six feats for the price of one. And it will scale to be even better at Levels 13 and 20.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
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- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-09-30, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
The gauntlets you mentioned cannot change a weapon's energy type to Sonic though, so they wouldn't benefit a Sonic-based breath.
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2010-10-01, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA are all useful to a DFA
If you are going for a lockdown build, my suggestion is to find at least one 'disable' per save type (i.e. one based on Reflex, one on Fort, and one on Will), that way, no matter what your opponent is, you've probably got something that'll work. It's like Elemental Paper Scissor Rock, only in your favor.SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-10-01, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
So far, it looks like my feat selection is:
Ability Focus(Breath)
Entangling Exhalation
Draconic Aura (Senses)
Extra Invocation
As far as having a save vs. everything, I only have access to vs Fort and vs Will. So unless I could Humanoid Shape into a creature that has a vs Reflex extraordinary attack, I don't know what I could do.
Another quick question: Currently my characters Con is 18 and my Cha 16. Should I put my extra ability points in to Con or Cha, or should I also switch the original scores between them?Last edited by theonesin; 2010-10-01 at 12:28 AM.
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2010-10-01, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-10-01, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
True, which is why you should buy a Weapon Crystal that adds 1 Sonic damage to your weapon. Then use other methods (magic weapon, Gauntlets, or dragonfang) to cover your other types of energy damage.
If you don't really want Extra Invocation, you can fish for other ideas on the Dragonfire Adept Handbook. But I'm not really very impressed with most of its suggestions. Flyby Attack is worth considering, though (if you take Draconic Flight as your Level 6 Invocation).
As far as having a save vs. everything, I only have access to vs Fort and vs Will. So unless I could Humanoid Shape into a creature that has a vs Reflex extraordinary attack, I don't know what I could do.
Another quick question: Currently my characters Con is 18 and my Cha 16. Should I put my extra ability points in to Con or Cha, or should I also switch the original scores between them?Last edited by Draz74; 2010-10-01 at 12:49 AM.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
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- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-10-01, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
First off, the text on the Weapon Crystal doesn't mention Sonic as a potential damage type.
At the game session on Friday, I intend to ask the DM on his thoughts about allowing me to keep my breath weapon while Humanoid Shaped. If he doesn't allow it, should I swap in Draconic Flight instead, and take Flyby Attack instead of Extra Invocation? Or if he does allow me to keep the breath weapon, would Flyby attack still work in Humanoid Shape?
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2010-10-01, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Oh yeah. If you can't get that homebrewed, I guess the only way to get sonic damage on your weapon might be to actually pay for a +1 Screaming weapon.
At the game session on Friday, I intend to ask the DM on his thoughts about allowing me to keep my breath weapon while Humanoid Shaped. If he doesn't allow it, should I swap in Draconic Flight instead, and take Flyby Attack instead of Extra Invocation? Or if he does allow me to keep the breath weapon, would Flyby attack still work in Humanoid Shape?You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-10-01, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-10-01, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Well I've pretty much got my character done, except for equipment. With my starting 30,000GP, I've bought so far:
Dragon Spirit Cinture - 2,000GP
Dragonfang Longspear (fire) - 605GP
Least Crystal of Energy Assault (cold) - 600GP
I've been looking at future breath effects to see what I might need. At 10th level, I'm taking either Sleep Breath, or Thunder Breath. Both seem very good, but I'm not positive on which one I should take (though I'm leaning more towards Sleep Breath). But if I took Thunder Breath instead, I could get those gauntlets that change a weapon's energy type, and just carry around a longspear with some fire effect and be able to turn it into cold or sonic, which would save me money instead of buying a third weapon/mod to get sonic damage. Edit: Forgot the gauntlets don't allow you to change the energy type to Sonic.
I'm also thinking about my 15th level breath effect. The party in this campaign are pirates (part of a bigger crew), so it wouldn't be a stretch to make my character's alignment be Evil so I could use Fivefold Breath of Tiamat. But if for some reason the DM doesn't let me play an Evil character, what would be the better option then? I could go Good and take Bahamut's Breath, I could go Neutral and still take Tiamat's Breath (but then take 4x my level in damage), or I could take something else like Force Breath.
In any case, I'm not sure what other items to look into, besides an Amulet of Health, and Cloak of Charisma. I would like to be able to use wands, but I'm not sure how that would work if I'm two-handing a longspear all the time.Last edited by theonesin; 2010-10-01 at 02:07 PM.
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2010-10-01, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
You can get a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) and put one wand in there, and you could have a buckler on your arm (won't affect your AoOs) and put another Wand Chamber in there.
If I was you, I'd get a pair of Anklets of Translocation, maybe 2. They are amazing and cheap. For wands, hmmmm, Entangle in one would be a great situational crowd control option. Ray of Enfeeblement would be another ok one. It stacks with Weakening Breath for BBEG crippling. Benign Transposition is another amazing wand as well. Then there's always the fallback Lesser Vigor wand, the best HP/GP recovery consumable in the game, but thats not really a combat wand.
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2010-10-01, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Lesser Vigor would probably be helpful since we really don't have a designated healer in the party (the Rogue, being a brand-new player, may not have bought healing potions).
About the buckler though, DFAs have no proficiency with shields. I guess I can still wear one, but I've never played a character who wore stuff they weren't proficient with, so how would that affect me?
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2010-10-01, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
You take the Armor Check Penalty to your attack rolls and all Str and Dex-based skill checks/ability checks instead of only taking the ACP on those skills it normally penalizes. Note that a buckler only has a -1 ACP, which is lowered to 0 when you make it Masterwork, which means you basically don't give a dang whether or not you're proficient with it.
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2010-10-01, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A little help with a supportive Dragonfire Adept (D&D 3.5)
Grab a bunch of lesser vigor. They're the cheapest out-of-combat healing you can get. 550 hit points healed for a mere 750gp. Getting the same amount of healing from potions costs... about 5000gp. Or a staggering 22000gp if you got it through potions of cure serious wounds instead of cure light.
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