[3.5] Ruling Question

[Zertryx]

I had a question about the monk's spell resistance, If a player trys to cast a cure spell on him (which has spell resistance) does it mean you can't heal him? or he has to make a will save for half? or can he opt to not have it be resisted and heal fully by another member?

[Anterean]

The monk in question would have to lower his spell resistance, and it would then be down (against all spells) until his next turn.
source

[Shhalahr Windrider]

or he has to make a will save for half?

Resistance and saving throws are two different things. Nothing forces an otherwise willing creature to make a saving throw.

In any case, as Anterean said, the monk would have to take a standard action to lower the SR for a round. However, SR does not interfere with a creature’s own spells or items. So if the monk obtained the ability to cast its own healing spells or at least carried a lot of potions of cure serious wounds, it wouldn’t have to worry abou the SR.

[Gabe the Bard]

In our group, we usually just allow SR to be bypassed automatically when we're casting healing or buff spells on each other. It makes things easier and faster for the players and the DM.

[Snake-Aes]

I had a question about the monk's spell resistance, If a player trys to cast a cure spell on him (which has spell resistance) does it mean you can't heal him? or he has to make a will save for half? or can he opt to not have it be resisted and heal fully by another member?

Saves for harmless spells are entirely optional. Spell Resistance, on the other hand, has to be "Manually" lowered if you want to avoid the CL check. This takes a standard action as per the SR rules. You don't need to lower it to receive a buff, but it surely helps if the buffer doesn't have to make a caster level against you.

[Yuki Akuma]

Saves for harmless spells are entirely optional. Spell Resistance, on the other hand, has to be "Manually" lowered if you want to avoid the CL check. This takes a standard action as per the SR rules. You don't need to lower it to receive a buff, but it surely helps if the buffer doesn't have to make a caster level against you.

Not that a monk's SR will ever stop any spell from any spellcaster around his own level.

[Hackulator]

Not that a monk's SR will ever stop any spell from any spellcaster around his own level.

I don't know why people always complain about the monks SR. When they get it, a same level caster with Greater Spell Pen would still need to roll a 7 to beat their SR, which means that 30% of the time, they don't even have to make a saving though. If their class ability said "Monks ignore 30% of all spells that allow SR" people would probably think its cool, but because you can't push the SR to ungodly levels, everyone seems to think its terrible.

[Coidzor]

It's more that there's so many things to beat SR and ways to boost CL. I think.

[Yuki Akuma]

CL boosters are not uncommon. Assay Spell Resistance is not a particularly high-level spell. And anything that requires your opponent to roll below average is not a great defensive ability!

Sure, a mage who isn't tricked out for defeating spell resistance still fails 30% of the time. And succeeds 70% of the time.

[Amphetryon]

I don't know why people always complain about the monks SR. When they get it, a same level caster with Greater Spell Pen would still need to roll a 7 to beat their SR, which means that 30% of the time, they don't even have to make a saving though. If their class ability said "Monks ignore 30% of all spells that allow SR" people would probably think its cool, but because you can't push the SR to ungodly levels, everyone seems to think its terrible.

The majority of optimizers don't choose very many spells that allow SR, period. That makes "30% of all spells that allow SR" turn into "2% of all spells that show up in our game." Couple that with 30% being a number based on the apparent assumption that the caster who relies on SR:Yes spells isn't optimizing to overcome SR, which would likely turn that estimate to more like 10%.

How does "10% chance to ignore 2% of the spells cast by 10% of the casters we're likely to face" sound as an ability? I mean, sure, it's an 'always on' ability that you didn't expend additional resources besides Monk levels to obtain, but...

[Hackulator]

The majority of optimizers don't choose very many spells that allow SR, period.

Do you play in all pvp D&D games or something? Generally in D&D when you're a monk, you're fighting against either monsters out of an MM, who usually aren't super optimized, or NPCs written by your DM, who are generally optimized to the same extent as the party is. Maybe if you're playing in some arena style PbP game, your comments make sense, but in an actual game of D&D they don't.

Take, for example, a standard CR 13 (monks get SR 23 at level 13) monster, a Death Slaad. They have caster level 15, so they only need to roll an 8 to beat your SR. However, this means that 35% of the time you don't even need to roll a save. Another CR 13, a Ghaele Eladrin, has even lower castier level for its SLAs and Spells, so you ignore even more.

[Snake-Aes]

Do you play in all pvp D&D games or something? Generally in D&D when you're a monk, you're fighting against either monsters out of an MM, who usually aren't super optimized, or NPCs written by your DM, who are generally optimized to the same extent as the party is. Maybe if you're playing in some arena style PbP game, your comments make sense, but in an actual game of D&D they don't.

Take, for example, a standard CR 13 (monks get SR 23 at level 13) monster, a Death Slaad. They have caster level 15, so they only need to roll an 8 to beat your SR. However, this means that 35% of the time you don't even need to roll a save. Another CR 13, a Ghaele Eladrin, has even lower castier level for its SLAs and Spells, so you ignore even more.

It's more that it doesn't really matter how they compare to monsters. People will just look at the monk, look at another class and say "Man, the monk has nothing for him". Throwing monk-ready enemies at a monk doesn't make a monk better than a sorcerer.

[Hackulator]

It's more that it doesn't really matter how they compare to monsters.

I think it often only matters how it compares to monsters. D&D games are often "pvp off", so how your character does in a fight against another character means nothing compared to how it does in a fight against a monster. I'm not talking about throwing "monk ready" enemies at him, just standard ones.

[Amphetryon]

Do you play in all pvp D&D games or something? Generally in D&D when you're a monk, you're fighting against either monsters out of an MM, who usually aren't super optimized, or NPCs written by your DM, who are generally optimized to the same extent as the party is. Maybe if you're playing in some arena style PbP game, your comments make sense, but in an actual game of D&D they don't.

Take, for example, a standard CR 13 (monks get SR 23 at level 13) monster, a Death Slaad. They have caster level 15, so they only need to roll an 8 to beat your SR. However, this means that 35% of the time you don't even need to roll a save. Another CR 13, a Ghaele Eladrin, has even lower castier level for its SLAs and Spells, so you ignore even more.

The games that I see, mostly, stop using monsters as legitimate threats to the party after about 6th level. They make the occasional appearance on the random encounter field, but from low mid-levels on, monsters without class levels are not prominently featured in, for example, urban campaigns, courtly intrigue who-done-its, and games in general that have had well-coordinated, optimized players.

YMMV, obviously, but the number of monsters that live up to their CR just seems to diminish at a geometric rate after about CR 8.

[Snake-Aes]

I think it often only matters how it compares to monsters. D&D games are often "pvp off", so how your character does in a fight against another character means nothing compared to how it does in a fight against a monster. I'm not talking about throwing "monk ready" enemies at him, just standard ones.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter how much the game actually reflects that. the players come and bring these other cases. I have yet to see a game with a wizard wearing a reduced lead hat, thus I don't care, but you'll hear plenty from people here that have (or not but complain anyway) that such thing can be pulled and make a big deal of it.

The imbalance exists. The problem usually doesn't. People complain anyway.

[Sliver]

games in general that have had well-coordinated, optimized players..

Those games generally do not feature a normal PHB monk. In a campaign where such a monk works, there will be MM monsters or low optimization classes, as well as unoptimized casters. Otherwise the monk will feel useless or be told outright to be something else.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I don't know why people always complain about the monks SR. When they get it, a same level caster with Greater Spell Pen would still need to roll a 7 to beat their SR, which means that 30% of the time, they don't even have to make a saving though.

Need to roll a 6 or higher, actually. Remember, the caster level check still succeeds if it only equals the SR. 6+17 = 23

Sure, a mage who isn't tricked out for defeating spell resistance still fails 30% of the time. And succeeds 70% of the time.

Still better than “succeeds 100% of the time,” which is the case with no SR. Just consider it the equivalent of light fortification armor against spells. Sure, not very impressive at 13th level and above, but still comes in handy sometimes.

[Sliver]

Still better than “succeeds 100% of the time,” which is the case with no SR. Just consider it the equivalent of light fortification armor against spells. Sure, not very impressive at 13th level and above, but still comes in handy sometimes.

Except light fortification doesn't have the thing that it works against you when you try to get buffs or healing from other party members mid combat.

[Hackulator]

Just consider it the equivalent of light fortification armor against spells. Sure, not very impressive at 13th level and above, but still comes in handy sometimes.

Not impressive until you realize you ended a fight with 12 HP and the one crit or spell you prevented was the difference between life and death. Remember in D&D without wound penalites everything happens at the margin.

I will say the I usually significantly gimp casters in one major way, that being I restrict them mostly to spells in the PHB. When every book Wizards ever puts out has new spell options, obviously casters become OP. A spellcaster limited to PHB spells is still incredibly powerful and versatile, but doesn't have that "magic bullet" for EVERY situation.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Except light fortification doesn't have the thing that it works against you when you try to get buffs or healing from other party members mid combat.

Ah, yes indeed.

Not impressive until you realize you ended a fight with 12 HP and the one crit or spell you prevented was the difference between life and death. Remember in D&D without wound penalites everything happens at the margin.

I do believe I said it was still useful.

Anyway, at 13th level, you can afford to have at least moderate fortification. Hence light fortification not being so impressive.

I will say the I usually significantly gimp casters in one major way, that being I restrict them mostly to spells in the PHB. When every book Wizards ever puts out has new spell options, obviously casters become OP. A spellcaster limited to PHB spells is still incredibly powerful and versatile, but doesn't have that "magic bullet" for EVERY situation.

Actually, given the increased specialization in a lot of the splatbook spells, you wind up with a lot of “magic bullets” that only work for that one situation. The PHB spells are a lot more general purpose. You might have a better gimp if you restrict spells to splatbooks only.

[Shenanigans]

Monkish SR is a decent cookie; it doesn't too much, but it's occasionally useful.

I took the Exalted SR feat for my monk, and it makes it slightly more useful, as most of what we have faced since mid to high levels, is evil outsiders and casters.

It's those accursed neutrals that give me problems. ;) As Zapp Brannigan says "What makes a man turn neutral ... Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"