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    Default A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Okay on this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170472 I mentioned the idea of a game where the PCs were a unit of devils in the Blood War; playing actual Baatezu and going through the stages of promotion. Since it started to derail that thread I've decided to start a thread asking if anybody has any advice/ideas on how that would work.

    Also just a general interest check before I decide whether to actually start a recruitment thread.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    From the other thread originally, cut and pasted.

    Re: Game where you're devils in the bloodwar and advancing your forms and de-leveling, sounds potentially quite fun.

    A weak-sauce idea, I know, but you could start them off as fiendish versions of what they were in life, partially deleveled (say, they were higher level when they died but now they've only got, say 4-6 levels from the prior life) already to reflect their essence being cast off and repurposed, and then have them steadily turn into more and more devilish forms as their levels get burned to fuel the transformation further. And you'd avoid the problems of casters breaking the game because they'd never break the level 8-10ish cap where they really outpace the rest...until you were already fairly far in, prossibly all the way into the endgame.

    Depending upon the roleplayers of the group, could even have a steady loss of prior memories and experience which gave them their edge originally as they become more combat-capable and dependent on their current form for power...
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    One of my friends was kicking around an idea where the devils had been experimenting on the souls of guys who died with some levels beneath their belt, basically putting them into a form that served as a chassis for all those built up levels rather than wasting them by making them into the oozes (his ears perked up when I mentioned the savage species rituals), but having them basically have their souls mucked around with so that they'd think they were still alive rather than immediately try to desert and flee from the blood war...
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Hmm...

    Well the de-leveling I originally suggested was loss of levels you had gained in the most recent devil form. But the idea of past life memories resurfacing and/or being forgotten is also a good one.

    Maybe start you off as some type of least devil (Spine Devil or Legion Devil) with 3 levels have you upgrade to bearded devil with 2, and then Steel Devil with 1 (skipping the non-Baatezu since the reason they aren't Baatezu is that they're not part of the hierarchy, although whoever wrote the chart didn't get that memo).
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Yeah, that was sort of annoying. Besides, Imps have their own hierarchy, don't they? I mean, there's four different kinds of them, if you count the ones in the Fiend Folio. Also, since Erinyes are descendants of fallen Angels and have children of their own, and the fact that Fiendish Codex said other devils cannot advance into Erinyes form, shouldn't they not be a player option?
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    You're right erinyes would not be player options. Which ones would be would depend upon which ended up more important balance or flavor.

    Edit: Also might make each player choose a patron Lord of the 9 and get extra stuff based on that to further differentiate themselves.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2010-10-02 at 05:11 PM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Hmm...

    Well the de-leveling I originally suggested was loss of levels you had gained in the most recent devil form. But the idea of past life memories resurfacing and/or being forgotten is also a good one.

    Maybe start you off as some type of least devil (Spine Devil or Legion Devil) with 3 levels have you upgrade to bearded devil with 2, and then Steel Devil with 1 (skipping the non-Baatezu since the reason they aren't Baatezu is that they're not part of the hierarchy, although whoever wrote the chart didn't get that memo).
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Well unless I decide to skip a few stages, Orthons or osyluths would be the 6th stage. With harvester/pain devils as 4th, and amnizu as 5th, and Pit Fiends as 12th.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Consider me interested. Instead of deleveling, you could gestalt the devil to one side and the class to the other. The devil wouldn't advance until the proper ECl was reached for the next level, or some such.

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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Here's a list of Baatezu I found (I think they're all in 3.5e, not sure):

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    Advespa
    Amnizu
    Ayperobos
    Barbazu ("Bearded Devil")
    Brachina ("Pleasure Devil")
    Cornugon ("Horned Devil")
    Dogai ("Assassin Devil")
    Erinyes
    Excruciarch ("Pain Devil")
    Falxugon ("Harvester Devil")
    Gelugon ("Ice Devil")
    Ghargatula
    Hamatula ("Barbed Devil")
    Kocrachon
    Lemure
    Logokron
    Malebranche
    Merregon ("Legion Devil")
    Narzugon
    Nupperibo
    Orthon
    Osyluth ("Bone Devil")
    Paeliryon
    Pit Fiend
    Spinagon ("Spined Devil")
    Xerfilstyx

    This is just my suggestion, but I'd definitely remove the following from player characters: Nupperibos, Lemures (duh), Erinyes, Xerfilstyxes, and Brachinas.
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2010-10-02 at 05:20 PM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Advespa
    Ayperobos
    Ghargatula
    Kocrachon

    Those four are not in the FCII list, or at least not under those names.

    Other ones that wouldn't be appropriate are Malebranche (only available via demotion) and Pleasure Devils (only available via promotion of Erinyes).

    One question is should I have all the PCs always be the same kind of devil or the same rank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hat-Trick View Post
    Consider me interested. Instead of deleveling, you could gestalt the devil to one side and the class to the other. The devil wouldn't advance until the proper ECl was reached for the next level, or some such.
    The problem there is most devils lack ECL; and (the lesser problem) you end up playing the class more than the devil.
    Last edited by Zaydos; 2010-10-02 at 05:26 PM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Advespa
    Ayperobos
    Ghargatula
    Kocrachon

    Those four are not in the FCII list, or at least not under those names.

    Other ones that wouldn't be appropriate are Malebranche (only available via demotion) and Pleasure Devils (only available via promotion of Erinyes).

    One question is should I have all the PCs always be the same kind of devil or the same rank?
    Well, if it's possible, they should always be a devil more suited to their player class. For example, when the Barbarian's an orthon, you would want to have the wizard as........as.........

    Blast it. I can't think of any Devils who would benefit being a caster.

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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    I love the idea and I would play in a heartbeat, the problem I see is that it will really difficult to balance the party, as Devils have an strict power hierarchy, if any player wanted to be different from any other party member the would have to advance to the same kind of Devil.

    The other option I see is all playing OlescamoGorgonDantress Monster class but being resticted to devils... the problem is that I have only see the class for Pit-fiends, Cornugons, Kythons & Erynes...
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    One option would be CR as ECL... it's not the best, but it gives some measuring stick. Casters, though, are screwed.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Advespa
    Ayperobos
    Ghargatula
    Kocrachon

    Those four are not in the FCII list, or at least not under those names.
    Yeah, I wasn't sure if they were all updated or not. Ayperobos wouldn't make a good player character anyway, considering they're a bunch of creatures in a swarm. If you are interested, though, Ghargatula are dinodevils, and Kocrachon are torturer bugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Other ones that wouldn't be appropriate are Malebranche (only available via demotion) and Pleasure Devils (only available via promotion of Erinyes).
    Brachinas are Pleasure Devils. I agree with the Malebranche's shouldn't be player characters, but I don't think players should know that. You know, just to give them something to fear for failure.

    I'd say that if there are two or more devils that are equal in rank, let the players choose. Its fun to give 'em a little variety.

    EDIT: Oh, and Ghargatulas and Kocrachons are from Book of Vile Darkness, so it turns out that they were all updated to at least 3e, if not 3.5
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2010-10-02 at 05:40 PM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    I would be interesting to play with CR as ECL, it might work, since as a quick check to the SRD all devils have similar HD to their CR (usually one higher or lower)
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Yeah, the table had Ayperobos as Ayperobos swarm (and not listed as part of the hierarchy/as a baatezu), and misspelled Ghargatula. Kocrachon doesn't seem to be recognized by FCII though.

    And while CR as ECL will wreak havoc with what monsters can do in relation to PCs (devils have more tricks and such than PCs of that level) it will at least maintain a semblance of party balance.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    I'd make fun of the editors for that slip, but that is pretty hard to spell, and I've seen worse errors...

    As for the Kocrachon, that is pretty odd. Have the Pain Devils fully replaced them, then?

    EDIT: I doubt a swarm would have a place in the devil hierarchy, but I am pretty sure they have the Baatezu subtype in the entry.

    That is wierd, though. So, is the embryonic Ayperobos inside the wierd embryonic devil-sac thing be actual size?
    Last edited by LOTRfan; 2010-10-02 at 05:52 PM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    ^: Swarms seem more like they'd be used as shock troops to soften up enemies than anything else, really. Since they are hard to kill, depending upon the size of the critters making up a swarm anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    And while CR as ECL will wreak havoc with what monsters can do in relation to PCs (devils have more tricks and such than PCs of that level) it will at least maintain a semblance of party balance.
    Well, the alternative is going out and determining your own tiers for the various fiends you'll be using and that they can come into contact with based upon a personal calculus of their abilities.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-10-02 at 06:13 PM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Quote Originally Posted by LOTRfan View Post
    EDIT: I doubt a swarm would have a place in the devil hierarchy, but I am pretty sure they have the Baatezu subtype in the entry.

    That is wierd, though. So, is the embryonic Ayperobos inside the wierd embryonic devil-sac thing be actual size?
    They have the Baatezu subtype... yet... I blame fluff writers not bothering to check what Baatezu really were.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    One thing that might bear mentioning is the gear, I assume that not all devils are assumed to have NPC gear in their MM entry or do they? because as some of the fighter 20 vs wizard 13 Gear is a great deal of the power of many if not all characters
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    The CR as kind of ECL was for intra-party balance. Elite stats give +1 CR and gear can give +0 to 2 CR according to the MM.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    I see, how would that interact with the ECL as CR? for example one could play a Bone devil with gear in a party with an Ice devil without gear for example?
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Hmm, well balancing that would be an interesting thing to try. There's a second problem too, in the very nature of LE which says a gelugon can order an osyluth around.

    That's exactly why I started this instead of a recruitment thread to find out these kinks before hand.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    The way I see to side-step this problem is probably asking the players to play nicely and don't try to abuse their powers if they advance in hierarchy compared to other players. Ot having an NPC cornugo giving simle direct orders* that all the members of the party must abide.


    *More than orders, objective to leave the players a bit of freedom while working towards that objectives.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Or possibly keep everyone on the same level in the bureaucratic ladder, even if they aren't the same type of devil. Maybe the devils decided not to advance, but are too powerful to treat them as anything lower than the highest member in the group.

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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Hmm, well balancing that would be an interesting thing to try. There's a second problem too, in the very nature of LE which says a gelugon can order an osyluth around.

    That's exactly why I started this instead of a recruitment thread to find out these kinks before hand.
    I think this is self-regulating though. The players that attempt to abuse this sort of thing may very well find themselves the low man on the totem pole sooner than they might think, and they should all be aware of this...
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    I think if I did this I'd have to keep everybody on the same hierarchy ranking; the problem there being that only 1 or 2 devils exist for each level.

    So beyond gear, and ability score array; what else could I give them to increase diversity while maintaining balance?

    I'm thinking 1 or 2 class levels, and maybe allowing a gelugon/wizard 1 to have better casting than a 1st level wizard (to make spellcasters still somewhat viable), maybe modifying it to be similar to martial initiators (not identical) or how the monster classes thread did for some of the classes like Illithid.

    Also maybe another ability based upon home layer/diabolic patron. A devil serving Mephistopholes might get the ability to call hellfire 1/day and one serving Levistus might get improved resistance to cold and immunity to the effects of the river Styx.
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Well, there's always restructuring the hierarchy somewhat. Maybe "advanced" versions of certain devils exist that are higher in the hierarchy than normal examples of their type?
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    Well in keeping with the diabolic world view even the best gelugon is below a cornugon (which is weird, since 2e it was the other way around), but maybe a 1 tier of flexibility might be allowed since sometimes devils do refuse promotion to keep the skills and abilities they have learned.

    Also how does the sound of your diabolic patron giving you certain extra abilities sound?
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    Default Re: A Devil Campaign, Ideas and Interest Check

    I like the idea, and tying it to the patron is great, i thinking that if your patron is Bel you would probably recieve IDK an stance or manouber? (I recall seeing one diabolic discipline somewhere in the forum)
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