Darkfire and Ring of Mystic Fire

[Fizban]

Darkfire is a Cleric only spell in the Spell Compendium that lets you throw fire for the duration of the spell, basically higher level Produce Flame. I'm looking for ways to optimize it, and here's what I've got for metamagic: Searing Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Blistering Spell, Persistant Spell, Divine Metamagic, and Spell Thesis. I'm wondering if the thesis reduces the cost of Divine Metamagic, but I don't think it does. While DMM: Persist is an obvious way to go, and is doable by the time you get the spell, I rather like going for Searing, Thesis, and DMM: Maximize at 6th, just for shock value.

That stuff's all pretty basic, and the real reason for the thread is the Ring of Mystic Fire from the Magic Item Compendium. It has several charges per day and lets you spend them to increase the damage of your fire spells. It's workings are obvious with an instantaneous spell, but how does it work with a duration spell?, how does it work with a duration spell requires active use like Flame Blade or Darkfire?, and how does it work with metamagic?

The wording on the ring is "grants a bonus to the amount of damage you deal with the next fire spell you cast before the end of your turn. (If the fire spell doesn't normally deal damage, this expenditure has no effect)." Either Darkfire deals damage so it should be eligible for the bonus damage, or Darkfire deals no damage on it's own because it merely creates an effect (that then deals damage defined by the spell's parameters). Maximize Spell has been used with other duration spells (I'm sure I've seen Maximized Walls of Fire and the like even if they aren't great) and says "all variable effects"- if it works on stuff like Wall of Fire then that implies that even if the damage isn't dealt immediately, damage dealt by the created effect of wall or blade counts as damage dealt by the spell and is maximized. If you can maximize the effect then you should be able to add "a bonus to the amount of damage you deal" to the effect and use the ring on Darkfire.

There's what reasoning I can put together, but obviously I want it to work so I'm a biased source. While I think I've got an argument to get the ring to work on the spell, I still have no idea what happens if you use the ring on a Maximized and/or Empowered Darkfire. How much damage can we make this spell do? I think the playground can find me an answer I like

[Fizban]

Normally I wouldn't bump after less than 12 hours, but with only 60 views I think it's more likely I posted at a bad time than there being no interest (threads are weird that way).

[arguskos]

Ok, I'm hardly a RAW-sage, but looking at it, I think this is how it was intended to function:

-Maximize/Empower Spell work normally on Darkfire. Since the damage of Darkfire is listed in the spell description, and those feats work on all variables in the spell, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I mean, Darkfire is still active until the duration ends.

-The Ring of Mystic Fire is similar. I'd think that if you use it and then cast Darkfire, Darkfire gains a +xd6 to damage (charge-dependent) on each attack. It doesn't say the next time you deal fire damage with a spell (which would make it so the first time you use Darkfire to deal damage, the +xd6 is expended), but the entire next spell gains that +xd6 to damage. Makes sense to me. And, given how bad Darkfire is, I'm ok with this reading of it.

-Using the Ring of Mystic Fire on an Empowered/Maximized Darkfire is fuzzier. Personally, I would rule that the feat happens first then the ring. That's just my balance consideration though. I *think* there are effect stacking precedents out there somewhere, I just don't know where. *casts summon Curmudgeon*

[Cieyrin]

Ok, I'm hardly a RAW-sage, but looking at it, I think this is how it was intended to function:

-Maximize/Empower Spell work normally on Darkfire. Since the damage of Darkfire is listed in the spell description, and those feats work on all variables in the spell, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I mean, Darkfire is still active until the duration ends.

-The Ring of Mystic Fire is similar. I'd think that if you use it and then cast Darkfire, Darkfire gains a +xd6 to damage (charge-dependent) on each attack. It doesn't say the next time you deal fire damage with a spell (which would make it so the first time you use Darkfire to deal damage, the +xd6 is expended), but the entire next spell gains that +xd6 to damage. Makes sense to me. And, given how bad Darkfire is, I'm ok with this reading of it.

-Using the Ring of Mystic Fire on an Empowered/Maximized Darkfire is fuzzier. Personally, I would rule that the feat happens first then the ring. That's just my balance consideration though. I *think* there are effect stacking precedents out there somewhere, I just don't know where. *casts summon Curmudgeon*

I agree with this analysis, though I'm fuzzy on what the last point is meaning, whether the bonus damage from the Ring is changed or not. I'm of the opinion that the ring's bonus damage should be treated separately from the rest of the spell, so Darkfire's normal damage is maximized/empowered/whatever and the Mystic Fire damage is rolled as normal.

[arguskos]

I agree with this analysis, though I'm fuzzy on what the last point is meaning, whether the bonus damage from the Ring is changed or not. I'm of the opinion that the ring's bonus damage should be treated separately from the rest of the spell, so Darkfire's normal damage is maximized/empowered/whatever and the Mystic Fire damage is rolled as normal.

Yeah, that was my meaning and how I think it works anyways. But, I don't know the actual effect stacking rules well enough to say definitively. Thus, the Curmudgeon summons.

[Fizban]

I'm inclined to agree with you guys on the meta/ring stacking, since my argument for why the ring works compares it to a metamagic feat. So since empower and maximize don't stack, it wouldn't stack with the ring. If it somehow changed the actual damage of the spell it might work, but bonus damage isn't multplied on crits so it probably shouldn't be maximized either.

[Gavinfoxx]

You'll need Divine Metamagic for EACH and every metamagic feat that you want to apply DMM to...

[Diarmuid]

It's also possible to interpret that the bonus damage from the ring only would occur on the first iteration of damage from Darkfire, much like how Augment Healing effects the Vigor line of spells.