Assassin or Spymaster?

[Scarey Nerd]

I'm really stuck, and I can't decide between these two PrCs for my character...

Spoiler

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Pox, the Changeling Rogue, a master of disguise, trickery, murder, and other such nastiness. He is a Becomer Changeling, and relishes each new identity he can add to his repertoire. He has a photographic memory, and remembers each identity he assumes for future reference. He is a master of Bluff, Disguise and Diplomacy, and uses them to con, rob and murder people.

I can't decide if I want to take a PrC that lets me assassinate more effectively, or to further immerse myself in my disguises. I wouldn't need the Spymaster's "Cover identity" ability, since I already have the same basic thing without the bonuses, and with more identities, but in turn I wouldn't really use an Assassin's spells.

Help me, people in the playground, you're my only hope

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, the Assassin is not actually very good at assassinating people. So I'd go with Spymaster, who is stealthier and therefore better able to, you know, assassinate people.

Sure, he doesn't get spells, but... you have UMD as a class skill.

[Quietus]

Are you more interested in combat encounters or social? Assassins definitely win at the former, while spymaster will do better in the latter. Also, why wouldn't you use Assassin's spells? There's some very handy abilities in that list.

[Scarey Nerd]

Are you more interested in combat encounters or social? Assassins definitely win at the former, while spymaster will do better in the latter. Also, why wouldn't you use Assassin's spells? There's some very handy abilities in that list.

I'm more interested in the social aspects of the character, I think. As to spells, there are useful ones there but we have a Wizard and a Cleric in the party, and I can't see myself using them all that often.

[Yuki Akuma]

Are you more interested in combat encounters or social? Assassins definitely win at the former,

That isn't true. he has slightly more sneak attack and a special ability that requires him to do nothing for three rounds for a chance to kill someone with a ridiculously easy Fort DC to resist.

Big woop. The Assassin is not a good PrC.

[Coidzor]

Well, glibness is nice though waiting 7 levels for it is a bit bleck. But, there are better rogue-to-caster segues.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, glibness is nice though waiting 7 levels for it is a bit bleck. But, there are better rogue-to-caster segues.

UM freaking D.

The Rogue never needs spells if he can afford to buy scrolls and wands.

[Scarey Nerd]

UM freaking D.

The Rogue never needs spells if he can afford to buy scrolls and wands.

Money should never be a problem, since this guy is all about the money, or more importantly, the method of making money. One of my plans is to reenact The Emperor's New Clothes, purely to see my DM's reaction.

[Coidzor]

Something tells me that plan needs glibness.

...And 12 gods, I hope it's not with the Speaker of the Flame.

Or Tim CurryCardinal Richelieu, err.... that Cardinal Guy.

[Fizban]

The Assassin's spells aren't used for the same things as the party wizard, they're used for things that the game refuses to let you do without magic, at least if you have the Spell Compendium. Spell's like Sniper's Shot, Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Amorphous Form, Find the Gap, Spectral Weapon, Wraithstrike, Cursed Blade and Sniper's Eye, are all spells you can't get from the party caster. The ability to sneak attack at any range, make skill checks as free actions, bypass barriers, attack touch AC, stop your foe from healing to full with Heal, and make ranged death attacks are all worth it. Sure you can get most of those with UMD, but why not just be able to cast them yourself as well?

[Scarey Nerd]

The Assassin's spells aren't used for the same things as the party wizard, they're used for things that the game refuses to let you do without magic, at least if you have the Spell Compendium. Spell's like Sniper's Shot, Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Amorphous Form, Find the Gap, Spectral Weapon, Wraithstrike, Cursed Blade and Sniper's Eye, are all spells you can't get from the party caster. The ability to sneak attack at any range, make skill checks as free actions, bypass barriers, attack touch AC, stop your foe from healing to full with Heal, and make ranged death attacks are all worth it. Sure you can get most of those with UMD, but why not just be able to cast them yourself as well?

...What is this Spell Compendium that you speak of?

[Yuki Akuma]

The Assassin's spells aren't used for the same things as the party wizard, they're used for things that the game refuses to let you do without magic, at least if you have the Spell Compendium. Spell's like Sniper's Shot, Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Amorphous Form, Find the Gap, Spectral Weapon, Wraithstrike, Cursed Blade and Sniper's Eye, are all spells you can't get from the party caster. The ability to sneak attack at any range, make skill checks as free actions, bypass barriers, attack touch AC, stop your foe from healing to full with Heal, and make ranged death attacks are all worth it. Sure you can get most of those with UMD, but why not just be able to cast them yourself as well?

Because if you can get them from UMD you might as well get class features that don't suck ass.

...What is this Spell Compendium that you speak of?

A collection of all the non-core spells ever published up to the point of its release (although it's now outdated). Very easy to look for spells there, unless you want something from one of the books released after it.

[Glyde]

After having played an assassin extensively, I find that they're more suited to solo play, oddly enough. Throw in some swordsage for maneuverability and it's pretty fun. Things like Mortifying Attack make taking out a contingent of guards by yourself a little easier, and the spells help if you're in a low-magic setting. We did have a couple of house rules for making the DC on the death attack harder (I think we used dex instead of int for the DC, and the base was a little higher), as well as plugging in an Assassin's Dagger that could be modified easier than a regular one.

All-in-all it's your choice. If you're in a party, I'd suggest against it, because sitting around for three rounds and then almost-maybe killing one person isn't typically worth it, since in a party-environment you'd only get one chance to do that. The rest of the time should be doing something with a higher chance of success.

[The Glyphstone]

Assassin isn't a bad PrC as far as core material goes. It's still got UMD as a skill, advances Sneak Attack at the same rate Rogue does, has Hide In Plain Sight, and some mediocre spellcasting. As long as you never try to Death Attack (nothing in the class forces you to), it's a fair alternative to single-classing Rogue if you don't have a large splatbook access.

[true_shinken]

A collection of all the non-core spells ever published up to the point of its release (although it's now outdated). Very easy to look for spells there, unless you want something from one of the books released after it.

That's not really all non-core spells up until publishing. Some were left out.

[Scarey Nerd]

Assassin isn't a bad PrC as far as core material goes. It's still got UMD as a skill, advances Sneak Attack at the same rate Rogue does, has Hide In Plain Sight, and some mediocre spellcasting. As long as you never try to Death Attack (nothing in the class forces you to), it's a fair alternative to single-classing Rogue if you don't have a large splatbook access.

A fair point, I was disappointed with the SA progression of Spymaster, but I think I can live with that. HIPS is an excellent class feature, in my opinion, but it doesn't really make sense for my character, as he uses disguises rather than hiding.

[Greenish]

I'm really stuck, and I can't decide between these two PrCs for my character...

Spoiler

Show

Pox, the Changeling Rogue, a master of disguise, trickery, murder, and other such nastiness. He is a Becomer Changeling, and relishes each new identity he can add to his repertoire. He has a photographic memory, and remembers each identity he assumes for future reference. He is a master of Bluff, Disguise and Diplomacy, and uses them to con, rob and murder people.

I can't decide if I want to take a PrC that lets me assassinate more effectively, or to further immerse myself in my disguises. I wouldn't need the Spymaster's "Cover identity" ability, since I already have the same basic thing without the bonuses, and with more identities, but in turn I wouldn't really use an Assassin's spells.

Help me, people in the playground, you're my only hope

If you don't need what the PrCs offer, why not stay a rogue? Best skillpoints in game, the special abilities are pretty decent and so forth.

Alternatively, you could look into taking a level of wizard, then going Unseen Seer, which allows you to get a large selection of spells (even the lower level ones can be great as an addition), while giving 6+int/level skillpoints with a list that has what you need. Also progresses Sneak Attack some.

[The Glyphstone]

A fair point, I was disappointed with the SA progression of Spymaster, but I think I can live with that. HIPS is an excellent class feature, in my opinion, but it doesn't really make sense for my character, as he uses disguises rather than hiding.

Sounds like you're better off with Spymaster then.

[Amphetryon]

May I suggest a single-level dip into Master of Masks? It would fit perfectly with the flavor, and get you proficiency with all exotic weapons.

[Scarey Nerd]

May I suggest a single-level dip into Master of Masks? It would fit perfectly with the flavor, and get you proficiency with all exotic weapons.

I entertained the notion of Master of Masks a while ago, but I'm not comfortable with the idea of covering my face with a mask, as the character changes his face for his disguises, and covering it up would feel wrong to him. It is a good PrC though, and I might well make a similar character one day that uses it.

[dgnslyr]

Money should never be a problem, since this guy is all about the money, or more importantly, the method of making money. One of my plans is to reenact The Emperor's New Clothes, purely to see my DM's reaction.

Except in DnD, you can actually be telling the truth when presenting him his fabulous new clothes! Give the guy invisible clothes (I think there's a metamagic that makes conjurations invisible) and True Seeing. Watch as he thinks he's wearing a set of fine garments when everybody thinks he's naked. Add the same stipulation of "dumb people can't see it," except without insulting the emperor.
???
Profit

[Sliver]

Add the same stipulation of "dumb people can't see it," except without insulting the emperor.

"So most of my citizens will see me naked? Guards, off with his head."

[Kaeso]

Assassin isn't a bad PrC as far as core material goes. It's still got UMD as a skill, advances Sneak Attack at the same rate Rogue does, has Hide In Plain Sight, and some mediocre spellcasting. As long as you never try to Death Attack (nothing in the class forces you to), it's a fair alternative to single-classing Rogue if you don't have a large splatbook access.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but why does everybody claim death attack is a bad thing to do? If the assassin can gain the first move in combat without being suspected of being a foe, he could take out one of the enemies with a single blow. It's like a finger of death but without wasting a spell slot to do so.

[Greenish]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but why does everybody claim death attack is a bad thing to do?

It's so very situational. Sure, if you somehow can linger around the enemy for three rounds before the battle starts, it costs you nothing to give it a shot, but the save DC is low, and it's not usable in combat.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but why does everybody claim death attack is a bad thing to do? If the assassin can gain the first move in combat without being suspected of being a foe, he could take out one of the enemies with a single blow. It's like a finger of death but without wasting a spell slot to do so.

Because in those three rounds you'd be able to kill your target with flanking TWF sneak attacks anyway.

[shadow_archmagi]

"So most of my citizens will see me naked? Guards, off with his head."

Emperor: So I-

Boy: Aieeeeee

Emperor: What's that? You don't LIKE seeing my flab, or my crotch!? Maybe you should have STAYED IN SCHOOL AND SMARTENED UP

[PId6]

That isn't true. he has slightly more sneak attack and a special ability that requires him to do nothing for three rounds for a chance to kill someone with a ridiculously easy Fort DC to resist.

Big woop. The Assassin is not a good PrC.

When looking at the assassin class, just ignore all mention of Death Attack and move on. That ability is a terrible waste of space, but the class is overall pretty decent. It gets full Sneak Attack starting at 1st level so you'll actually be ahead one level if you stop at an odd level. The spellcasting is actually pretty great if you allow Spell Compendium, and it's much cheaper than relying on UMD (and you can still use UMD for useful spells from other classes without needing it for basic ones like Invisibility or Wraithstrike). Finally, Su Hide in Plain Sight is a very nice "capstone" for the class, and the Uncanny Dodges do let you trade the rogue abilities away for ACFs.

Compared to straight rogue, you lose out on some skill points (regrettable), and a few special abilities (useful, but not necessary). It's a decent trade-off IMO, and the class overall is much better than most people give it credit for.

[true_shinken]

Compared to straight rogue, you lose out on some skill points (regrettable), and a few special abilities (useful, but not necessary). It's a decent trade-off IMO, and the class overall is much better than most people give it credit for.

Well done, sir. I agree.

[Quirp]

Have you looked at the mountebank in complete scoundrel?
It seems to mix sneak attack with some cover identities and improves your bluff skill at first level.

[Quietus]

That isn't true. he has slightly more sneak attack and a special ability that requires him to do nothing for three rounds for a chance to kill someone with a ridiculously easy Fort DC to resist.

Big woop. The Assassin is not a good PrC.

As pointed out, it can grab a few very nice things - the full sneak attack and a handy list of spells means you aren't relying on other people to cast spells on your behalf. Grab a couple you're likely to want frequently, like Wraithstrike and Greater Invisibility, and you'll do alright with that. Death Attack's "three rounds" deal does kinda suck, but where are you getting "low save DC" from? Assuming someone enters Assassin at 6th, by 15 they're pushing a save equal to casting a 10th level Death spell, albeit with a slightly lower stat mod. And if the DM in question gives plenty of opportunity to use it, then Ability Focus pushes that DC up to that of a 12th level spell. The DC ISN'T terribly low.. although it DOES get shafted in being a fort save. But for assassinating the types of people you'd WANT to assassinate, namely casters (obviously not super paranoid crazy MMM types, but those can't be the benchmark for obvious reasons) and other sneaky types you don't want catching up to you, it does just fine. Just don't target outsiders or dragons with it and you'll be alright.

The Assassin may not be the GREATEST prestige class out there, but it *is* a solid one, if you're reasonable about how you go about using it. Death Attack is a side feature, IMO, not a primary one.