Evening out roleplaying

[WarKitty]

I have a rather interesting dilemma. We have a very RP-heavy group. In particular there's two players that are extremely good at roleplaying. Both are playing very loud, outspoken characters that always seem to have something to do in the situation. It's great, and no one wants to say "don't roleplay so much" or anything. The issue is that, well, a couple of players have expressed feelings of being upstaged. Particularly since we just brought in two new characters (both replacements for ones that died or left) that are better at their roles than the party member that is currently filling them.

I don't think any of us want to say "don't roleplay so much, or don't roleplay a determined character." At the same time...well it feels like we're sort of side characters now. I know I and one other girl feel upstaged; neither of us have particularly outspoken characters and neither of us are playing the type to just charge right in.

[Snake-Aes]

Well, you don't really have many options. Go to the guys and say "Chill a little", then say "We should give more screen time for the other guys", and then make it happen. Trying to undermine the problem has big chances of leading into the divas thinking they are being cheated out instead of just taking one for the team.

[Hackulator]

Are your players mature and already friends with one another? If so, tell the people who feel upstaged to yell at the other people in character if they are pushing them out of the way in situations where the new players would be the optimal. Its best for things like that to be settled between players in my opinion. However, if they don't really know each other and you're worried about IC conflict causing OOC conflict, then take the loud players aside and talk to them. If you're a good roleplayer, but you're roleplaying a character who makes the game less fun for other people, you're no less abusive than a person who is good with systems and makes some character that ruins every combat by 1 shotting it.

[WarKitty]

I'm definitely thinking we'd resolve this OOC and not IC. I'm just not sure how to approach it without saying "Don't roleplay a loud character" because I know those are the types of characters they find fun. We argue IC all the time, but neither of them are the type IC that would listen to anyone.

[Tukka]

Maybe ask if they can roleplay in such a way as to draw your characters more deeply into the story and situations, and perhaps ask the GM to consider doing the same with his NPCs and scenarios.

Roleplaying works best when everyone plays off each other a bit anyway, right?

[arguskos]

Yeah, this just needs to be discussed. Say to the dudes "hey guys, we're super glad you're having a great time, but you're also accidentally upstaging some of the other players. Would you mind maybe toning it down a little, so we can all have fun?" If they're decent people, they'll probably go "Hey, yeah, sorry about that. Sure thing!"

Asking someone to not be in the center of the spotlight all the time isn't a crime, and it's entirely likely they don't realize OOC that you feel slighted.

[Katana_Geldar]

Get some story or sidequest that directly involves those player's characters and not the outspoken ones.

[WarKitty]

Get some story or sidequest that directly involves those player's characters and not the outspoken ones.

Believe it or not we are already on one of those. Not helping.

[Katana_Geldar]

Then tell the loud players that this is NOT their turn in the spotlight and they should not monopolise it.

[WarKitty]

Yeah...I just hate saying it. The one guy's main character trait is that he's a real kick-in-the-door-and-charge type. I feel like it would be against his character to hang back, and I don't want to ask that...but I don't like how it ends up with him starting encounters and basically making the strategists helpless.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't think you will find a compromise that makes you not go and tell him and, at the same time, keep him from doing his stuff too much. Just go and tell, Bring the other arbiter types of your group together to ask.

[WarKitty]

Ok clarification: I'm quite willing to talk to them. I would however like some suggestions on how to approach it, and specifically how to keep playing a loud, kick-in-the-door character without upstaging other characters.

[Snake-Aes]

Without dropping the characterization? some in-character conflict would be a good way to explain. Getting the odd elbow to the ribs could work (and the experience of doing that is also play-worthy). Another alternative is to make such punishment come from the consequence of acting rashly and having him mature from there.

On how to talk to the guys... I don't know if I can say something less than direct: "I/We feel that you are overshadowing the rest of the group with your character's attitude." A talk from there should work itself out. (The tone and the general "aura" while the talk is pulled is a huge factor in how they'll react, second only to their own personalities.)

[Hackulator]

It sounds to me like you are dealing with an abusive player here. If their character refuse to listen to the other characters or let them have a say what is going on, that's not good roleplaying, its just being a pain. Tell them this, and explain that a character for whom proper roleplaying makes the game not fun for other players needs to be changed. If they refuse to moderate their behavior, speak to the other players and use the following plan:

Strategists say "we are going to work on a plan, give us a minute." Kick in the door guys says "I don't care about what you want" and kicks in the door. Strategy guys sit back and watch him die as he attacks an encounter tuned for the entire party.

[Jornophelanthas]

It sounds to me like you are dealing with an abusive player here. If their character refuse to listen to the other characters or let them have a say what is going on, that's not good roleplaying, its just being a pain. Tell them this, and explain that a character for whom proper roleplaying makes the game not fun for other players needs to be changed. If they refuse to moderate their behavior, speak to the other players and use the following plan:

Strategists say "we are going to work on a plan, give us a minute." Kick in the door guys says "I don't care about what you want" and kicks in the door. Strategy guys sit back and watch him die as he attacks an encounter tuned for the entire party.

From the OP's post, I don't think this is the case. Rather, it sounds like a few players who are so enthusiastic about roleplaying that they don't notice that they are overshadowing everybody else.

All that's needed is someone else saying politely that it's another character's turn now. If they play nice, then they'll oblige, whether their characters are extravert "in your face" types or not.

If they refuse and are rude about it, then either they're abusive players as described above, or the person asking them to sit back on this one wasn't being polite.

EDIT:
A suggestion on how to bring up the subject would be something like: "Hold on, I think this situation is better suited for [Player X], so maybe it would be fair to let him/her have his/her turn to shine." As an out-of-character statement.
Note that I don't roleplay in the English language, so I could get the level of subtlety wrong here.

[valadil]

Oy. I used to be friends with a guy who played that way. I came to the conclusion that I can't game with him anymore. It just wasn't worth it.

The problem wasn't just the dominant RP though. His personality made it hard to get around that problem. If I asked him to share the spotlight, he'd do all the talking for the encounter and then ask me if I wanted to add anything else he forgot. If I engaged his character one on one, I'd get completely ignored or talked over. If this is the sort of behavior you deal with, I advise not playing with them.

On the other hand, a more reasonable person should try and let other people in the spotlight. The best roleplayers I've ever seen have been the ones who will become the center of attention, and then drag other players (kicking and screaming if necessary) into the same scene.

[742]

in the future make anyone who wants to play a leeroy get approval from the other players?

then i guess exploding doors and encounters that are easy to run from but simply can not be conquered with a flat charge? even better if theyre static (like a room full of golems or something) so the character would have to learn a lesson, and the player would have a good IC excuse to tone it down a bit in whichever direction they wanted. along with a brief chat about spotlight hogging of course.

so the character can still *want* to kick in the door, but the rogue can still say "shhhh! if you keep talking the dragon might wake up! that would be bad!"

[Another_Poet]

Politely voice your concerns and then ask them to read the "Pass the Ball" article.

What's even better than having strong roleplayers shut up for a while? Having strong roleplayers actively throwing you roleplay openings, bringing you into their reindeer games.

[Savannah]

In terms of advice for how to talk to them, I'd probably say just about what you said in the OP. Throw in some compliments and get them to figure out the solution for you :

"Hey, guys, I know you're really great at roleplaying, and I really like playing with you, so I've been agonizing over how to bring this up with you. I don't want to discourage you from roleplaying or ask you to play a character you don't like, but unfortunately because you're playing naturally loud kick-in-the-door characters I've been feeling a little upstaged. [insert examples] Like I said, I really like your roleplaying, so I was wondering if you have any ideas for how to include my character a bit more, as s/he's not as outgoing as your characters and I'm feeling like I'm not contributing as much because of it."

[the humanity]

Ok clarification: I'm quite willing to talk to them. I would however like some suggestions on how to approach it, and specifically how to keep playing a loud, kick-in-the-door character without upstaging other characters.

________ saw you doing ___________, which is embarrassing/secret. ___________ blackmails you every time you get on his nerves with a signal.

ask the player and DM if something like that would be ok.

[WarKitty]

Ok, will talk to the group. I'm mostly annoyed because:

(A) I specified at the beginning that my druid was not going to be a blaster (PF game so wildshape isn't that great with my sucky physical stats). My last character was a blaster and I'm bored with it.

(B) I have control spells but none of the party particularly seems to want to work with them. Our melee wants to charge straight ahead and not work with stuff like entangle and fog cloud.

(C) We just got a new buffer/healer cleric introduced, which is what I had been doing (and was enjoying very much). She's much better at the job than I am.

So I really have no idea what to do with my character anymore.

[Talon Sky]

1) Take levels in wizard or reroll a wizard.
2) Threaten to write Explosive Runes on their character's underwear anytime they cut you out of the roleplaying.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

[WarKitty]

1) Take levels in wizard or reroll a wizard.
2) Threaten to write Explosive Runes on their character's underwear anytime they cut you out of the roleplaying.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

Oh come now, if I wanted to mess them up I have no need to reroll. I'm still a Tier 1 full caster, plus I know every druid spell in the universe by virtue of being a divine caster. Hit them with Poison+Plague Carrier while they're asleep. Then since it's PF, summon a few stirges to finish draining their constitution.

[Psyx]

Particularly since we just brought in two new characters (both replacements for ones that died or left) that are better at their roles than the party member that is currently filling them.

Around our table, it's considered to be very bad etiquette to create a character that 'steals' an existing character's niche. Especially if it's better. But that may just be us.

Should existing characters step aside and let the 'niche-takers' take over? I'd personally say 'no'. It doesn't matter that you are 'better' though numbers: Those players would ALSO feel overshadowed if they stepped aside and you took over. And they were there first.

If you don't want to feel overshadowed, it's best to think of something that isn't already being done, and to do that. This is always the best way to create characters, in my mind.

Everyone likes to have a role at the table that is unique, and trampling on toes due to 'territorial' disputes never sits well with the player.



Additionally: Sometimes you take your turn at the helm, other times you take a turn sitting at the back.

I'm a very 'alpha male' and cerebral person. People look to me to lead and do the talking in many situations, and to make the final choice as to what plan we elect to follow. I do enjoy it, but sometimes I have to deliberately play a more reserved character for the duration of the game and let someone else take a 'turn'. There's another guy I roleplay with who is similar, and we have to almost take it in turns, as if we both play vocal, pushy characters there is always a huge personality clash and we both end up having no fun.

If somebody dominates EVERY game that they play in, then it's an issue. It needs to even out.

I'd be tempted to just play a more reserved character, and then make sure that I'm more vocal next game, and let the others know OOC why I'm doing it that way. Most players are reasonable about it. Some do hog the limelight a bit too much, but if you explain that it's everyone's game, not just theirs, they are generally fine with it.

Another good approach would be to talk to them and tell them that they're really helping you 'get into' roleplaying more, but you'd like to be able to take the opportunity to do so more. Pose it as a positive thing.

(B) I have control spells but none of the party particularly seems to want to work with them. Our melee wants to charge straight ahead and not work with stuff like entangle and fog cloud.

(C) We just got a new buffer/healer cleric introduced, which is what I had been doing (and was enjoying very much). She's much better at the job than I am.

B) No, because people often don't want to wait around working 'for' someone constantly. I don't like being nagged about where to stand, either because it makes me feel like a summoned monster. I'd recommend improved initiative to get your control spells in first.

C) She's treading on your toes. Bad etiquette.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah...I just hate saying it. The one guy's main character trait is that he's a real kick-in-the-door-and-charge type. I feel like it would be against his character to hang back, and I don't want to ask that...but I don't like how it ends up with him starting encounters and basically making the strategists helpless.

Set up situations where just kicking in the door is a really, really bad idea. And, if they blindly charge in despite it clearly being dangerous, well...it's gonna hurt.

This is a conflict that can be very IC, so I do like resolving them IC whenever possible. If you've got strategists who want some spotlight time, give them encounters where some preplanning is not only helpful, but clearly necessary. Heists are one such type.

[WarKitty]

So I sent a message on our group FB thread:

Spoiler

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In all seriousness:

How are we going to work out spellcasting so everyone is doing something? I explicitly do not want Fionntan to be a blaster character. That's what Kellen was and I'm bored with it. She's not going to be the healer/buffer anymore because we have Tammy now. And our control spells aren't working the way we have things going now.

We're doing great as far as roleplaying but I feel like we could do a bit more work to make sure everyone gets a fair chance at contributing, and so we're working together and not getting in each other's way.

Our DM's reply:

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I disagree that Fionntan has lost her role. She has always been a support caster- this has not changed. Her buffs/healing may not be as strong as Tammy's (our cleric), but it is about versatility. Fionntan arguably has better debuff spells (which are stronger now that the party has one less melee character, Irateus), more offensive spells (even if you are not a blaster, druids still have other offensive capabilities... like summons), and more melee capabilities with Wild Shape and a pet wolf...

Fionntan is contributing to the team, I do not see how that changed with the addition of a Cleric.

Was I just not clear or did he miss the point? I wasn't talking about just me, I've heard complaints from 2 other players. And I specifically said my control spells aren't working the way our party is now.

[Tyndmyr]

Respond, saying that a jack of all trades and a dedicated buffer are not the same roles at all.

Make sure to point out that it isn't about being able to contribute, it's about your role being displaced. He seems to have missed that.

[Morph Bark]

Was I just not clear or did he miss the point? I wasn't talking about just me, I've heard complaints from 2 other players. And I specifically said my control spells aren't working the way our party is now.

You dedicated more space to your other point surrounding your character and put it up first. If you want a point addressed, you should focus on that first and foremost and show that you're serious about it.


...or did I miss your point too?

[Moogleking]

How about a personal side quest/ heavily related main quest? Make the characters brother into a villain, return to their home village to find it destroyed. Give them some easy RPing oppurtunities.

[WarKitty]

How about a personal side quest/ heavily related main quest? Make the characters brother into a villain, return to their home village to find it destroyed. Give them some easy RPing oppurtunities.

Would work if I was the DM. Personally, it's not that I'm not roleplaying, it's that one of the other characters is already running ahead to attack or talk (one of the problem characters is a master diplomancer) while my character is trying to gather information and formulate a plan.