Help me spend my Archivist WBL and suggest some spell selections.

[Il_Vec]

Edit: I started this thread asking for build advice. Right now I'm pretty set with Archivist. I'd like suggestions as to where to spend my WBL, and about spells selection.



My friend and fellow poster Fawst is going to start a new Eberron campaign in a few weeks. At first, I figured I wanted to try a swift skirmisher build. Then the other players started rolling their sheets and, well...
Level 4 characters, 32 point buy(Hard-capped that even with racial modifiers, max atribute is 18), we all know the DM likes clerics and at least one of the main antagonists will be a Bone Knight. The DM has house-ruled ToB manuevers into all classes that weren't full casters. The group consists currently of:

Human Dragon Shaman(Copper or Gold)
Changeling Ranger (going into warshaper)
Human Swordsage (focuses in Stone Dragon and Shadow Hand)
Dwarf Fighter (going into Dwarven Defender. He looked into Deepstone sentinel and still preferred DD)

According to the DM, allowed books are: All completes, All races of, PHBII, XPH Spell compendium, all eberron books, Sandstorm, frostburn, stormwrack, libris mortis.

I am lost as to what to play, because of the lack of any casters or specialized skillmonkeys.
The ideas I had were: swift skirmisher, psion, knight phantom or familiar-fu hexblade. I realize none of them covers the needs of the party.

We are most likely to play from level 4 to 12.

What do you think?

[Eldariel]

*shrug* Archivist would probably be what you want. Basically everyone else will be going into melee so you covering arcane and divine casting (particularly divine buffing and arcane battlefield control) seems rather key. It's also key to have someone capable of casting Restoration, Revivify and Heal (eventually, that is) in the party.

Other option would be Cloistered Cleric taking Domains to do Wizardly stuff; that'd also allow you to cover the trapfinding portion of the deal. But you'd be worse at Wizardly casting. Still, if you aren't horribly opposed to spellcasting I'd go Cloistered Cleric or Archivist. And if you wanna fight too, I'd go DMM: Persist Cloistered Cleric or Archivist and fight for real.


Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 with some Arcane Disciple-trickery could also work, if a bit worse. But yeah, Cloistered Cleric is probably the easiest way to cover all the things you're lacking. Note that Ranger can also do skillmonkery and cover trapfinding and tracking. If you go CC, you could do that too.

[Telonius]

Skillmonkey plus specialized caster? Two things come to mind, Beguiler and Artificer. Both get trapfinding, both have their methods of spellcasting. Artificer has the option of crafting Homunculi that can cover for other party lacks. Since you're going to be playing in Eberron, Artificer might be good for you. Parties generally love an Artificer, too, since he can craft items on the cheap.

[Ruinix]

Skillmonkey plus specialized caster? Two things come to mind, Beguiler and Artificer. Both get trapfinding, both have their methods of spellcasting. Artificer has the option of crafting Homunculi that can cover for other party lacks. Since you're going to be playing in Eberron, Artificer might be good for you. Parties generally love an Artificer, too, since he can craft items on the cheap.

plus factotum + artificer win win.

[Keld Denar]

Bard! BARD! BARD!

What do you add to a party of meleers? A melee force multiplier!

5 PCs * +5 (or greater) Inspire Courage = MOAR DAMAGE!

[Eldariel]

Bard! BARD! BARD!

What do you add to a party of meleers? A melee force multiplier!

5 PCs * +5 (or greater) Inspire Courage = MOAR DAMAGE!

I'd second this, but so far from Sublime Chord it'll take a while for the casting to pick up and the party could really use a controller caster (long duration buffs wouldn't hurt either)

[Ruinix]

Bard! BARD! BARD!

What do you add to a party of meleers? A melee force multiplier!

5 PCs * +5 (or greater) Inspire Courage = MOAR DAMAGE!

I'd second this, but so far from Sublime Chord it'll take a while for the casting to pick up and the party could really use a controller caster (long duration buffs wouldn't hurt either)

seconded and add DOOMSPEACK!!! MOAR the enemy fail (-10 to all rolls ) to do anything XD

add from Races of Stone Metamagic Song, spend bardic music for negate the metamagic cost, so HELLO PERSIST SPELL

[Il_Vec]

I like the Archivist and Artificer sugestions...
Bard seems OK, but I feel like it's stepping on the Dragon Shaman's territory.

Regarding the Archivist: I feel that it might be the best way to go, but maybe the magic-mart will not be at our disposal, meaning it might be hard to find divine scrolls of arcane spells... Do you have any suggestions to get around that?

I could use a wizard into unseen seer, using Martial Stance(Assassin Stance) to bypass the rogue dip.

[Person_Man]

Have you looked at the Artificer?

[Aharon]

I agree that the group probably would be better of with a controller caster, but Artificer is
a) very setting appropriate
and
b) lots of fun to play

If you decide to do that, you could take care of the buffing part. Control is possible, but rather costly using items, I guess (of course, this depends on how much cost reduction your DM is willing to deal with). You could up the Spell DCs via Enhance Item Creation from the ELH.

[Eldariel]

Regarding the Archivist: I feel that it might be the best way to go, but maybe the magic-mart will not be at our disposal, meaning it might be hard to find divine scrolls of arcane spells... Do you have any suggestions to get around that?

You are fine with just divine scrolls of divine versions of arcane spells; Adepts (very common) have Web, Cleric domains contain a ton of stuff, Druids give you Entangle (superior lvl 1 control spell), etc. As you have Scribe Scroll, you just need the other caster to provide the spell and you can make the scroll yourself.

To truly get arcane spells as divine scrolls, something like Alternate Source Spell would be needed. No need to go that far though; you get all you need from Domains & the big divine classes.


You also are Int-based and can pick up Trapfinding through Planar Touchstone [PlH]: Catalogues of Enlightenment so you should be just fine with regards to that, though Archivist has trouble expanding his skill list in other directions too much and needs lots of Knowledges anyways. Still, they have at least Diplomacy and Gather Information in class so they can get something done.

EDIT: Except Archivist is in Heroes of Horror. Derp.

[Il_Vec]

After the suggestion, I have looked.
I like the class, but I feel that if there was an easy way to put wizard spells on the Archivist, it would be what I'm looking for.
But the Artificer is an excellent secont choice, being able to cast arcane and divine spells using UMD... Is there something I'm missing?
Edit:
Can an Archivist pick domain spells with the 2 spells he gets when going up a level?

[Petrocorus]

Your party need: a skill monkey, an arcane caster, a divine caster, a trap finder, and maybe a face (depending on the build of the shaman).
You actually need to be 3 or 4 party member on your own.

I see several builds that can fit this needs to some extends, but not completely.

• Factotum / Chameleon
  
  Very good as skill monkey, good face and abilities to do some casting.
  
  
• Straight Artificer
  
  Good skill monkey and the abilities to create magic item easily can cover the spell casting.
  
  
• Druid 4 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Hierophant
  
  You need precocious apprentice to qualify. i don't know if it can cover the trap finding, but the spell castings are very good and you have wild shape and companion familiar. A riding dog as companion can track. So ask the ranger to take the ACF from Dungeonscape that allow him to do the trapfingding.
  
  
• Beguiler 1 / Druid 4 / Arcane Hierophant
  
  Less good spell casting but better skill monkey and trap finding. You need versatile spellcaster to qualify. Able Learner would be good to.
  
  
• Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Unseen Seer 8
  
  Very good face, quite good spell casting, bardic music. With the Bardic Knack ACF, you cover most of the skill monkey. No trap finding or track, but you can be a good Urban Tracker. The Savage Bard variant can give you Survival as class skill.
  And at lvl 6, you take Leadership and cover the other need of the party with your cohort and followers.
  
  
• Cloistered Cleric 4 / Church Inquisitor 3 / Prestige paladin 3 / Contemplative 6
  
  A powerful Cleric build with skills and 4 Domains at lvl 5 , including Knowledge and Inquisition. You can take Spell and Trickery or War to cover other needs. Note that once you've got DMM: persist and Divine Power, you can outshine the other melee specialists of the party.
  
  
• Straight Archivist
  
  Already commented.
  

[Eldariel]

Can an Archivist pick domain spells with the 2 spells he gets when going up a level?

No, I don't think so. The wording speaks of Cleric spells and Domain spells aren't Cleric spells per ce, just Domain spells.

[Il_Vec]

I believe being from HoH won't be an issue, as it is a well-known class.
So far, it looks like a:

Human Archivist 4
Str 14
Con 14
Dex 10
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats: Knowledge Devotion, don't know(maybe power attack?), don't know.

Skills:
Concentration, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Knowledge(Arcana, Religion, Dungeoneering, Planes, Nature, Local) 7 ranks each

Prayerbook:
All level 0 cleric spells
Level 1:
Bless, Comprehend Languages, Cure light wounds, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Obscuring Mist, Sanctuary, Protection from Evil

Level 2:
Cure moderate wounds, Bull's Strenght, Augury, Hold Person

WBL: 5,400

What feats do you suggest, would you change any of these spells and what spells do you think I should buy to copy on my prayerbook? Is there any must-buy items I should know?

Thanks a lot for the help so far.

[Gavinfoxx]

Prayerbook:
All level 0 cleric spells
Level 1:
Bless, Comprehend Languages, Cure light wounds, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Obscuring Mist, Sanctuary, Protection from Evil
Level 2:
Cure moderate wounds, Bull's Strenght, Augury, Hold Person

Everyone know's an archivist's best LEVEL 1 healing spell is Cure Moderate Wounds! =D =D What's the point of being an archivist if you can't havae CMW at level 1 (it's in Runescarred Berserker I think, in Unapproachable East)??

Look here for a partial list of spells on the archivist class list:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...ions_of_spells

Of note for lvl1:
Magic Weapon, Wieldskill, Barkskin, Enlarge Person, Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, Entangle, Grease, Identify (cause, really... as a divine spell? free identify!), Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, Spider Climb, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil.

Archivists can make a LOT of money making lower than normal level divine scrolls or runes of things...

[Il_Vec]

Thanks for that link!

And the spells there are the Cleric spells the Archivist learns when levelling up. Spells from other lists must be learned from scrolls, so I need to take the WBL into account. If I buy a runescarred level 1 CMW scroll, I'll take CLW from the list obviously...

[Tukka]

Consider about joining the Eternal Library organization outlined in Complete Champion. It's a great thematic and mechanical fit for the archivist.

Lore of the Gods, also in Complete Champion, is a great spell for archivists.

You might want to see if the DM will let you take a "Collegiate Archivist" version of the "Collegiate Wizard" feat from Complete Arcane to grab a few more spells.

Regarding tricks to get spells available at a lower level, my own personal views:

Spoiler

Show

I don't like to get too cheesy by taking spells at lower spell levels. The page on scrolls at the SRD puts forward some guidelines for scroll availability that I generally like to adhere to when playing an archivist or DMing a game with one.

I also don't like to assume that all spells are readily available in scroll-form just because it appears on some obscure spell list, like the wu jen spell list, or the Abyss domain list (in a region where clerics of evil gods don't operate in the open).

I do like to suggest, however, that the DM might look at a few such spell lists and that he give a thought to planting such spells as loot in the form of scrolls, ancient tablets, etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

*snip*
Regarding tricks to get spells available at a lower level, my own personal views:

Spoiler

Show

I don't like to get too cheesy by taking spells at lower spell levels. The page on scrolls at the SRD puts forward some guidelines for scroll availability that I generally like to adhere to when playing an archivist or DMing a game with one.

I also don't like to assume that all spells are readily available in scroll-form just because it appears on some obscure spell list, like the wu jen spell list, or the Abyss domain list (in a region where clerics of evil gods don't operate in the open).

I do like to suggest, however, that the DM might look at a few such spell lists and that he give a thought to planting such spells as loot in the form of scrolls, ancient tablets, etc.

Well... figuring out what is 'common' for archivists could take a LOT of work. In fact, it could take an *entire theme game*. I wrote up a theme game / thought experiment / fanciful setting idea to tackle this question a while ago!

See? Basically, you could extrapolate the results from this sort of 'game' and then make an interesting setting where the Archivist has a very specific and particular spell list, and that is IT as far as spells are concerned, and Archivists are the "Wizards". It'd also be an interesting way yo say what sorts of items are common in that setting, which would be different than the normal list.... sorry, it was a pet project of mine!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9215448

[Petrocorus]

BTW, how is this possible for Archivist to get all wizard spell as divine spell?

[Eldariel]

BTW, how is this possible for Archivist to get all wizard spell as divine spell?

The important ones are available through Domains and such. But things such as Alternative Source Spell, Southern Magician and company allow arcane spells to be cast as divine ones and leads to some tricks there; allows divine scrolls of arcane spells too.