[3.5]Item CL- creating more powerful versions of items without paying more

[hamishspence]

I've been told that (according to DMG errata) if you create a more powerful version of an existing item (much higher CL)- you pay exactly the same cost.

Specifically- here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=22

Does this make sense- or does it seem like rules abuse?

The idea that you can buy a CL20 Hat of Anonymity for the same price as a standard CL7 one (or create your own without spending any more XP or gold) seems to me a bit cheesy- considering that the item is basically a Nondetection item with a little bonus extra- and Nondetection is much more powerful if your CR is higher.

[Duke of URL]

No, that's incorrect. The DMG price guidelines always assume the minimum caster levels. If an item is created at a higher caster level, it generally costs more. The creator determines the caster level of the item, which must be between the minimum caster level and his/her own caster level, and pays the gp/xp costs accordingly.

[hamishspence]

According to the other theory- it doesn't matter what the caster level of the item is- the price is fixed and you can have whatever caster level you want right up to your own maximum caster level without affecting the price.

This seems like a rather overgenerous reading of the DMG errata to me though.

[Duke of URL]

I would go beyond "overgenerous" and call it "intentionally misreading". All items that have effects based on caster level, where multiple strengths of the item are shown, have costs scaled by said caster level.

[Keld Denar]

Most things follow a pretty explicit formula. That is generally spell level * caster level * base factor.

A CL2 wand explicitly costs twice as much as a CL1 wand. I don't see anything in the wonderous item description that counters this.

[hamishspence]

It's not in the book- but in the errata:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Supposedly "the caster level is determined by the creator" means that when you create an item with a given price to create and a given CL, you can use your caster level instead of the normal one for all it's effects when you create it, without affecting the price.

Seems to me like a massive stretch though. If I was DMing and someone wanted to create a CL20 version of a normally CL 7 item (and CL made a huge difference to effectiveness) I'd expect them to pay extra for the extra effectiveness.

[Tyndmyr]

I see that the erratta says you may create whichever caster level you prefer.

I just don't see where it says it's free to do so.

[hamishspence]

It's an assumption based on the price of the item being provided- but the caster level not being fixed.

The line of reasoning seems to be "If item price is fixed- but caster level is dependant on caster- then you can have a higher CL item at the same price".

Seems like an overassumption though. If you're not using the listed CL, why expect that it will be the listed price?

[Tyndmyr]

Im on the same track with you. If you're not creating the item as listed, the costs may differ. There are a number of ways to modify items, and in *every* case where caster level is variable, adding more costs money.

It strikes me as requiring fairly selective to arrive at some interpolation based on "it doesnt SAY I can't do x", while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, it sounds like a bit of a streched assumption to think you can get an item of any CL with no change in price. Otherwise you'd have items out there forged by Red Wizard circles with a CL of 500 or something that would be the same price as one made by Joe Wizard in the tower down the street.

I mean, everything else already explicitly scales with CL...and again, there is nothing in the text you cited to disprove that.

[Reluctance]

The impression I got was that for items that made no mention of anything caster level related, you could make them more dispel-proof without changing the cost. if you wanted to make a +1 sword at CL 20, knock yourself out.

If you want to raise an item's CL for dispel resistance only - all other level-based variables staying the same as whatever's mentioned in the item description - knock yourself out. changing the effects changes the item, at which point you're making a custom item and should be using adjustments as per the guidelines.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, this has nothing to do with charged items like wands, which specifically say their price is based on caster level. Wondrous items have a listed price in their description, often with no allowance for variation. The item creation rules specifically spell out that when creating a magic item, the caster level of that item is based on the creator's caster level.

For example, the Speed weapon property normally has a CL 7. A Wizard 5 could meet the prerequisites and add that property to an existing +1 weapon, in which case that item's CL is 5th. Despite the variation in caster level, that item's price is unchanged. You don't get to pay less for having a lower caster level on an item, and you don't have to pay more for a higher caster level. A Wizard 10 could put the Speed property on a weapon and it would be at CL 10, and it would still cost the same.

Just the same, a Hat of Anonymity requires Craft Wondrous Item and Nondetection, so a Wizard 3 could meet those requirements and create one at CL 3. The item would not cost any less than the CL 7 version, because the price is already set. Just the same, a 20th level character could create that item at CL 20, and it would be the same price as what's listed.

The Spell Level x Caster Level x GP amount formula is not applicable for existing wondrous items, they already have a price assigned. The post-errata item creation rules specifically say that when creating a magical item, the item's caster level is based on the creator's caster level. The original DMG printing caused the printed caster levels of items to be an extra, unintentional prerequisite for creating those items, and it was errated to allow variation in the caster level without affecting the cost of the items. You cannot create an item at a lower caster level for a lower price, and creating an existing item with a set price at a higher caster level will not affect its cost.

[Duke of URL]

The post-errata item creation rules specifically say that when creating a magical item, the item's caster level is based on the creator's caster level.

No, it says that the creator determines the caster level of the item. It does not say that increasing an item's CL is free.

[hamishspence]

Just the same, a Hat of Anonymity requires Craft Wondrous Item and Nondetection, so a Wizard 3 could meet those requirements and create one at CL 3. The item would not cost any less than the CL 7 version, because the price is already set. Just the same, a 20th level character could create that item at CL 20, and it would be the same price as what's listed.

You could create a homebrew similar item with CL3- but it would not be a hat of Anonymity- because those are- explicitly- CR7.

The prerequisite does have to be met, for lower-level casters, if you want to duplicate the item.

[Tyndmyr]

Right. Just because a cost is unstated does not mean that the cost is free.

So, you can create a more dispel resistant version of an existing magic item, sure. There is no guarantee that doing so will not affect the cost.

The custom item creation guidelines advise a specific scaling for increasing CL. The DM may opt to overrule that. The rules are permissive, you get to do things only if they say you can. So, yes. You definitely can make a higher CL version. But it isn't free to do so unless the rules say it is.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Is it......
"For other magic items, the caster level is determined by [whatever] the creator [wants it to be]."
or
"For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator['s caster level]."

Grammatically, the second is correct. The paragraph quoted begins by stating that certain items can have a variable caster level. It goes on to state that for other magic items, the caster level is set according to the creator's caster level. I doubt they intended to allow a relatively low level character to create an item with an infinitely high caster level.

If creating items at a higher caster level makes them cost more, then creating items at a lower caster level would make them cost less. There are no double standards in these rules, and you cannot get items for less than their listed cost. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the typically-looted version of the item, then your creation costs are still going to be based on that item's listed full price. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level happens to be higher than that of the typically-looted version of the item, you're not going to be stuck paying more for creating it at your own caster level.

[Keld Denar]

You can always opt to cast a spell at a CL less than your maximum CL, to a minimum of whatever the minimum is required to cast a spell of that level. So if you did have a CL of 10, and you wanted to make an item with a CL of 7, you could, simply by casting the spell at CL 7 every day when you cast the spell as part of the item creation process.

[Duke of URL]

If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the typically-looted version of the item, then your creation costs are still going to be based on that item's listed full price.

No, that's not correct. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the item as listed in the DMG, then you cannot make that item at all, as you do not meet the minimum caster level requirement. You can make a similar item, using the item creation guidelines (which includes caster level as a cost component), subject to DM approval.

[Fax Celestis]

Grammatically, the second is correct.

Grammatically, both are correct.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, that's not correct. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the item as listed in the DMG, then you cannot make that item at all, as you do not meet the minimum caster level requirement. You can make a similar item, using the item creation guidelines (which includes caster level as a cost component), subject to DM approval.

Read the DMG errata. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite to create it, hence the semicolon separating it from the prerequisite listing. The caster level given for any item is what it will have when found as loot within the game. If you create a magic item, the creator's caster level sets what the item's caster level is.

[Fax Celestis]

Read the DMG errata. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite to create it, hence the semicolon separating it from the prerequisite listing. The caster level given for any item is what it will have when found as loot within the game. If you create a magic item, the creator's caster level sets what the item's caster level is.

I see nothing in the DMG errata stating that an items caster level is not a prerequisite. To be fair, the FAQ does state that CL is not a prerequisite:

The rules for magic item creation permit a character
creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another
caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item.
The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the
character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to
cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with
the item creation feat being used to create the item (the
“creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example,
can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat
create items containing any spell (assuming access to the
spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells?

Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum
caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default
caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)
A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create
a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to
cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had
access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an
item or another character).

I do, however, see the following in the SRD.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Creating Wondrous Items

To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item. Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline. Creating an item costs half the market value listed.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some items may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a wondrous item requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

...which of course indicates this table, which uses caster level as a multiplier. Going back to the first quote,

[a] creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

...which implies that you can only increase the caster level with metamagic. As such, you can use, say, Heighten Spell to increase the level, but then your cost goes up because the spell level increases (and with it, the minimum caster level).

[hamishspence]

Given that the item creation pricing guidelines use caster level as a multiplier for cost- maybe you can work out what the cost of the high CL item is, by dividing cost by old CL and multiplying by new CL?

So- for CL20 version of CL7 item- divide price by 7 then multiply it by 20?

[Trouvere]

[tl;wr - the listed CLs make no sense. Best just to treat them as an unmodifiable representation of how tightly the magic is bound to an individual item.]

The simple truth of the matter is, those CL entries alongside wondrous items make little sense, and are probably a result of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing when the PHB was first written.

What are the theories? (1) That the CL listed was intended as a prerequisite - quite possibly true at one point in the writing process, but it's clear that it is no longer intended as a requirement, if it ever was one. Also, all those CL 1 and CL 2 items items that need CWI to make? Yeah. (2) That it is just a helpful guide to the average CL of a random item found as loot. Maybe. But why wouldn't it just be the minimum CL required to create the item given the listed prerequisites? Maybe it represents the 'average sort of crafter' who'd make such a thing, given expected WBL?

Let's look at a couple of items:

Bag of Tricks, various. CL 3, 5, 9. They match exactly with the minimum CLs required to cast the prerequisite spells. Lots of wondrous items seem to work this way. It would have been nice if they all did.

Amulet of Mighty Fists. CL 5, whether it's a +1 or a +5 amulet. But the creator's CL must be at least 3 times the granted bonus. Why CL 5, then, when you can make them at CL 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15?

Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location. CL 8, though it only requires a 3rd level spell. Well, I think they picked the CL of this one so as to set a DC of 19 for the Nondetection effect, for their own obscure reasons. There is no way an 8th level NPC caster could afford to make one of these for himself.

Minor Circlet of Blasting. CL 6, a bit higher than the prerequisite CL 5.
Major Circlet of Blasting, though, CL 17. Even though a maximised Searing Light only requires CL 11.

Folding Boat. CL 6. But it requires Fabricate, a 5th level spell. The item CL is lower than the minimum CL needed to cast the spell. That's odd in itself. And there goes, again, the theory that the CL is a further prerequisite.

Goggles of Minute Seeing. CL 3. But they require True Seeing, at least a 5th level spell. Again the item CL is lower than the minimum CL for the prequisite spell. You can't create a CL 4 Wand of Fireball, so how can you create a CL 3 item from a minimum CL 9 spell, if the CL means the same thing in each case? It obviously doesn't.

Well, then, those two items conclusively demonstrate either that their CLs are typos, or that the listed CL has nothing to do with prerequisites or the crafter's own CL.

Eyes of Charming. CL 7. Made using heightened Charm Person. DC 16. Hey, that actually makes sense. At CL 7, heightened to a 4th level spell, requiring minimum Int/Cha 14 (+2) to cast, for a DC of 10+4+2=16. The exception that proves the rule?

Generally, there's just no rhyme or reason to these numbers.

I think we're left with only one possibility - the listed CL of a wondrous item is not 'accessible' to the crafter. It represents an unpredictable fundamental interaction between the specific item and the laws of magic. Some items work well and therefore get a high CL (=high resistance to dispelling), some items struggle to hold their magical properties, and have a low intrinsic CL... regardless of which spells went into them. It's a bit like the way that items in the wrong body slot cost more, but not much.

A box that turns into two different boats? That's ridiculous. The laws of magic do not approve. CL 6, even though the crafter was at least CL 9. Pearl of Power I, made by a lowly 1st level wizard? The laws of magic approve of this sort of thing. CL 17. Made by a 20th level wizard? Well, they don't approve that much. Still CL 17.

In other words, the game designers sometimes went with the easy answer of matching item CL to spell prerequisites, sometimes picked a number deliberately to control duration or DC of an item's effect, but quite often they just picked a number at random.

[hamishspence]

I think we're left with only one possibility - the listed CL of a wondrous item is not 'accessible' to the crafter. It represents an unpredictable fundamental interaction between the specific item and the laws of magic. Some items work well and therefore get a high CL (=high resistance to dispelling), some items struggle to hold their magical properties, and have a low intrinsic CL... regardless of which spells went into them. It's a bit like the way that items in the wrong body slot cost more, but not much.

This seems like a good way of handling it.

If someone wants a higher CL item- they can use the Create Your Own Item rules- and the DM adjucates if such an item can exist.

Magic Item Compendium often has huge discounts for some items- the aforementioned Hat of Anonymity being one.

It's listed as 12500 gp: but a CL7 item of Continuous Nondetection (spell duration is in hours, so no change to cost) would be 7 X 3 X 2000 g: = 42000 gp.

And that's before you get the +5 untyped bonus to Hide- a +5 competence bonus to Hide is worth 2500 gp- so the item adds at least that much to its cost and possibly more.

[Fax Celestis]

This seems like a good way of handling it.

If someone wants a higher CL item- they can use the Create Your Own Item rules- and the DM adjucates if such an item can exist.

Magic Item Compendium often has huge discounts for some items- the aforementioned Hat of Anonymity being one.

It's listed as 12500 gp: but a CL7 item of Continuous Nondetection (spell duration is in hours, so no change to cost) would be 7 X 3 X 2000 g: = 42000 gp.

And that's before you get the +5 untyped bonus to Hide- a +5 competence bonus to Hide is worth 2500 gp- so the item adds at least that much to its cost and possibly more.

Those discounts are instated because nobody would buy that item for 42k, but at 12.5k it's competitively priced and is an actual option.

[hamishspence]

True. At CL 20, a homebrew version would theoretically be worth 120000 gp before adding the Hide bonus.

Assuming for the moment that the value of the untyped skill bonus is roughly equivalent to the competence bonus (a very generous assumption), getting 42000 gp-worth of magical property for 10000 gp is unusually good, but still reasonable.

Getting 120000 gp-worth of magical property for 10000 gp- perhaps a little too much?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most of the people in this thread are completely ignoring a few facts:

1. The pricing guidelines are for new items, not existing items. A printed magic item has a set price already, there is no provision for modification of its price anywhere in the printed rules. The pricing guidelines are not applicable to existing items, they already have a set-in-stone price which does not even follow that same formula.

2. Magic items have variable caster levels. This is specifically stated in the RAW, when you create a magic item it does not have to have the same caster level as the printed version. This is an allowance intentionally put in place, and a good reason to invest in item creation feats.

3. The caster level of an existing wondrous item is completely independent of its cost. The caster level is variable, the price is not. Some item prices may be dependent on caster level, but this does not mean all items follow that formula. Some items have variable prices (wands, potions, etc.) but this does not mean all items have variable prices.

RAW there is no justification for increasing the price of a wondrous item when one is crafted at a higher caster level using the item creation rules.

Furthermore, Keld Denar: "You can always opt to cast a spell at a CL less than your maximum CL, to a minimum of whatever the minimum is required to cast a spell of that level."
Completely incorrect, DMG page 288: "The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"
You do not cast the spells, you make them available to cast and they become unavailable as though cast, you do not actually cast the spells, so you do not have the option of faking a lower caster level when creating an item. When created the item's caster level is equal to the creator's caster level at the time of creation, no option of setting it any lower. This should be an advantage of investing in item creation feats, but making it increase the cost would be a severe drawback.


Finally, if you were to modify the price of a Hat of Anonymity according to its caster level, it would be as follows:
12,500 gp, +5 unnamed Hide bonus, continuous Nondetection CL 7
DMG page 282 sidebar, multiple different abilities: The lower priced property is 50% more expensive.
+5 skill bonus: 5x5x100=2500, x1.5 multiple different abilities = 3750 gp, assuming unnamed follows the same pricing as competence, though it should be considerably higher.
12500 - 3750 = 8750 gp for the nondetection. 8750/7= 1250xCL gp
Total Cost: 1250 x CL gp + 3750 gp

[hamishspence]

When created the item's caster level is equal to the creator's caster level at the time of creation, no option of setting it any lower.

Which raises the question of why many of the items in the DMG, by RAW, can't be created by anybody exactly as they are described- since their caster level is lower than the minimum level needed to be able to cast the relevant spell.

A Ring of Mind-Shielding for example- CL3, requires the nondetection spell which is 3rd level- by your interpretation of RAW, no wizard-created Rings of Mind Shielding that match the DMG description fully, can exist.

[Fax Celestis]

Most of the people in this thread are completely ignoring a few facts:

Would you perhaps discuss the points I posted that both support and refute your opinion on the matter?

[Tyndmyr]

RAW there is no justification for increasing the price of a wondrous item when one is crafted at a higher caster level using the item creation rules.

So, I can craft eternal wands at arbitrarily high caster levels? Seems doubtful.

There is also no justification for not increasing the price. And every known example of increasing caster level is accompanied by increasing the price.