"Size doesn't matter, it's how you use it!" [D&D 3.5 PrC, PEACH]

[The Dark Fiddler]

{Picture pending}
"You ain't seen a real warrior 'til you've seen a gnome take down a giant with nothin' but a kinfe an' a buckler!" - Grunsh, half-orc barbarian, on the performance of his ally, a gnomish giant slayer.

There is a long history, written and oral, of mighty warriors overcoming beasts far larger than themselves. Many choose to dedicate themselves to fighting such foes, possibly seeing it as a sign of strength to be able to take on foes several times your own size.

Hit Die: d10

Requirements:
Feats: Dodge
BAB +5 or Sneak Attack +3d6 or Skirmish +2d6/+1
Special: Must be of medium size or smaller

GIANT SLAYER
{table=head]Level|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|

+1

|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|Giant Sneak Attack +1d6, Underfoot

2nd|

+2

|

+3

|

+0

|

+0

|Size Doesn’t Matter…, Manipulate the Giants

3rd|

+3

|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|Giant Sneak Attack +2d6, Dodging Mountains, Mobility

4th|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Except When it Does, Fast Movement

5th|

+5

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Giant Sneak Attack +3d6, The Harder They Fall[/table]

Class Skills: The giant slayer’s class skills (and the key ability for each) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Giant Sneak Attack: This ability functions as the rogue class feature Sneak Attack, with the following exceptions. The extra damage granted by this class feature may only be applied to creatures larger than the giant slayer. However, for every size category larger than medium the target is, the range at which a sneak attack can be made increases by 10 feet. This extra range applies to sneak attack damage granted by other classes as well.

Underfoot: At first level, a giant slayer begins to learn how to duck and weave past larger opponents. He may move through an area occupied by an enemy two size categories larger than himself rather than the normal three. This movement is otherwise completely the same as before, including provoking attack of opportunities.

At third level, this ability improves, allowing the giant slayer to move through the area of an enemy one size category larger than himself.

Size Doesn’t Matter…: At second level, a giant slayer begins to learn how to overcome his opponent’s advantages granted by size in hand-to-hand combat. He may treat his opponent a number of size categories smaller equal to half his class level for the purposes of size bonuses to grapples, trips, and similar maneuvers, to a minimum of the giant slayer’s size category. Additionally, he gains a +2 morale bonus to the opposed checks of such maneuvers.

At fifth level, this ability improves, allowing a giant slayer to count his opponent as four size categories smaller than he really is. Additionally, the morale bonus to opposed checks improves to +4.

Manipulate the Giants: At second level, a giant slayer learns how to better manipulate larger foes. This ability is similar to the ranger's favored enemy class feature, providing a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, and Survival checks, as well as damage, though it applies to all enemies at least one size category bigger than the giant slayer. This bonus stacks with race-specific favored enemies gained from another class.

Dodging Mountains: When the target of a giant slayer’s dodge feat is of a larger size category than himself, he gains an additional +2 dodge bonus to his armor class.

Mobility: At third level, a giant slayer gains the Mobility feat as a bonus feat. If he already has the feat, he may take Spring Attack instead.

Except When it Does: When attacking or being attacked by an opponent that is both of a larger size category than himself and the target of his Dodge feat, a giant slayer may treat his opponent as one size category larger for the purposes of size modifiers to armor class and attack rolls.

Fast Movement: At fourth level, a giant slayer learns how to move quickly, faster than the norm for his race. His base land speed improves by 10 feet. This ability stacks with those of a similar name, such as the barbarian’s or monk’s.

The Harder They Fall: When successfully tripping an opponent of a size category larger than himself, a giant slayer may make an attack of opportunity against the target, and may also apply sneak attack damage to the attack, even if the target wouldn’t normally be a valid target. This is otherwise the same as a normal sneak attack. The target also takes an extra 2d8 damage, regardless of whether the attack is made.






Wrote this up today during school, based on a short discussion in the IRC on how the Gnome Giant-Slayer PrC from Complete Warrior was kind of bad. Even if it's not, it's still gnome only, which... I'm not a fan of, personally. With how often people take on creatures far larger than them, you'd think there'd be a better PrC or feat chain or something for it. I'm hoping this does a bit better of a job than GG-S, though I mostly wrote it up because it kept rattling around in my brain. Anyway, comments, criticism, death threats all welcome. Like I said, I pretty much made this all in one shot today during school, maybe 45 minutes. It's bound to be a bit rough.

[Lix Lorn]

Awww, I'd love to take advantage of death threats, cause they're fun, but it looks great to me.

[Violet Octopus]

Hit Die: d10

Requirements:
Feats: Dodge
BAB: +5
Special: Must be of medium size or smaller

Fewer feats and skill prerequisites to get in, and it keeps the BAB requisite of the original. Given the capstone, Improved Trip should probably also be a prerequisite. I'm surprised that rogues have a harder time getting into a class that grants a modified sneak attack and is all about tricky fighting. I guess it's only two levels difference though.

The Will save in the table is unusual. Any reason you're deviating from the convention of good/poor saves?

Class Skills:

No Move Silently? Also missing skill points per level.

Favored Enemy: At second level, a giant slayer learns how to better manipulate larger foes. This ability is similar to the ranger ability of the same name, though it applies to all enemies bigger than the giant slayer. This bonus stacks with race-specific favored enemies gained from another class. This ability cannot be advanced by any class or feat that could normally advance it.

So, +2 to various skills and damage against any creature larger than you? This seems fine. However, I might rename it to something else, given it doesn't interact with things that advance Favored Enemy.

Dodging Mountains could use a tag saying "At third level...".

The Harder They Fall: When successfully tripping an opponent of a size category larger than himself, a giant slayer may make an attack of opportunity against the target, and may also apply sneak attack damage to the attack, even if he wouldn’t normally be able to. The target also takes an extra 2d8 damage, regardless of whether the attack is made.

This is very nice, though what happens if a giant-slayer has Improved Trip? Do they get to make two attacks, one with automatic sneak attack?

Overall I like it, especially the stuff that negates size bonuses to special combat maneuvers. It doesn't seem overpowered either, although since the mechanics are confined to Core + Complete Warrior, there's a chance it might outshine other melee stuff that exists in such a game. I don't have a good eye for balance though, so take that with a grain of salt.

[Lix Lorn]

..before I rechecked the special requirement, I had a fun image of a giant Tarrasque-slayer. XD

[The Dark Fiddler]

Fewer feats and skill prerequisites to get in, and it keeps the BAB requisite of the original. Given the capstone, Improved Trip should probably also be a prerequisite. I'm surprised that rogues have a harder time getting into a class that grants a modified sneak attack and is all about tricky fighting. I guess it's only two levels difference though.

Yeah, it is a bit of a shame that rogues have a harder time getting in. If you've got better prerequisites that could solve this, I'm open to suggestions.

The Will save in the table is unusual. Any reason you're deviating from the convention of good/poor saves?

Yes, there is. Typos

No Move Silently? Also missing skill points per level.

Hmm... skill points somehow missed the transfer from the word document I typed it in.

So, +2 to various skills and damage against any creature larger than you? This seems fine. However, I might rename it to something else, given it doesn't interact with things that advance Favored Enemy.

Good point, will rename.

This is very nice, though what happens if a giant-slayer has Improved Trip? Do they get to make two attacks, one with automatic sneak attack?

Pretty much.

Thanks for the feedback

[Violet Octopus]

Yeah, it is a bit of a shame that rogues have a harder time getting in. If you've got better prerequisites that could solve this, I'm open to suggestions.

You could replace BAB+5 with 8 ranks in a skill. Unfortunately the only class skills shared by rogue, ranger and fighter are Climb, Jump, Swim and Craft. Climb makes some vague sense, but then, not much.

Alternately, just say "BAB+5, or Sneak Attack +3d6 (or Sudden Strike +3d6, or Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC)"

If you do go for the skills option, while Climb is unfortunately necessary as a level control, requiring 2 ranks in Escape Artist and Tumble would convey the style of combat the class leans towards. Which is why the original version listed them. Well, actually 3 ranks, but that's a little harsh on the Fighter. Also add Mobility as a prerequisite feat, so that if Fighters have a tough time qualifying, so do Rogues.

Hope that helps

[firemagehao]

Interesting way to use the quote.

This could eaisily become extreamly powerful if a tiny or smaller creature was using it. 3d6+1 needle damage!

[The Dark Fiddler]

You could replace BAB+5 with 8 ranks in a skill. Unfortunately the only class skills shared by rogue, ranger and fighter are Climb, Jump, Swim and Craft. Climb makes some vague sense, but then, not much.

Alternately, just say "BAB+5, or Sneak Attack +3d6 (or Sudden Strike +3d6, or Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC)"

If you do go for the skills option, while Climb is unfortunately necessary as a level control, requiring 2 ranks in Escape Artist and Tumble would convey the style of combat the class leans towards. Which is why the original version listed them. Well, actually 3 ranks, but that's a little harsh on the Fighter. Also add Mobility as a prerequisite feat, so that if Fighters have a tough time qualifying, so do Rogues.

Hope that helps

I don't know, I'm not a fan of PrCs that are hard to enter, personally. Maybe it's just my own personal style, though.

[Niezck]

Would the Underfoot ability still provoke attacks of opportunity for moving out of a threatened square, or did you intend for it not to? (It doesn't say either way at the moment, sooo)

[Violet Octopus]

I don't know, I'm not a fan of PrCs that are hard to enter, personally. Maybe it's just my own personal style, though.

Fair enough. My intent wasn't to make it hard to enter, just equally hard for fighter and rogue. But the "BAB +5 or Sneak Attack +3d6" option does that just as well, if not better.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Would the Underfoot ability still provoke attacks of opportunity for moving out of a threatened square, or did you intend for it not to? (It doesn't say either way at the moment, sooo)

Yes, yes it does.

Fair enough. My intent wasn't to make it hard to enter, just equally hard for fighter and rogue. But the "BAB +5 or Sneak Attack +3d6" option does that just as well, if not better.

Hmm... alright, then.

[Cieyrin]

You never actually say what bonus Manipulate the Giants provides, just that it does and that it's similar to Favored Enemy. We can infer y'mean that it's supposed to be +2 but, well, actually saying that's what you intend is probably better than inferring.

[The Dark Fiddler]

You never actually say what bonus Manipulate the Giants provides, just that it does and that it's similar to Favored Enemy. We can infer y'mean that it's supposed to be +2 but, well, actually saying that's what you intend is probably better than inferring.

Alright, added a bit more specifics to the description.

[Wandiya]

According to the wording, one could apply the sneak attack damage to undead since they wouldn’t normally be able to. Might want to change the wording somehow.

[The Dark Fiddler]

According to the wording, one could apply the sneak attack damage to undead since they wouldn’t normally be able to. Might want to change the wording somehow.

*Mutters something about how a lot of undead don't deserve to be immune to sneak attack and crits* Alright, fixed up that wording, I think.