[3.5] Tanking in a no-op party

[Gensh]

Exactly what it says. I'm going to be playing in a game with a bunch of people I've never met on Sunday, and the information that I can give you is limited at the moment, but I need help building my character. From what I've heard from the archer (ranger, I think, though maybe something else) and the cleric, there's basically no optimization in the group at all, so even though you normally see me here arguing against high-op, even I might need to tone it down. The party consists of a paladin, two(?) clerics, (I think) a wizard, and the unknown archer; they've asked me to be another tank. I'm thinking about straight cleric going into bone knight, but beyond that, I don't know because I don't even know what level the party is at. On top of that, I've only ever DMed, so I don't know what is viable player-side, especially with a group like this.

So how can I be a brick wall as a melee cleric without stepping on the paladin's toes? Alternatively, what might be a better option? Since the archer player was shocked to hear me say the phrase "melee cleric" and spent a lot of time complaining about how katars should do more damage, I doubt ToB would get a warm reception. MoI maybe? I've never actually used it, and it might raise even more eyebrows than the former.

[Morithias]

I say Barbarian. Rage, DR, D12 HD. Or Knight from PHB2. Both are natural tanks, and should be ok for low-op party.

[Greenish]

Reach weapon + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still. The paladin most likely doesn't have Stand Still, and the ability to stop enemies from moving away is essential for tanking.

Both Incarnate and Totemist can make pretty decent tanks, and if you want really low power, there's the Soulborn, but that's very similar to paladin.

[snoopy13a]

If it is a low-level game, you could play a basic trip fighter.

[subject42]

Psion or Psychic warrior can actually make for an awesomely "tanky" character. Just abuse Vigor and Share Pain with your psicrystal, then top off your Psicrystal with the Psionic Repair spell (I forget the exact name).

If you do that as an Elan you're just an unstoppable pain sponge. Additionally, you can use a few other powers to make yourself enough of a threat to make enemies want to hit you, instead of just ignore you.

[Eldariel]

Cleric sounds like a plan. Use spells that boost and enlarge you (Strength-domain has Enlarge Person at level 1), get Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (or Improved Trip if you have a generous stat array) along with a reach weapon, profit. Being a Cleric, you'll naturally have a good array of protections and buffs at your disposal and yeah.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd say... be a straight Human Barbarian. Come with three versions of the character, at three different optimization levels. Have the party, dm, and group choose which is okay. (IE, one of them is that MoI Human variant with a bunch of Incarnum stuff and Power attack and lots Rage improving feats and skill tricks and uses a few variant class features (like pounce and a variant rage of some sort), one of them is a normal human with good feats but everything straightforward, albeit from lots different books, maybe with one variant class feature, and one of them is a normal human with mild, straightforward op using core & srd only).

[Kaww]

No optimization:

Commoner 1, Survivor 1, xx (has diplomacy and concentration, monk for saves and AC) lvl 1, Survivor lvl 4, apostle of peace 10, then Saint = ECL 19 end game.

Feats: VoP, VoNV, VoPeace, Extend, Persist and DMM. Go all out on constitution, charisma and wisdom. There, a mostly useless build that can tank anything and has healing and limited lvl 9 spells. Has IUD,IE, DR 5/-, twisted saves and annoys other players...

[Greenish]

There, a mostly useless build that can tank anything

How does that "tank" anything? Aside from permanent Calm Emotions, it has nothing to stop the enemies from attacking others.

[Kaww]

...Aside from permanent Calm Emotions...

We are ignoring a very high DC here.

[Greenish]

We are ignoring a very high DC here.

Yes, because we're angry, because one of your friends hurt us, which ended the effect.

[Kaww]

I move a bit. Roll again.

Party: ready action when he starts moving we all shoot.

This is twisting it a bit. As I said party will hate you. They aren't allowed to attack ether. As said: a mostly useless build that can tank anything.

[Nich_Critic]

I think that's optimized... towards annoying the enemy/party as much as possible.

[Hawk7915]

I think the best thing to do would be to show them strategies they've never thought of, without going totally broken. Stay mostly in core (with a few choice non-core feats or supplemental classes). No ToB, no spellcasters, no MoI. Barbarian, Knight, and Fighter are all decent "starting points"; show off tricks like Bull Rushing, Tripping, Sundering, Disarming, and Lockdown with the right feat choices.

I'd also second making several characters and choosing one that feels right after seeing everyone else's sheets. So roll a Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Orc Barbarian with Shaky and Vulnerable to get Reckless Rage alongside Power Attack and that feat that increases charge damage as an orc...but also roll a simple Human Fighter with a reach weapon, Imp. Trip, and Combat Reflexes (or a solid 2H, Improved Sunder, or some sort of "combo"). Teach them cool stuff while doing your job and also not totally outshining everyone else.

[Kaww]

I think that's optimized... towards annoying the enemy/party as much as possible.

Aaah, finally a soul that understands this build. DM throws undead/constructs at you with this. Aldo I am playing in a semi/mostly nonviolent campaign. Our DM loves it.

[Wings of Peace]

Honestly if the party is that low-op then as the tank I think that means you should be dialing it up so that if there's a potential tko situation you have the ability to pull the party out of it.

You can always play yourself down with a strong build, it's much harder to dial things up when needed with a weak build

[Fax Celestis]

Knight 4/Warblade 1/Deepstone Sentinel 10/Moar Warblade 4

Viable 1 through 20, very good at tanking.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Just because your group needs a tank dose not mean you have to do the tanking yourself...there are other ways to do it. One of them is having a pile of animated skeletons and zombies to soak up enemy attacks...and what better for that then the Dread Necromancer? The Dread Necromancer's undead army can in and of itself be a sort of tank, putting a wall of minions between enemies and squishies. However, you don't have the army right off the bat, but for a DN, that's no worry, really. A DN can become a decent melee fighter with the right feats, mainly Imperious Command and Tomb-Tainted Soul.

Tomb-Tainted Soul is an absolute NECESSITY as a DN. Why? It allows you to have an INFINITE USE out of battle heal via your charnel touch power. So, while you only have light armor and don't have the high hit dice of some other melee classes, you will be entering every fight with full health, something that other melee classes could only do if they had excess of potions or a cleric who actually likes being a healbot. In addition to this, DNs can, if built right, humiliate enemies in combat...not through actual combat ability, but rather through fear effects.

DN's fear aura, combined with the Imperious Command feat and a good intimidate skill will allow you to get rather silly with the fear stacking to the point where enemies will be nothing but easy targets who are cowering at your feat. At that point you won't need to worry about your lack of better armor or HD because an enemy scared out of their wits is not going to be hitting you back.

As you become higher this kind of melee tactic will eventually be replaced by your undead army, which is the bread and butter of the DN class. However, if your game is low-op, a DN may not be the best bet...yeah, they are tier 3, but some people(like the paladin) may feel a bit...underpowered. Especially when your walking around with a giant army of undead and humiliating enemies in combat via stacked fear effects. However, with a low-op party you may need a more powerful character to get out of rough spots and as said before, it's easier to tone down a powerful character then it is to tone up a weak one, and while there are plenty of other options, a DN, being a tier 3 would at least be somewhat less overpowered then a optimized Clericzilla who's a tier 1.

A few other ideas to consider would be the Psywar or perhaps the duskblade. The Psywar was already discussed and the Duskblade is a self contained gish. I however, am not all that familiar with duskblades but from what I have read they seem more focused on high damage then actually staying alive and tanking, so that class may not be what your looking for.

Oh...and there is one more I almost forgot...the Binder. The Binder is a VERY versatile class and can actually be good in melee with the right vestiges. While I am not too familiar with the class, Binders have some very good melee based vestiges that can give them stuff like ability score bonuses, weapons proficiencies ect..

[Grynning]

I recommend taking a gander at the Knight Handbook. Only issue here is the "stepping on the Paladin's toes" part, but that can be handled as a fluff and role-play issue (maybe your Knight is LN and not a boy scout, or doesn't actually call himself a Knight, or whatever).

Also, Fax's build made me think of it, being Dwarfy and all - Deepwarden can be pretty tanky with a D12 hit die and Con to AC. Also gets Track and some other Rangery stuff that your group is lacking at the moment. The skills are a bit hard to get with Knight levels, but can easily be picked up with Barbarian, which has been discussed above.

Hell, you could play Fistbeard Beardfist. That's a fun, not overpowered build that your group would probably get a kick out of, though it's not super-effective until mid to high levels.

[herrhauptmann]

How about the Horizon Tripper?
It's more of a lockdown build, than a straight tank. But if the most important part of a tank build is preventing the enemies from hitting your party, does it really matter how you do that? Whether it's by stopping them from moving/hitting, or forcing them ignore you at their peril.

[Amphetryon]

Scroll to He Who Hunts Monsters. Warning: Do not attempt Algernon of the White Lilies unless you want to seriously risk alienating the DM and being concussed by one or more rule books.

[Diarmuid]

Dont forget the Goad feat. Pretty much one of the only "taunt" type ability I've seen.

Though as was mentioned before, a druid or conjurer focused on summoning could definitely tank. Either of those is probably a better option that the necromancer given the paladins in the party.

[Seffbasilisk]

If you do end up going Bone Knight, pick up the Troll-Blooded and Blooded feats.

Another +1 to the Barbarian idea. The ACF that lets you use Survival to find traps? Gravy.

Alternately, you might try tricking out a straight fighter with a tower/heavy shield... That could be a fun challenge, so long as you avoid the Captain America temptation.

[Endarire]

What about a Druid? Your tanking companion comes standard from level 1.