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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    I don't know. Kids love Star Wars and that was always Lucas' target audience.
    Actually, no. He was aiming to make something timeless, based on the then popular idea of the Hero Journey. What Lucas was aiming for was a modern day mythology. And he did that beyond his wildest dreams.

    But eh primary audience was never just kids. He delibarately kept things kid friendly, but never targetted them with the movies.

    The merchandise was a different story. I remember being utterly green with envy at my friend, who had both the Milennium Falcn and Vader's TiE fighter.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Question: What would have happened if Luke turned to the dark side by killing his father instead of staying a Jedi Knight? Would the Emperor and Luke survive by escaping the Death Star?

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    Luke turning to the dark side would cause an emotional whiplash to Leia, who would then lose the will to fight, thus ensuring that the Rebels lose and the entire rebellion falling apart.

    Darth Sidious and Skywalker would then rule the galaxy, with Luke hunting down any remnants of the Rebel Alliance.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdstephens View Post
    Would the Emperor and Luke survive by escaping the Death Star?
    The Death Star attack would have a much greater chance at failure, as Palpatine could focus his attention on Battle Meditation, and Luke could scramble a fighter or something and strike down everything.

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    Or Luke could land on the Home One, march up to the command bubble, and make fried calamari.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdstephens View Post
    Question: What would have happened if Luke turned to the dark side by killing his father instead of staying a Jedi Knight? Would the Emperor and Luke survive by escaping the Death Star?
    It couldn't have happened; it went against the will of the Force.

    Assuming that somehow they got around that, then obviously the Force would be with them and the Millennium Falcon would crash somewhere within the Death Star harmlessly, Luke and Palpatine wouldn't escape the Death Star they would fire its laser into the fleet scattering the Rebels. The Rebellion would quickly be broken and the Empire would rule supreme.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    It couldn't have happened; it went against the will of the Force.
    In my defense, my type of "what if" question is the entire basis of the Star Wars Infinities comics XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdstephens View Post
    In my defense, my type of "what if" question is the entire basis of the Star Wars Infinities comics XD
    I know, and that's why I continued with an answer that extended what if it happened. I like thinking about this, but I also have to recognize how that universe works and how stuff would have to be arranged for it to happen and then what would happen afterward. It's interesting
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdstephens View Post
    Question: What would have happened if Luke turned to the dark side by killing his father instead of staying a Jedi Knight? Would the Emperor and Luke survive by escaping the Death Star?
    According to the EU (Zahn), the Emperor was influencing the Imperial forces via the Force and his death caused a decrease in their capabilities that allowed the attack to be successful.

    So, it basically depends on how much weight you give to the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    By the way, clone cylinder numbers were fixed by Zahn in his novelette Hero of Cartao, and besides, 20 days was just Republic's guess. IIRC, he come within 1-2 days at the end.
    And what was the figure, exactly? It's true that Mara says "At least 20,000 cylinders, maybe more" though.

    The 20 day figure is not a guess- from the description in The Last Command, it's obtained by actually analysing the dead bodies of clones- and Karrde tells his friend he can get a copy of the results if they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Why wasn't in the Army, COMPNOR, or Stormtrooper Officer corps then?
    Because Thrawn wanted to keep her secret from the Emperor- he assigned her to command of Maw Installation's fleet.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    The same Brian Daley wrote The Han Solo Adventures, one of the best SW books, despite their age, in 1978-1980. Corporate Sector, small, unimportant entity shown there has fleet numbering hundreds of Victory Star Destroyers and thousands of battleships, including 3 km, a bit obsolete (thus named battleships, not dreadnoughts) vessels. It was small sector, yet it's fleet outweighed the entire Katana Fleet by two orders of magnitude. As it should, really.
    New C-canon tends to replace old C-canon- and since when is the Corporate Sector a "small, unimportant entity"?

    Zahn, Hambly, and others went with smaller fleets in Spectre of the Past, the Empire's whole fleet of Star Destroyers, (which may include Super Star Destroyers and Victory Star Destroyers, it's not clear) at the height of its power, was "over 25,000".

    And in Children of the Jedi, it's stated more than once that for one ship to destroy completely all settlements on a planet, it needs to be a "supership"- the Eye of Palpatine, larger than a torpedo sphere, larger than the biggest Super Star Destroyers.

    When Daley was writing the Han Solo books, Empire Strikes Back had not yet come out- whereas the Zahn books were some of the earilest post-Return of the Jedi novels.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-01-24 at 09:17 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex-kat View Post
    I remember reading somewhere, that the prequels were originally just short stories for use as background. They were never meant to be three full-length feature films. That is why there was so much fluff that is unnecessary.
    Um... actually, that's wrong way around. There were no prequels, no nothing, but there were episodes 7-9 planned. Emperor was supposed to appear in Episode 9, Luke had other sister, we were supposed to see Coruscant (or ratcher, Had Abbadon, like it was called then). That we know from interviews with Gary Kurtz. What happened? Big ego, small mind (aka Lucas) become jealous of his producent, and, when he had enough force, fired him and produced Episode VI instead, with Marquand. It was the last time anyone dared to oppose him, even Marquand only 'suggested' things (and was among the last to do even that).

    It's sad the movies are now bearing Lucas name, despite Kurtz saving the first one, Martha Lucas helping him in that (she died during her last efforts to improve ANH), despite Ep V having literally nothing to do with Lucas, it was work of Kurtz (again) and Lucas filming techer, one Irvin Kershner. Lucas did nothing, he was drinking curing 'depression' then.

    Yes, two best movies, are best because Lucas could be kept away from them. Even Ep VI stands above the new trilogy, because others had still some say in its making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex-kat View Post
    Trixie, I consider myself to be a fairly big fan of Star Wars, and I never knew there were different actors for either Wedge nor Vader.

    I am shocked, SHOCKED , that I never realized that the Wedge in the briefing scene was not the same actor during the battle and the other three movies. And yes, I was sure it was Wedge in the scene.
    Having two distinct cards for the character helps :P

    As for Wedge being a bigger hero than Luke, I'm willing to debate that.
    Now do that for the Chewie link I gave above

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    Actually, no. He was aiming to make something timeless, based on the then popular idea of the Hero Journey. What Lucas was aiming for was a modern day mythology. And he did that beyond his wildest dreams.
    No, he did not. Kurtz and Martha did, for the most part. Lucas just wanted Flash Gordon II.

    But eh primary audience was never just kids. He delibarately kept things kid friendly, but never targetted them with the movies.
    Um, Lex is entirely correct. Lucas many times stated in interviews he doesn't give a damn about his older fans, people who made him rich, and they should get lost as he made his movies for kids and doesn't want to hear their whining

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    According to the EU (Zahn), the Emperor was influencing the Imperial forces via the Force and his death caused a decrease in their capabilities that allowed the attack to be successful.
    This is retconned to Imperial Grand Admiral giving such, but the end result was the same, Palpatine's death shocked him and he stopped.

    And Pelalleon is a coward, had he not rann, Empire would have won. Small fraction of forces left at Endor, commanded by another Grand Admiral, supposedly battled the rebels for hours until finally they were overwhelmed and captured.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And what was the figure, exactly? It's true that Mara says "At least 20,000 cylinders, maybe more" though.
    I'd have to check after I got home. But, he made enough clones for ten more years of warfare.

    The 20 day figure is not a guess- from the description in The Last Command, it's obtained by actually analysing the dead bodies of clones- and Karrde tells his friend he can get a copy of the results if they want.
    The examination of ever-improving process. They were at 20 day stage then.

    Because Thrawn wanted to keep her secret from the Emperor- he assigned her to command of Maw Installation's fleet.
    Wait, what???

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    New C-canon tends to replace old C-canon- and since when is the Corporate Sector a "small, unimportant entity"?
    Since always. Dead, empty region of space with only 11 sentient species found in it, in other parts of the galaxy it would have been hundreds if not thousands.

    Or are you suggesting Corporate Sector was something armed with fleet outweighting galaxy-conquering fleet WEG writers invented by orders of maginitude? Why haven't they not conquered galaxy, then?

    Zahn, Hambly, and others went with smaller fleets in Spectre of the Past, the Empire's whole fleet of Star Destroyers, (which may include Super Star Destroyers and Victory Star Destroyers, it's not clear) at the height of its power, was "over 25,000".
    Don't remind me of Hambly.

    And the 25.000 SDs number is wrong for two reasons. First, it's from WEGs brain-dead Imperial Sourcebook. Second, it's stated to be Imperial Navy number. That does not include Sector Defence Fleets, commanded by Moffs. These ranged from 16 ISDs to well over a hundred in important sectors. See Azure Hammer fleet, her only task being defense of Coruscant, with 60 ISD+ vessels. Some SDFs included Star Dreadnoughts and Torpedo Spheres. It also does not include Oversector Fleets, like what was to become later Penstar Alignment fleet (hundreds of destroyers, flagship being SSD Reaper). It finally does not include planetary defense, forts, ships, and moving platforms.

    That's why Empire fragmented so fast - Moffs and Grand Moffs had absolute control of lion's share of orbital defense installations and SDFs, Imperial Navy, 25.000 of destroyers and all, was simply too weak to maintain order. In WEG sourcebooks, the Navy was simply 10% reserve force capable of being deployed anywhere in the Galaxy in hours, so if we go by that, Palpatine had at least 250-300.000 of ISD class vessels.

    See the Specter of the Past, even - Disra pockets three star destroyers from his standard 16 ISD SDF and sends them Force knows where, for months, and no one dares to question that. And that was at the time of much more centralized Remnant.

    And in Children of the Jedi, it's stated more than once that for one ship to destroy completely all settlements on a planet, it needs to be a "supership"- the Eye of Palpatine, larger than a torpedo sphere, larger than the biggest Super Star Destroyers.
    Um, it was classified as 'Dreadnought'. It was probably weaker than Executor-class.

    If it was not, well, it's argument against you - does the ability to construct Moon-sized battle stations on a whim using leftover money in complete secret (i.e. using so little resources no one saw the drain) speak against there being colossal fleets, or rather pro the choice?

    Let me remind you second Death Star, 900 kilometers in diameter, was build in secret, using fleet of one transportation cartel, in a half year, despite being equivalent of tens of thousands of star destroyers in resources. And that's if we are extremely conservative. That's the highest canon proof stating WEG numbers are... moronic, to say the least.

    Sorry, I have no idea who was lead designer in the WEG at the time, but seeing Empire constructed at least eight Death Star class weapons in the five years bordering the movies, each one of them equalling these 25.000 destroyers by itself, in addition to maintenance of the fleet and constructions of (possibly up to thousands) of Torpedo Spheres, he was pretty much a (insert expletive here).

    When Daley was writing the Han Solo books, Empire Strikes Back had not yet come out- whereas the Zahn books were some of the earilest post-Return of the Jedi novels.
    And? Everything based on WEG was almost worthless. When I saw Dark Side Points rules (named earlier as 'tearing your character sheet after 6 pro-imperial deeds) I almost died inside. It's a game where you literally have to care to not help Moff's grandma pass the hoverway 6 times.

    The new sourcebooks are not only superior game, but return to canon with numbers, stating [Rebellion Era Campaign Guide]: The Imperial Navy was one of the most formidable militaries ever assembled, consisting of millions of warships, logistical ships and transports, manned by trillions of fleet crew. :P
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  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    The new sourcebooks are not only superior game, but return to canon with numbers, stating [Rebellion Era Campaign Guide]: The Imperial Navy was one of the most formidable militaries ever assembled, consisting of millions of warships, logistical ships and transports, manned by trillions of fleet crew. :P
    The Rebellion Era Campaign Guide quotes WEG numbers for fleet structure and army structure verbatum.

    When WEG started writing their books they only had the movies to go on. As far as they were concerned no one else was going to write on the subject of Star Wars ever again. They were a bunch of non-experts trying to make sense out of a not very well thought out setting.
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  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    The Rebellion Era Campaign Guide quotes WEG numbers for fleet structure and army structure verbatum.
    As above, Imperial Navy =/= Imperial Fleet.

    WEG numbers also include 2 Torpedo Shperes (on average) per sector defense force. There are thounsands of sectors. See the problem yet?

    And that was after cutting their number from 5-10 such wessels.

    Also, see typical Imperial Navy tanker, straight out of WEG. Could you please inform me what they refuleled since one carried enough fuel for about a hundred ISD at a go and there were thousands of them?

    If we accept that there were 'only' 25.000 the whole thing falls apart like box of carts. Mediocre writers like Traviss or Kube-McDowell won't change that.

    When WEG started writing their books they only had the movies to go on. As far as they were concerned no one else was going to write on the subject of Star Wars ever again. They were a bunch of non-experts trying to make sense out of a not very well thought out setting.
    Again, There was 4 series of radio drama and Brian Daley books. With statement of Empire having a million worlds being canon since AHN!

    WEG was full of morons who inserted such choice quotes as the one about Executor nearly bankrupting the Empire or having a full list of Star Destroyers named after diseases or caustic agents.

    One example of their economic provess is them assigning a price of 5 million to armed and armored corellian corvette, while Nebulon B frigate (converted to medical ship, so no armor or expensive guns) that was maybe 3-5x lager in volume costed 200 million. Sum enough to fill the whole interior of star destroyer with medical droids and bacta, so that can't be equipment either.
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  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Let me remind you second Death Star, 900 kilometers in diameter, was build in secret, using fleet of one transportation cartel, in a half year, despite being equivalent of tens of thousands of star destroyers in resources. And that's if we are extremely conservative.
    the Second Death Star's superlaser was already being worked on at the time of Star Wars: A New Hope (the Hammertong Project- mentioned by Timothy Zahn.).

    So where's this "half-year" coming from?

    And the 900 km diameter figure is very suspect- it is based on two assumptions that have clear contradictions.

    The first is that Endor is the same size as Earth. Most recent sources contradict this- making it 4900 km in diameter- about the size of Mercury.

    The second, is that Endor is 17 times the diameter of the Death Star II (based on one hologram, and one screenshot in the movie. Numerous other movie screenshots contradict this). So, for that matter, does the novelization of Return of the Jedi, which calls it out as:

    "Nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful" as the first Death Star.

    Not 4.5 times the diameter and 100 times as big.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    If we accept that there were 'only' 25.000 the whole thing falls apart like box of carts. Mediocre writers like Traviss or Kube-McDowell won't change that.
    The "millions of starships" don't have to all be battleships- they can be cruisers, light cruisers, corvettes, etc.

    And Zahn and Stackpole are some of the more respected Star Wars authors- so it's not only the "mediocre writers" that do it.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-01-24 at 02:19 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    the Second Death Star's superlaser was already being worked on at the time of Star Wars: A New Hope (the Hammertong Project- mentioned by Timothy Zahn.).
    Quote? I read this, and it appeared to be prototype of the first superlaser. That's why it's set before the ANH.

    So where's this "half-year" coming from?
    http://www.starwars.com/databank/loc...rii/index.html

    Construction started 3+ years after ANH. Battle of Endor is early 4 ANH.

    And the 900 km diameter figure is very suspect- it is based on two assumptions that have clear contradictions.
    Star Wars databank, pretty much film canon thinks differently:

    http://www.starwars.com/databank/loc...rii/index.html

    900 kilometers, ayup.

    The first is that Endor is the same size as Earth. Most recent sources contradict this- making it 4900 km in diameter- about the size of Mercury.
    Wookiepedia gives the source of that as...

    Star Wars: Empire at War: Prima Official Game Guide.

    Wait, what? This is supposed to be canon?

    The second, is that Endor is 17 times the diameter of the Death Star II (based on one hologram, and one screenshot in the movie.
    On hologram. Yeah. The only people who tried to use this are various Trekkie sites refusing to accept one ISD > UFP.

    But, that's not a 'versus' thread.

    "Nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful" as the first Death Star.

    Not 4.5 times the diameter and 100 times as big.
    If we go fishing for quotes in earlies novelization, I can easily find numbers making Empire hundred times stronge that it is even in current EU.

    BTW, who said that? And what they measured for power? Superlaser? Size? Firpower? Speed? See the problem here?

    The "millions of starships" don't have to all be battleships- they can be cruisers, light cruisers, corvettes, etc.
    Unless Empire has thousands of cruisers per ISD, extremely fishy ratio contradicted by just about every source, including WEG, I can't see that happening.

    More healthy 1:10 fits ideally with 300.000 ISD number based on WEG's own 10% size of the Imperial Navy/Fleet.

    And Zahn and Stackpole are some of the more respected Star Wars authors- so it's not only the "medicore writers" that do it.
    Zahn? Excellent, yes, but sadly his story was weakened by WEG.

    Stackpole? A guy who bases his stories on X-Wing game (with cheats), so that I recognized at least three missions copied verbatim... Who arbitrarily states X-Wing is more maneuvreable than TIE in atmosphere, despite logic and movies defying this... Who bases all his action scenes on game mechanisms, including beeping locking sound, absent from movies, and describes X-Wing cockpit like one from game, not movie...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Quote? I read this, and it appeared to be prototype of the first superlaser. That's why it's set before the ANH.
    In Spectre of the Past, it was "prototype component of Second death Star's superlaser".

    The Wookieepedia article on Hammertong concurs:
    Mistryl involvement
    By the time that the original Death Star was entering service in 0 BBY, the Hammertong project, now led by a scientist named Eloy, was already working on a superlaser design for the second, even more powerful battlemoon. A prototype section of the prime weapon was constructed in a secret facility on Gorno, and when the research base was relocated to another planet, the Hammertong was installed for transport in a massive hold aboard a specially-adapted Strike Cruiser.
    Implying that it was at least a work in progress as early as ANH.

    There is a Zahn short story covering this in more detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Wookiepedia gives the source of that as...

    Star Wars: Empire at War: Prima Official Game Guide.

    Wait, what? This is supposed to be canon?
    Wookieepedia is sourcing it wrong- the correct source is the most recent edition of the Star Wars Worlds list- which has the present-day style galactic map. Published in 2009.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Essential_Atlas

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    BTW, who said that?
    The RoTJ narration- not one of the characters, so it's not a case of inaccurate information in-universe.

    If I remember rightly, it was Gary M. Sarli, one of the contributors to Saga Edition- who raised the issue of the scaling of DS2 being incorrect in Saxton's Star Wars Technical Commentaries (specifically, when discussing the "Endor Holocaust".)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    The new sourcebooks are not only superior game, but return to canon with numbers, stating [Rebellion Era Campaign Guide]
    The new sourcebooks also have the "3 million clones in the Grand Army of the Republic" figure- in the Clone Wars Campaign Guide, as I recall. So if they're "returning to canon" then this must be included:

    The core of the army:
    ■Grand Army—10 systems armies, with Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as commander-in-chief.
    ■Systems Army—2 Sector Armies (294,912 troops) led by a High Jedi General.
    ■Sector Army—4 corps (147,456 troops) led by a Senior Jedi General.
    ■Corps—4 legions (36,864 troops) led by a clone marshal commander and a Jedi General.
    ■Legion/Brigade—4 regiments (9,216 troops) led by a senior clone commander and a Jedi General.
    ■Regiment—4 battalions (2,304 troops) led by a clone trooper commander, clone regimental commander, and a Jedi Commander.
    ■Battalion—4 companies (576 troops) led by a major.
    ■Company—4 platoons (144 troops) led by a captain.
    ■Platoon—4 squads (36 troops) led by a lieutenant.
    ■Squad—9 soldiers led by a sergeant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    By the way, clone cylinder numbers were fixed by Zahn in his novelette Hero of Cartao, and besides, 20 days was just Republic's guess. IIRC, he come within 1-2 days at the end.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spaarti_cloning_cylinder
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mount_Tantiss

    it puts a 15 day absolute minimum- and repeats the 20,000 cylinder figure.
    If Hero of Cartao contradicts this- what was the figure it gave? Maybe quote a snippet from the story?
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-01-24 at 03:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And the 900 km diameter figure is very suspect- it is based on two assumptions that have clear contradictions.
    But its still canon, just like the obviously wrong size for the Executor used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The new sourcebooks also have the "3 million clones in the Grand Army of the Republic" figure- in the Clone Wars Campaign Guide, as I recall. So if they're "returning to canon" then this must be included:
    Which wasn't their fault.

    They did conform that starship crew didn't count towards that number, which increased things a little.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    But its still canon, just like the obviously wrong size for the Executor used to be.
    True. Originally, 120 km and 160 km for the DS1 and DS2 respectively were canon- until Incredible Cross-Sections came out.

    Sizes being revised upwards seems to be the trend. Falcon from 27m to 35m, AT-AT from 15 m tall to 22m tall.

    Question is- is there enough evidence, to revise the size of the DS2 back downward? What with the Essential Atlas version of Endor, among other things?

    Or is it the Essential Atlas that will get the revision?

    Going back to Star Wars books (and unpopular opinions) thanks to mostly getting mine from the library until quite late, I read them out of order.

    So- I read Planet of Twilight well before Children of the Jedi (and thought it was a fairly entertaining book.)

    Same with I, Jedi, which I read before the X-Wing series.

    Has anyone else read Star Wars books in an unusual order?
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-01-25 at 06:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Sizes being revised upwards seems to be the trend. Falcon from 27m to 35m, AT-AT from 15 m tall to 22m tall.
    Yes, as someone finally bothered to take a look at the movies. Same with Executor, that 12.8 km figure was an average between true 17.1 km, and brain-dead WEG's 8 km.

    Which was pretty obvious to anyone who watched ESB even once.

    Trixie already told most reasons why WEG sucks, to me, random numbers basically anywhere (all rebel starfighters getting +2D6 to manoeuvre just because they're rebel? Y-Wings being more agile than TIE Interceptors?!?! Random sizes/prices? R2D2 being better pilot than Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel [!!!]?) was the last.

    Has anyone else read Star Wars books in an unusual order?
    Try reading them in random translation order we had. X-Wing series come out after NJO, which is why I was incredibly disappointed with Stackpole/Allstone after reading 4 excellent NJO books by them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    X-Wing series come out after NJO, which is why I was incredibly disappointed with Stackpole/Allstone after reading 4 excellent NJO books by them.
    Maybe, more often than not, Star Wars writers tend to improve as they get more experience?

    For Matt Stover:
    While I thought Traitor and Shatterpoint were OK, I was rather more impressed with the RoTS novel, and Luke Skywalker & the Shadows of Mindor.

    Similarly for Stackpole, I liked I, Jedi (despite how Corran-centric it was) more than the early X-Wing novels.

    I thought Allston's later books (like his Fate of the Jedi ones) were pretty good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irbis View Post
    Yes, as someone finally bothered to take a look at the movies. Same with Executor, that 12.8 km figure was an average between true 17.1 km, and brain-dead WEG's 8 km.

    Which was pretty obvious to anyone who watched ESB even once.

    Trixie already told most reasons why WEG sucks, to me, random numbers basically anywhere (all rebel starfighters getting +2D6 to manoeuvre just because they're rebel? Y-Wings being more agile than TIE Interceptors?!?! Random sizes/prices? R2D2 being better pilot than Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel [!!!]?) was the last.
    There's your problem right there. Multiple retcons, complaining about the very thing that kick started the whole Star Wars EU thing and grumbling that a company that laid the groundwork for every technical commentary that came after was wrong. Despite them being the source of huge amounts of information.

    Here's a fact: if X-Wings didn't have a mechanical bonus over TiE fighters, then they'd have been shot down before they could do anything effective. Because of the simple fact that they were outnumbered by at least 50%, and in Jedi by a huge amount more than that.

    If you want your game to represent the things you see on screen, it has to be able to give similar results. End of story on Rebel ships being better than Imperial ones.

    All the current round of discussions say to me is, Star Wars has hit, and gone past, the point of too much bloat. There's contradictory sources on everything. There's huge amounts of backstory material for people that get on screen for literally one shot, or even just a few frames of one shot. There's an unweildy cast of characters with everyone being better than everyone else.

    It's time to throw it all out and start again. DC COmics do it every few years, it's about time Star Wars did a full reset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    Here's a fact: if X-Wings didn't have a mechanical bonus over TiE fighters, then they'd have been shot down before they could do anything effective. Because of the simple fact that they were outnumbered by at least 50%, and in Jedi by a huge amount more than that.

    If you want your game to represent the things you see on screen, it has to be able to give similar results. End of story on Rebel ships being better than Imperial ones.
    Where did Irbis say the problem was that rebel ships were better in any single way? He specifically said the issue was that Rebel fighters are move manuverable, which is generally the sole aspect in which Imperial fighters should be better than rebel fighters. The Y-wing, for example, is a bomber with heavy firepower and is, I believe, one of the sturdiest fighters around. Manuverabilty, however, is not high on it's lists of strengths. Meanwhile, the TIE interceptor is supposed to be one of the fastest and most manuverable fighters around, while also being far more fragile than a Y-wing and lacking the ability to bring the pain in the way the Y-wing can. So the way WEG seemingly handled it is in utterly rediculous.

    All the current round of discussions say to me is, Star Wars has hit, and gone past, the point of too much bloat. There's contradictory sources on everything. There's huge amounts of backstory material for people that get on screen for literally one shot, or even just a few frames of one shot. There's an unweildy cast of characters with everyone being better than everyone else.

    It's time to throw it all out and start again. DC COmics do it every few years, it's about time Star Wars did a full reset.
    That's a horrible idea. Too much good would be thrown out with the bad, and people don't like characters and stories they know and love to suddenly not exist anymore.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-01-25 at 10:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    That's a horrible idea. Too much good would be thrown out with the bad, and people don't like characters and stories they know and love to suddenly not exist anymore.
    Which is why retcons are generally a very bad idea.
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    So far, most retcons in Star Wars have been to try and ensure events in the EU are not being made "invalid" by events in the prequels that semi-contradict them.

    Like all the stuff about Jedi and families in Children of the Jedi (and several other sources)- compared to Lucas's stuff about Jedi not getting married. Retcon- Callista was a member of a splinter group- the Altisian Jedi.

    Or various other things (didn't certain retcons ensure that the rather bad series beginning with The Glove of Darth Vader, was canonical rather than impossible?)

    I'm wondering how the Jorj Car'das story- about a Bpfashi Dark Jedi and Yoda battling on Dagobah (the Dark Jedi had kidnapped him roughly 26 years before A New Hope) will be reconciled with Leland Chee's statement that Yoda's first ever visit to Dagobah was in Revenge of the Sith.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-01-25 at 11:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    Here's a fact: if X-Wings didn't have a mechanical bonus over TiE fighters, then they'd have been shot down before they could do anything effective. Because of the simple fact that they were outnumbered by at least 50%, and in Jedi by a huge amount more than that.
    Alternatively, the ships were equivalent but the Rebel pilots were superior.

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    That's the most common explanation in the EU- though another is that Rebel fighters are more "rugged" whereas Empire fighters lack both armour and shields- so they're "glass cannons".

    On the subject of canon- is it at all likely that the EU might receive a massive "decanonization"- with the events in many of the books being made invalid, and new books published with "the right events"?

    Or do you think this would be a step to far- and would alienate people even more than most of the other things Lucas gets bad press for?

    What about size and date changes? The Thrawn Trilogy republished with the correct time gaps between Honoghr's devastation and the present, but also with the number of Katana ships, and the number of cloning cylinders, multiplied by a thousand?

    Or would this just be pandering to a tiny section of the fanbase while alienating the rest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    What about size and date changes? The Thrawn Trilogy republished with the correct time gaps between Honoghr's devastation and the present, but also with the number of Katana ships, and the number of cloning cylinders, multiplied by a thousand?

    Or would this just be pandering to a tiny section of the fanbase while alienating the rest?
    That sort of thing I'd have no problem with. And while I think in the end it's making a change based on a smaller section of the fanbase, I don't think it would alienate many people. Is there really anyone who thinks that the number of Katana ships being strangely small (or stupidly small, as some would say) really adds to the thrawn trilogy in any way?
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy13a View Post
    Alternatively, the ships were equivalent but the Rebel pilots were superior.
    Problem is that Imperial Pilots are the pick of the academies with stringent requirements and the rebel pilots are a bunch of random bumpkins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Problem is that Imperial Pilots are the pick of the academies with stringent requirements and the rebel pilots are a bunch of random bumpkins.
    Except those "bumpkins" (who in several cases also went to the same academies as the Imperial pilots) often have more real flight experience as they pilot more survivable craft than cannon fodder fighters.
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