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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Thanks guys. I am trying to learn more every day, so hopefully that will help, and I was planning on the campaign after next to use the "generic classes" from UA, which ought to keep them from making those devastating builds.

    I did offer to introduce them to other systems, but they politely declined; they didn't see a need to learn another rule set when they're doing so well with what they know now...
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Your friend "Duke" is the one I'd personally see as the biggest problem, and here's why. The other two are clearly doing things that are not kosher, and that just requires a firm DM smack-down hand. (I'm getting ready to run my first game myself, and I've made my players very aware of the following guideline: If you're going to use obscure rules, combine abilities in unexpected ways, or otherwise be cheesy, tell me first. I can be swayed by the Rule of Cool as easily as the next person, and if you're upfront with me, there's a good chance I'll allow it. But if you spring it on me unexpectedly, I WILL GM-fiat it away, if only because I don't want to stop the game to read through 3 rule books to see if you're right. [Also, don't try to fast-talk your way out of alignment shifts with me. I spent way too many of my college credits in useless philosophy classes; I guarantee you I will win that debate.]) But Duke, as you describe him, is doing nothing wrong - he's just much better at the game than the people around him. Which makes it harder - you don't want to penalize him, but you also want to let other people have a chance to shine.

    Sometimes you have to play dirty. Every character has a weakness, some field in which they're not the best, or some effect that keeps them from using their most powerful stuff. Find out what that is, and abuse it shamelessly - about half the time.

    For example: in my current game, we have a character who, through a little of this and a little of that, is an absolute god when it comes to fire magic. If we're killing it with fire, she's our go-to girl - to the extent that we could realistically point her at the bad guys, then go have tea. Unfortunately, tea gets boring occasionally. So what does the GM do? He looks up every monster in the book with resistance or immunity to fire, and comes up with plausible reasons for us to run into them. Not in every combat, of course, or she'd just get frustrated and leave the game. But often enough that the rest of us get plenty of chances to take down the bad guy ourselves, while she has to/gets to explore the less-optimized aspects of her build. (But don't forget to occasionally reward that character too. When our party was attacked by a white dragon [especially vulnerable to fire], her face lit up like it was her birthday.)

    Now, she's not a huge powergamer, so that weakness was fairly obvious - but you get the idea. When presented with a min-maxed character, play to the min rather than the max.
    Our Shadowrun game is pretty much one long string of bad ideas, fueled by enthusiasm.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pisha View Post
    Unfortunately, tea gets boring occasionally.

    Get out!


    "Why can't I just let loose and go wild for a change?"
    'Because it impacts on the enjoyment of six other people' would be my answer. Making your 'friends' watch you hog the spotlight (with a character build that you didn't even make up yourself, for crying out loud!) for 4 hours a week isn't a very nice thing to do. Some people are just not team players.

    To be fair, the problem has mostly solved itself, in that the player left. It's far better that way that being in the position of him refusing to do so, and still degrading the game.

    Talk to the other players, and see if they'd be willing to do a character re-write.
    I disagree. Encouraging people who are perfectly happy to not min-max and who are enjoying the game 'as is' to min-max just to keep up with someone who loves doing it isn't going to work. It tends to alienate the 'normal' players. They come to think 'why should I turn a game that I enjoy into maths homework because of that jerk?'.

    no, he doesn't want to give me his character beforehand for inspection.
    You are the GM. Your rules, your world. If he wants to 'hide' stuff from you he's not treating the game as co-operative, and seems to have completely the wrong approach.

    we're just going to go on without him.
    Good call.

    My advice would be to play a different game system instead of D&D, and to make sure that you know the rules better than any of your players.
    I Highly recommend this course of action. It's what I do.
    Learning new rules is only a chore for players who are either slow, or who want to min-max every last drop out of the system. Most players love the chance to explore a totally new genre, and most systems are a lot easier to learn than 3.5 (NWoD, for example).

    I have to be honest: My players do min-max to a man. But they do it in a reasonable way, within the rules, not going 'silly', and they clear it all with me first. So for me, using new rules or my homebrew system is a god-send. It means that I always know more about the system than them, and can happily fiat without complaint. It also levels the playing field: A player who is horribly min-maxxy is suddenly everyone's equal when we play a new system.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    If you're going to try a different system, try d6. SOOOO simple, character generation takes about 5 minutes, and the potential for abuse is about nil.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by prufock View Post
    the potential for abuse is about nil.
    Apart from 'I'm playing a Force User', of course. That's flagrant abuse, right there!

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    Get out!
    ...It's a fair cop. (Actually, now that I think about it, I believe our wizard has proven that most combat actions become exponentially more awesome if you can perform them without spilling your tea.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    I disagree. Encouraging people who are perfectly happy to not min-max and who are enjoying the game 'as is' to min-max just to keep up with someone who loves doing it isn't going to work. It tends to alienate the 'normal' players. They come to think 'why should I turn a game that I enjoy into maths homework because of that jerk?'.
    And normally I would agree. But the OP did say that he wanted the problem player to be in the game, he just wanted to find a way to do so that wouldn't be unfair to the other players.

    The thing is, there isn't anything wrong with playing uber-powerful characters. Just like there isn't anything wrong with playing more "normal" (read: less powerful) characters. It's just a difference in play style and preference. It only becomes a problem when you have both types in the same group. In order for them to play together, someone's gotta compromise.

    I'm not saying you should make anyone min-max their character. Sometimes people chose less-powerful builds for a reason, are quite happy with them, and don't want to change them. But not always. Sometimes the characters are underpowered because the players are new to the game or simply don't know all their options. In that case, they may actually be grateful for someone sitting down with them and showing them ways to improve their character's effectiveness. (My current GM has done this once or twice, when characters have started to fall behind the party's overall power level. In each case he's been able to show the players how they can get more "bang for their buck," while still remaining true to their characters' core concept, and the players have had much more fun afterwards.) The point is that it's an option, and you won't know if it's a good option or not if you don't ask.
    Our Shadowrun game is pretty much one long string of bad ideas, fueled by enthusiasm.

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    I Highly recommend this course of action. It's what I do.
    Learning new rules is only a chore for players who are either slow, or who want to min-max every last drop out of the system. Most players love the chance to explore a totally new genre, and most systems are a lot easier to learn than 3.5 (NWoD, for example).
    Do you realize just how many generalizations about what's "normal", what "normal players" like and how to play "right" you're making without any basis in that post?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Edit: Never mind. It's all been said.
    Last edited by DwarfFighter; 2010-10-08 at 07:59 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    I Highly recommend this course of action. It's what I do.
    Learning new rules is only a chore for players who are either slow, or who want to min-max every last drop out of the system. Most players love the chance to explore a totally new genre, and most systems are a lot easier to learn than 3.5 (NWoD, for example).
    Heck, I'm an avowed optimizer, and I LOVE new rulesets. Finding new optimization potential is like christmas. The fun isn't in reusing the same tired old trick over and over, the fun is finding new and unexpected ones.

    So yeah, good solution. Telling him that if he wants to optimize more, he could help his friends optimize as well can be good. I love poking around someone else's character sheet and finding what can be boosted, and usually, so do they. Teamwork is great, and can start before character creation ever happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Do you realize just how many generalizations about what's "normal", what "normal players" like and how to play "right" you're making without any basis in that post?
    If you'd like me to caveat 'in all of my X number of years of gaming experience' to every post, I can. It's pretty safe to assume that everyone is posting from their own perspective.
    Playing with a fairly mixed crowd of gamers in a good number of games, in a university city with a lot of gamers in it does indeed give me a perceptual bias that people playing optimised chargers, flagrantly wringing every bonus out of the rules and not allowing the GM to see their character sheet are not the norm around gaming tables.

    More bias from me here: I would rather jab forks into my face repeatedly than play that kind of game.


    But the OP did say that he wanted the problem player to be in the game,
    Likewise there's a friend that I'd like to be in my games. Too bad he's such a power-gaming attention-hogging, rules-lawyering jerk.
    Some people just don't fit into some gaming groups.


    Finding new optimization potential is like christmas.
    It is. But fortunately, such rapidly learned min-maxxing is seldom as imbalanced with the rest of the group as -say- looking up blag for the world's most popular RPG on the Internet. Which is what the guy has gone and done.

    The problem with balance in 3.5 is not only that there isn't any, nor that it stems from so many sources that it's hard for 'not interested in optimising' GMs to keep track of, but also partially that it's such a well-known subject.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    If you'd like me to caveat 'in all of my X number of years of gaming experience' to every post, I can. It's pretty safe to assume that everyone is posting from their own perspective.
    Playing with a fairly mixed crowd of gamers in a good number of games, in a university city with a lot of gamers in it does indeed give me a perceptual bias that people playing optimised chargers, flagrantly wringing every bonus out of the rules and not allowing the GM to see their character sheet are not the norm around gaming tables.

    More bias from me here: I would rather jab forks into my face repeatedly than play that kind of game.
    Two separate things here. I don't see the reason for not letting the GM see your sheet. But I get bored when I'm playing with a group that doesn't optimize and doesn't let me optimize, because I feel like I'm stuck being either a one-trick pony or having a wide variety of things I can suck at.

    The trouble with the term "normal" is that it implies that anyone who isn't normal is wrong. No, that's not the dictionary definition, but it is how it's used.
    Last edited by WarKitty; 2010-10-08 at 09:25 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    More bias from me here: I would rather jab forks into my face repeatedly than play that kind of game.
    And that's cool. You don't have to play that kind of game. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong way to play, just that it's not your way to play. (I feel the same way about certain card games that my friends play. They're not bad games, I just don't like them.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    Likewise there's a friend that I'd like to be in my games. Too bad he's such a power-gaming attention-hogging, rules-lawyering jerk.
    Some people just don't fit into some gaming groups.
    Sometimes they just don't. It's a shame, but it happens. But sometimes a compromise can be worked out to where people with different play styles can still have fun together. To do so, though, you have to be willing to consider the possibility rather than just going "Your play style is bad and you should feel bad."

    I'm with you on the whole not letting the GM see your character sheet, though. That's just weird.

    GM: You're done making your character? Great! Just let me look over the sheet and we'll get you into the game!
    Player: I'm not letting you see my sheet.
    GM: ...It appears we're at an impasse.
    Our Shadowrun game is pretty much one long string of bad ideas, fueled by enthusiasm.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Two separate things here. I don't see the reason for not letting the GM see your sheet. But I get bored when I'm playing with a group that doesn't optimize and doesn't let me optimize, because I feel like I'm stuck being either a one-trick pony or having a wide variety of things I can suck at.

    The trouble with the term "normal" is that it implies that anyone who isn't normal is wrong. No, that's not the dictionary definition, but it is how it's used.
    Be thankful your not playing with my RL group.

    They blatantly dont optimize characters at all, i got involved with some online play by post games and learned how to use practical optimization, then when my RL group started a new campaign i made an optimized character because that came naturally to me then and i got yelled at for trying to break the system ~.~

    The real funny bit: the character was a glaivelock with some hellfire later on (without the binder cheese)
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    No, that's not the dictionary definition, but it is how it's used.
    I really can't be held accountable for other's interpretation of the English language, though.


    I get bored when I'm playing with a group that doesn't optimize and doesn't let me optimize
    I get bored if I'm sat around with gamers who are either VERY RP-based, or who treat RPGs like computer games. I think that rather than either forcing others to accommodate my style of play, or changing my own brain chemistry, the best thing to do is simply be choosy when selecting gaming groups.


    "Your play style is bad and you should feel bad."
    Whereas 'your play style is bad for this group' is a lot more valid and sometimes very true. Sometimes the best solution is that there is no solution (and the player should leave). Divorces exist for similar reasons.


    That's just weird.
    I was being screamed at on this board only a couple of weeks ago by someone of the opinion that a GM looking at their sheet was only doing it to 'cheat', and had no right to do so.

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    I really can't be held accountable for other's interpretation of the English language, though.
    I hardly think that's "other's interpretation." English words do come with connotations.


    I get bored if I'm sat around with gamers who are either VERY RP-based, or who treat RPGs like computer games. I think that rather than either forcing others to accommodate my style of play, or changing my own brain chemistry, the best thing to do is simply be choosy when selecting gaming groups.
    Not all of us have the luxury of choosing from a bunch of different gaming groups. Plus there's a big difference between "I want to play a game of D&D" and "I want to play D&D with my friends." If I'm playing with my friends I expect everyone to make an effort to accommodate everyone else's playstyle, even if one person is the odd one out. It's just what I'd do for a friend.




    Whereas 'your play style is bad for this group' is a lot more valid and sometimes very true. Sometimes the best solution is that there is no solution (and the player should leave). Divorces exist for similar reasons.
    +1

    I was being screamed at on this board only a couple of weeks ago by someone of the opinion that a GM looking at their sheet was only doing it to 'cheat', and had no right to do so.
    Buh?

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notreallyhere77 View Post
    One player, let's call him "Jacques" used a liberal interpretation of a feat to claim arcane casting ability so he could get into a PrC. Granted, I allowed it, having only skimmed the PrC in question, and unknowing of his plans to cast miracle without components 3/day. His characters have a tendency to maximize damage output at the expense of teamwork benefits. His characters are almost always played as CE, as in "how much will you pay me not to kill you today," but he accepts alignment shifts for actions committed. And he does follow basic rules about physics overruling RAW.

    Another player, who I will refer to as "Mr T." is similar, but does not want to follow physics if RAW would benefit him more.
    What does Physics have to do with the game?

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    I was being screamed at on this board only a couple of weeks ago by someone of the opinion that a GM looking at their sheet was only doing it to 'cheat', and had no right to do so.
    That... wha? But... I don't... huh? What is this I don't even.

    What kind of game are they playing?
    Our Shadowrun game is pretty much one long string of bad ideas, fueled by enthusiasm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    I hardly think that's "other's interpretation." English words do come with connotations.
    Which vary by region and culture. I'm on the other side of the Atlantic...


    If I'm playing with my friends I expect everyone to make an effort to accommodate everyone else's playstyle, even if one person is the odd one out. It's just what I'd do for a friend.
    It's what I'd do for most friends... except when they are being massive jerks and repeatedly spoiling every game that they step inside. At that point it becomes a case of happily seeing them down the pub, but not wanting to deal with the confrontations and arguments that result in them being in a game. It's just common sense sometimes.

    Buh?
    Quite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    Which vary by region and culture. I'm on the other side of the Atlantic...
    Point taken. Around here you typically hear "standard" or "average" when people don't intend a moral connotation.

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    I've always seen character sheets treated as public information, unless there was some particular reason to hide something from another player.

    I can't see the benefit to hiding character sheets unless it's a very "dm vs players" style game. And D&D doesn't really do that well. It's not meant to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    If you'd like me to caveat 'in all of my X number of years of gaming experience' to every post, I can. It's pretty safe to assume that everyone is posting from their own perspective.
    Playing with a fairly mixed crowd of gamers in a good number of games, in a university city with a lot of gamers in it does indeed give me a perceptual bias that people playing optimised chargers, flagrantly wringing every bonus out of the rules and not allowing the GM to see their character sheet are not the norm around gaming tables.

    More bias from me here: I would rather jab forks into my face repeatedly than play that kind of game.
    I can only say this: Optimizing everyone's character a tad does not lead to that. I find it really enhances the game experience. And honestly, if one player likes min/maxing, it's little problem to just have the others play something that more or less optimizes itself without any special work (Druid, Warblade, Crusader, Wizard - if you bother reading through the spell list, Cleric, Swordsage, etc.) and just throw few gentle hints if things aren't working out. This allows everyone to work at a higher level without really requiring much rules mastery (well, beyond what playing a caster always requires; knowing what your spells do is of course required to play one, but that doesn't change with regards to optimization). Allows the whole group to get what they want. I've yet to hear of a group that would hate their characters being efficient.

    And learning a whole new set of rules is definitely not for everybody. Many players have learned the game back when they had more freetime and now have studies + job + family to deal with; what little freetime they have they'd rather use playing something they know they'll enjoy than trying to learn a new system they may or may not like.
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    To address the original post, I would agree with some others here, that suggesting he try to min/max a terrible class might be a good solution. I *know* that I am a min/maxer, so when I play with friends, I tend to play bards. I can optimize the hell out of that character, but generally all that does is make the other players go, "Huh, I guess the bard isn't useless." Nobody complains of it being overpowered.

    Or, I will play a cleric -- which yes, can be the most overpowered class in the game, but which I play as a buffer. So I optimize on being good at powering up everyone else. I get my fix min/maxing, and the players all use that to be more awesome at what they do.

    But really I wanted to post another more insidious idea. That is, most min/maxers are optimizing for combat. And so they've just dumped on anything that isn't combat-related. And what does that mean? They're heavily dependent upon others for things like talking, negotiations, traps, working allies in a town, diplomacy, gathering rumors, motivating a church full of believers, etc.

    So what happens if the session is about rescuing a town right in the path of a tarrasque? The group has mere hours before it may arrive, how will they save people? Even if the problem player *wants* to optimize the solution, there is little chance he will teleport the entire town out of the way, which leaves everyone else a chance to contribute.

    You might say, "Roll for initiative. We won't be acting in true rounds, however. Instead, we'll go in order, and each player will get 5 minutes of my time to accomplish as much as possible before I move on to see what the next player can accomplish."

    Or perhaps the challenge for the evening is healing. The town came under attack by a very powerful wizard (off-stage, the players don't get to interact with that part), and now as the PCs enter the town they see huge suffering. The town mayor sees these adventurers with their ridiculous weapons and slinging around gold pieces as if they were nothing, and he brings them to the local church, wherein the one low-level cleric is tapped out, and cannot even cover all the wounded people with heal checks. So suddenly it's about how many spells they will cast, how long they'll do heal checks and full-term care, etc. The most successful PCs will gain rumors, places to stay in an emergency, prestige, etc. But there will be far too many wounded for 1 player to heal alone.

    Maybe even make the players do a triage, and part of the game will be determining who has the most to gain from their help, because not everyone will live. (You know? Set a ton of NPCs at -1 to -4, and falling. The players have at most 9 rounds until the NPCs hit -10 and die. Each PC will therefore have 9 chances to save a life (or many lives, if the PC is a cleric with a mass cure or something). They'll have to juggle movement issues with the time cost of stabilizing someone. They'll want desperately to do spot checks to determine if someone is dead before they get to them, so they don't have to waste a round moving toward a lost cause. And so on.)

    Or lastly, for example, consider an otherworldly roadside market that plane shifts into existence for an hour. This market has special rules. Nothing can be had at standard PHB/DMG prices. But instead, the prices swing wildly either way. Maybe have a dozen merchants of planar origin -- Djinni or other weirdness. Pre-determine each merchant's predilections. One might automatically give a 10% discount to dwarves. Another, a 25% penalty to men. And so on. Then do 4th-edition-like skill challenges. Charisma rolls, rushed diplomacy rolls, +-2 modifiers depending upon what lame/clever thing the player says. Don't let the players look things up in the DMG. They need to use Appraise rolls if they can, right then & there. Again, go round-robin on a timer so that no single player can dominate. At the end of the game session, maybe each player negotiated/bartered for an item or two.

    This kind of stuff is endless. You can think of lots of D&D-ish stuff to do that isn't combat and cannot be one-shotted. Suddenly that min/maxing player will be less dominant. I mean, in combat, sure, still dominant. But if that's only 25% of the game and the other 75% becomes fun non-combat adventures, well, your other players will reclaim some time in the spotlight, and start having fun again. At the same time, the min/maxer will still have all the stuff he wanted, so yay for him.

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Depends. What if he Min/Max for healing: as a Cleric you still have other spells meaning you don't be less dominant.
    Although Min/Maxing for healing isn't optimal, it could still be done.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Depends. What if he Min/Max for healing: as a Cleric you still have other spells meaning you don't be less dominant.
    Although Min/Maxing for healing isn't optimal, it could still be done.
    So? Then there will be other areas that the player is weak in -- that's kinda the definition of min/max. So whatever that player is good at, great, let him or her be great in that area. Just don't make your game about only that area. If it turns out the player has min/maxed his healing abilities, well, first of all then we wouldn't be here. No DM nor player would ever be like "Dude, you healed the PCs, you suck." But assuming that was at issue for some weird reason, then fine, make the game about more than healing. He or she cannot maximize skills in everything so there are bound to be areas that other players would excel at. Pay attention to the other players. Give them things to do that cater to their strengths.

    If you have bards & rogues, maybe espionage. Maybe theft, stealth. Maybe kidnapping. These are things that the healer wouldn't be good at.

    Maybe put them in the middle of a town square and say, "This is the busiest day of the year at this market. Everyone is here; the city is bursting with coin, tons of guarded chests line the market stalls, and as your rogue can see, the people are ripe for the picking." Suddenly there are 3 hours of the game dedicated to slinking around, sleight of hand, distractions, perhaps even the bard is erasing the memory of people who catch on, or perhaps he's using disguise to impersonate a city watchman, so that if someone catches his buddy, he can trick the people into letting his buddy go.

    Or buy a copy of 3 Dragon Ante -- a card game you can get at amazon.com, which allows players to integrate their PC's skills into the play. If the player's character has 5 ranks in Sleight of Hand, well, he can take an extra card to represent the advantage of being so adept at fooling people. Or if the PC has 5 ranks in intimidate, he gets to take a coin out of the pot to represent his skills at making bluffers back down. And so on. And then make one of your D&D sessions about the card game. "Guys, the inn you're staying at is having its seasonal gambling night. High stakes. You in?" Poof, another D&D session that is not about healing, not about combat, not what your players expected.

    But the point isn't to fixate on an example, because of course a min/maxer can optimize for any single example. The point is to take the general idea of diversifying your D&D activities so that no one player can dominate all the various scenarios you create. Learn what unique powers each character has, and then be sure that such unique powers get a chance to be used.

    You don't need to have a lame player to do this. It's good advice for any table full of role players.
    Last edited by aboyd; 2010-10-10 at 05:53 PM.

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    I mean I gotta wonder this too. Do most people not give the DM their characters to inspect before playing? Or do most DMs just not realize how bad things will get? Most games I've played in the DMs are more than willing to make you ret con something if we suddenly discover its broken. You don't simply "get away with it" and ruin the game.
    my groups have never been required to submit their characters to me prior to play, this is partly because we've yet to have anyone even capable of powergaming or munchkinism (either do to a lack of resources, ability, or will) and thus I do not request them, this state of affairs will continue whenever I sit behind the screen until someone shows me I can't trust them with that, at which point they will be required to submit every build to me in advance, which will most likely be put up here for a 'cheese examination'

    that said
    I make it perfectly clear to my players that I reserve to smite anything and everything at my own discretion...

    followed by making sure they know I consider my primary duty to be making sure they have fun.....



    /ramble, my 2 CP

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    And learning a whole new set of rules is definitely not for everybody.
    It may be a lot easier than learning D&D 'properly', though. I'd rate -say- WoD or d6 Star Wars far easier to learn than grasping the ins-and-outs of grappling, turning, size changes and all the old chuff in the 3.5 rules.


    most min/maxers are optimizing for combat.
    Maybe ones who have played a lot of D&D, but players with a wider base of experience in games that are so squarely centred in combat tend to go for broader min-max goals. In a recent Japan-base game we had a player in the party who was pretty useless at everything that didn't involve getting the party from point A to point B on the map as quickly and safely and as well-fed and least tired as possible.


    OT bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Point taken. Around here you typically hear "standard" or "average" when people don't intend a moral connotation.
    Americans tend to plump for [unnecessarily, in the eyes of many English people] complex words in casual conversation. cf 'Carbonated beverage' vs 'fizzy drink'. I do quite a bit of writing in my spare time, and whereas if I needed to use a word akin to 'normal' in an article several times; I'd go for variations such as 'standard' or 'average', it would be considered abnormal for those to be used in isolation, or as 'first choice'.

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by big teej View Post
    my groups have never been required to submit their characters to me prior to play, this is partly because we've yet to have anyone even capable of powergaming or munchkinism (either do to a lack of resources, ability, or will) and thus I do not request them, this state of affairs will continue whenever I sit behind the screen until someone shows me I can't trust them with that, at which point they will be required to submit every build to me in advance, which will most likely be put up here for a 'cheese examination'
    Woah, that's a long sentence. Yeah, I've never required players to have me approve their chars(in RL games). I give them the rules for char creation, and they're trusted to follow them.

    However, character sheets are not considered exceptionally private. If I wanted to see something on them, I'd just ask. Once or twice, I've gathered everyones sheets for things like collecting AC, spot modifier, etc for general use in combat. Never been an issue.

    It's not that optimization is the problem...it's the player not willing to work with others that's the problem.

    Edit: Yeah, I feel that people jump too quickly to assume judgement. I pretty much assume that EVERYONE is talking about their personal experiences whenever they mention "standard" or "average", unless they specify differently.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2010-10-11 at 09:26 AM.
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyx View Post
    OT bit:



    Americans tend to plump for [unnecessarily, in the eyes of many English people] complex words in casual conversation. cf 'Carbonated beverage' vs 'fizzy drink'. I do quite a bit of writing in my spare time, and whereas if I needed to use a word akin to 'normal' in an article several times; I'd go for variations such as 'standard' or 'average', it would be considered abnormal for those to be used in isolation, or as 'first choice'.
    Huh. Using "normal" for all of those would seem to me to be woefully imprecise and ripe for miscommunication. Oh well, to each their own. Although in my area "fizzy drink" refers to alcohol.
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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    If a difficult player quits, then what's the problem?
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

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    Default Re: difficult player, what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    If a difficult player quits, then what's the problem?
    When you're running the campaign precisely for said difficult player's sake as a good friend, it becomes a problem.
    Last edited by Scow2; 2010-10-11 at 10:06 AM.

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