[3.5] How to Make the Fighter Kill The Party?

[Dralnu]

I'm the DM and the level 7 party is: barbarian2/warblade5, rogue5/assassin2, souct7, and favored soul 7.

I thought it would be cool for the next encounter to force the warblade to attack his squishy allies. Are there any spells or level-appropriate monsters that I can use to pull this off?

Also, if anyone has done something like this before, what was the party's reaction? Did they think it was cool or did they hate it?

[blackjack217]

I'm the DM and the level 7 party is: barbarian2/warblade5, rogue5/assassin2, souct7, and favored soul 7.

I thought it would be cool for the next encounter to force the warblade to attack his squishy allies. Are there any spells or level-appropriate monsters that I can use to pull this off?

Also, if anyone has done something like this before, what was the party's reaction? Did they think it was cool or did they hate it?

mirror of opposition. Other ways will probably tick off the warblade.

[Saph]

Confusion will do the job. It's a level 4 spell, so a 7th-level enemy caster can use it. Note that it's up to the luck of the dice which PCs will pass, which PCs will run away, and which will start trying to kill their teammates, but this is probably the fairest way to do it anyway.

I've found it leads to very entertaining sessions for all concerned, provided the players know each other well and can take a joke. :P

[Shenanigans]

Well, anything with some kind of mind-control and a reputation for using it (Illithid, Aboleth, some evil outsiders) or a caster of some type. The biggest problem is that if your PC's are experienced, they'll be able to counteract the control fairly quickly with something like, say, protection from X. This means you either have to take out the favored soul pretty quickly, or perhaps disable the rest of the party (say, with an illithid mind blast.)

From the enjoyment perspective, my experience is that this kind of thing is generally pretty fun for the one being controlled, less fun for the ones being attacked, but overall can be an exciting and memorable event. Be careful, though, because "exciting and memorable" can quickly turn into "no-fun, no chance TPK."

[Diarmuid]

Unless you've worked something out ahead of time with the person who will be forced into this role, then as Saph said this usually creates a lot of animosity among the party for each other and for the person involved to the DM.

As for ways to do it...there are many spells that could do something like this, but Dominate Person is probably the most level appropriate way to do it based on your 7th lvl party.

[Aharon]

Yes to confusion. Used it and liked it. A Word of Chaos does it without save, in case the Warblade has that maneuver that substitutes concentration check for a will save (Not sure which level that one was).

Obviously, a 13th level opponent would be overkill, but depending on your stance regarding enemies using consumables, their foe could have a scroll.

[Saph]

As for ways to do it...there are many spells that could do something like this, but Dominate Person is probably the most level appropriate way to do it based on your 7th lvl party.

I find Dominate a bit hard to use, due both to the 1-round casting time and due to the "against their nature" clause. It often leads to arguments about what a character's "nature" is, so I prefer Confusion since it's much more straightforward.

Plus, with Dominate the target's a puppet. With Confusion you can let the players roll the percentile dice and interpret the results their own way. That tends to be more fun for all concerned, since the player's still playing their own character, they're just bat**** insane.

[Greenish]

maneuver that substitutes concentration check for a will save (Not sure which level that one was).

Moment of Perfect Mind is Diamond Mind 1, so he probably has it.

[Tyndmyr]

Unless you've worked something out ahead of time with the person who will be forced into this role, then as Saph said this usually creates a lot of animosity among the party for each other and for the person involved to the DM.

I enjoy things like a cleverly worded suggestion. The target player usually enjoys it as well, and frequently uses it as a way to amplify existing character conflicts. It's not particularily good for party cohesion, but it can be a blast. And if people can blame evil magic later, it helps with lasting effects.

[Diarmuid]

The against their nature just gives the a new save with a bonus.

From my experiences, when the PC is given explicit instructions to kill his buddy, that seems to go better than when the PC is responsible for some of the interpretation as to who gets attacked and how lethal they are in doing so.

IMO, it lessens the possibility of hurt feelings and inter party relationships being damaged. All groups handle these things differently I'm sure, just giving my experience.

[Dralnu]

My group are all friends that have known each other for years if that helps any. We've never had a real argument in our games, only in-character ones. Our sessions are always lighthearted. I guess they should be fine then. I'm just always a bit cautious when I do something that could take away a person's control for a certain period of time.

Confusion looks pretty fun in general. If the caster uses invisibility to make sure he isn't attacked, is it considered an offensive spell and make him reappear?

Word of Chaos probably wouldn't do it. Dominate Person absolutely would, and since it takes a full round action and I think the Favored Soul has spellcraft it might raise the tension to stop the caster before it lands, especially if there are a lot of mooks blocking the way. I'm not sure if he has a Protection from X spell though, if he does then good on him. But yeah, I don't want animosity in the group.

I actually planned on having Illithids in the campaign, but not for a couple more sessions. Where's mirror of opposition from?

[Keld Denar]

Ghost is probably the easiest way. Its not that outside of their CR, and they have an ability that functions like Magic Jar. Simply try and try again until the guy fails.

Note, he may feel targeted by this tactic, so be prepared to deal with hurt feelings...

[Aharon]

Unless their adversary has weird concepts on who he confuses, he will become visible

For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)

Mirror of Opposition is in the DMG and the SRD.

[Ravens_cry]

The mirror is probably the best bet as it creates an evil opposite under your control rather then taking control away from a player. To do so may seem 'fun' for you, but hardly ever so for the player of that character.

[Frosty]

I like Mirror of Opposition as well.

[blackjack217]

I like Mirror of Opposition as well.

until they loot it and use it against the Big Bad, so it shatters or something. Or you could use it as a recurring trap.

[Dralnu]

I wouldn't take over his character, just tell him to switch targets from the bad guy to an ally. It's not as bad I think, but I see your point.

Hmmm.. Mirror of opposition inside a watery temple/dungeon?

[Tyndmyr]

I wouldn't take over his character, just tell him to switch targets from the bad guy to an ally. It's not as bad I think, but I see your point.

Definitely not as bad. Especially if you leave open questions such as how he attacks his ally or allies, and who he attacks first.

Spells that entirely take over the character give the DM one more character to run, and the player one less. Unless you're in an unusual game, where the player is running multiple characters, this generally leaves the player bored at best.

[Ruinix]

Also, if anyone has done something like this before, what was the party's reaction? Did they think it was cool or did they hate it?

i don't understand. u want to provoke a TPK ?! is that what are u looking for?

[Alleine]

With Confusion you can let the players roll the percentile dice and interpret the results their own way. That tends to be more fun for all concerned, since the player's still playing their own character, they're just bat**** insane.

This. Confusion works great. It happened to the party barbarian a few times in the last campaign I was in and we had fun with it. He still rolled all the dice, and enthusiastically rolled them when attacking the rest of us. There was also a bit of terror as I scrambled to negate it and everyone tried to stay alive. We're all friends though and have been playing for a little while so its not like anyone got real upset, not even the guy who died.

[Tyndmyr]

I think he means "kill the party" in a non-literal fashion. A TPK caused by a party member is generally not welcomed. At best, the member causing the killing might be entertained, but the others probably won't be fond of it.

Inter-party conflict can be fun, but it can also go bad. You generally want to manage it so it doesn't eclipse party vs other stuff conflicts, anyway.

[Keld Denar]

"Dude, remember the time when Jim's Warblade got Magic Jared and he ran around trying to kill us? Ryan's Wizard ended up enlarging himself and grappling Jim's character. It was hillarious!"

[Ravens_cry]

until they loot it and use it against the Big Bad, so it shatters or something. Or you could use it as a recurring trap.

Just figure some way of keeping it out of party hands. Have the doppelgänger smash it after they step out, or something. But basically saying "You don't get to play today" should only be used under extreme circumstances.

[Keld Denar]

But basically saying "You don't get to play today" should only be used under extreme circumstances.

Its a special Mirror of Opposition with only 1 charge?

[subject42]

I ran a session where our resident shifter psywar/warshaper got nailed with a dominate person. It was pretty hilarious because the BBEG pointed at the rest of the party and directed the PC to "keep them busy".

She "kept them busy" by hurling the entire party off of the top of the tower where the fight was happening, knowing that the wizard had feather fall and fly prepared.

The fight then turned into an airborne brawl with some characters flying, some floating around acting as artillery, and some actively jumping on debris and other players to climb up and attack the bad guy.

So yeah, dominate effects? They're awesome as long as you give your players just a little wiggle room.

[Dralnu]

I don't mean a TPK, that would be awful. I've never even killed a character yet in my 15 or so sessions of DM'ing. Just want them to attack each other for fun.

I think I'll use Confusion in the next encounter when they ambush a dwarven caravan. When they come up against wizardy types I'll bust out Dominate Person and say something like "attack them."

[mabriss lethe]

Illusions might be nice. Make the party all look like experience pinatas enemies. Then everyone has a chance to mess with each other.

[amaranth69]

Umber hulks worked for our DM in the return to the temple of elemental evil. The barbarian, fighter, and rogue (me) all failed their saves. Then, to make matters even better, the random effect rolls worked out in his favor as well. The barbarian rolled babble incoherently every round, which we still give him crap about. The fighter and I both ran on the first round in randomly determined different directions. Then we proceeded to attack the nearest creature. None of the party was killed, but the DM loved it.

[Dralnu]

Illusions might be nice. Make the party all look like experience pinatas enemies. Then everyone has a chance to mess with each other.

Hmm, how exactly would you pull that off effectively?

The suggesting did just spark an idea in my mind.. What about a glorious bastard BBEG (in this case, BBGG)? A caster that doesn't directly lay a finger on the party, but instead tries to get themselves to kill each other. Dominate Person, Confusion, Backbiter, Backlash, Baleful Transposition, Fugue (especially evil if you can make a 40+ DC Perform), gotta be more spells out there too. Invisibility, Mirror Image, Displacement, etc could all frustrate the party even more. And he's gotta be a gnome to rub it in.

Ooooh, I'm setting to work on that one now.

[Ruinix]

1st off, be absolutly SURE of no one get kill ust for fun, cause if is just for ur fun i ensure you that's the way it lead to say "to hell with this" and leave the table.

then.

just put a trap with a trap inside. put something in wich ur objective, let say the barbarian, it might be extra interested/attracted to aproach and fall in the trap.
then, the trap just trigger a dominate/confusion/ilusion spell or all together :p


but again, do it with some meaning of the plot or campaing or what ever, cause do something like this just because can easily annoy everyone.