Prone, Helpless, Coup de Grace... Rules, rules rules...

[Rayek4eq]

Hello!

I have a few questions regarding this character build of mine. I've built this character before, and his techniques worked, but I don't think the DM really cared too much. The new game I'm a part of seems a bit more stick-to-the-book-ish, and I wanted to check a few things before I started rolling this guy up.

The basic premise is that I trip an opponent with a Scythe and throw either a net or a Tanglefoot Bag on them (made much easier within a round with Improved Trip). Because the opponent is both Prone and entangled at this point, assuming I pull it off, is it considered "helpless", rather, is it open for a coup de grace on my next turn if it fails to bust out?

I'm playing under 3.5 rules, if that makes a difference.

Another question, a bit unrelated, is... if this works, how else besides a net and a Tanglefoot Bag can someone be entangled? I know there are a few spells, but I'm looking for simple solutions that a fighter or similar non-spellcaster might be able to employ at a moment's notice. I've been searching, but these are the only two I can find.

Thanks!

[SurlySeraph]

No, that doesn't make them helpless. It makes them very easy to hit, but certainly not helpless. They need to be unconscious, paralyzed, asleep, or otherwise completely incapacitated for that.

[Lev]

You're using the scythe 1 handed or what?

[Skorj]

The detailed rules on helplessness are in the SRD.

[Rayek4eq]

No, that doesn't make them helpless. It makes them very easy to hit, but certainly not helpless. They need to be unconscious, paralyzed, asleep, or otherwise completely incapacitated for that.

Thanks. I was getting far too excited. Is there a simple way to do this in battle for a non-spellcaster? Make them helpless, I mean. And even if it doesn't work, what other ways can I entangle?

[Rayek4eq]

The detailed rules on helplessness are in the SRD.

I was actually reading this, and was more confused by "held" or "bound", but now I suppose "bound" means with a rope or something other than nets or sticky goo.

[Boci]

Thanks. I was getting far too excited. Is there a simple way to do this in battle for a non-spellcaster? Make them helpless, I mean. And even if it doesn't work, what other ways can I entangle?

Reducing a stat to 0 will make them helpless (except for con - that kills them), and there are ways to get a vermin compoanion who you cn milk for poison in drows of the underdark I believe.

[Rayek4eq]

Reducing a stat to 0 will make them helpless (except for con - that kills them), and there are ways to get a vermin compoanion who you cn milk for poison in drows of the underdark I believe.

Ha. That doesn't seem simple enough. Well, I suppose I'll just be a master tripper.

[tyckspoon]

Ha. That doesn't seem simple enough. Well, I suppose I'll just be a master tripper.

Helplessness is intentionally rather hard to cause. Unless you're a spellcaster; you can do it with level 2/3 spells. But non-casters? Nah. Maybe if you can get a lot of poison that causes unconsciousness or paralysis.

[Lhurgyof]

Thanks. I was getting far too excited. Is there a simple way to do this in battle for a non-spellcaster? Make them helpless, I mean. And even if it doesn't work, what other ways can I entangle?

There's a feat in Oriental Adventures, where if you pin somebody in a grapple for one whole round, they need to make a Fort save or fall unconscience for 1d3 rounds. Pretty cool feat.

[SurlySeraph]

Ha. That doesn't seem simple enough. Well, I suppose I'll just be a master tripper.

Here's the Poison Handbook. You can do pretty well with poison if you work at it. Usually you want a) Drow Sleep Poison to coup-de-grace with, b) something that does Con damage to kill things with, or c) Int, Cha, or Wis damage for casters. The issues are getting the DCs high enough to be useful (doable, but you *do* have to do it), applying it fast enough (you can carry a bunch of weapons or projectiles pre-poisoned if you can't get way to apply poison as a swift action), and above all price (buying poisons at the listed price becomes way too expensive very quickly).

But hey, tripping expertise always works well.

[Rayek4eq]

Yeah. The character's pretty beefy already, even without the coup de grace aspect. Still would be pretty cool...

Also, I specifically asked this DM if he's be OK with me rolling up a Psychic Warrior and he said something akin to "Stick with the PHB... But I want people to have fun..." So searching other rulebooks out for random feats doesn't seem like his style. Although I figured that most of the Psi-stuff for the Psychic Warrior is based on character and weapon improvements, and none of it really affects the game as a whole, so I'd much rather stick to the ESH and the PHB.

As opposed to trip attacks, though, there's Stomp for fist level PWs which is good for making grunts prone for a while. And, as far as venom goes, there's Truevenom Weapon, but it's a power I can't really use too early, and it does CON damage, which is great, just not exactly what I need if I wanted a coup de grace. One thing that sucks, kinda, is that I can't Graft Weapon with a Scythe because it's two-handed; this sucks because If I could, I could make touch attacks with it ;)

Edit: Forgot about Prevenom Weapon, Level 1 PW Power. Still a level 1 power at heart, but powerful enough for early level ability-damage... BONUS!

[Rixx]

Grapple, pin, tie up. Tied up creatures are helpless.

[jpreem]

As a noncaster it's tricky. Try to wear down one of your enemies stats to 0.
Poisons help, also there are some magical items and special abilities that give stat damage.( Crippling strike, wounding weapon).
Tanglefoot bags and nets give dex penalties. I guess if you have enogh dex penalties then it should make you as helpless as when you got stat drained.
I don't know if entaglement conditions from different sources stack. ( You can discuss it with your dm) If they do stack then you can throw a net and a tanglefoot bag on someone who is targeted by and entangle spell then target him with dex poisoned weapons. That should make him rather helpess in a jiffy.

[Snake-Aes]

As a noncaster it's tricky. Try to wear down one of your enemies stats to 0.
Poisons help, also there are some magical items and special abilities that give stat damage.( Crippling strike, wounding weapon).
Tanglefoot bags and nets give dex penalties. I guess if you have enogh dex penalties then it should make you as helpless as when you got stat drained.
I don't know if entaglement conditions from different sources stack. ( You can discuss it with your dm) If they do stack then you can throw a net and a tanglefoot bag on someone who is targeted by and entangle spell then target him with dex poisoned weapons. That should make him rather helpess in a jiffy.

All they do is cause the entangle condition. It doesn't stack with itself.
Grapple, pin and tie is a fun one. Otherwise it's just easier to tear the hp down or sneak around.

[jpreem]

From core - tanglefoot bag -4 dex, followed by a stab from a spell storing weapon with bestow curse (-6 dex), covered with your favorite dex poison ( depending on the money available).
Definetly not the most optimal use for your resources but sounds somewhat fun for me, and there should be quite a lot of creatures with dex 10 or less.
( also those monsters who have it a lot, tend to use it for their attacks with weapon finesse and have armor bonus from dex, so even when you don't make thing like this helpless you will severely damage it's combat capabilities)

Edit: just browsed SRD. Adult dragons and younger are large and smaller so tanglefoot bags should work on them. Also they have 10 Dex

[Diarmuid]

A Tanglefoot Bag doesnt actually reduce their dexterity so I'm pretty sure that part of your example doesnt work.

Ability score penalties are different than ability damage.

[Quietus]

There's a feat in Oriental Adventures, where if you pin somebody in a grapple for one whole round, they need to make a Fort save or fall unconscience for 1d3 rounds. Pretty cool feat.

This got reprinted in Complete Warrior, if I'm not mistaken.

[jpreem]

I don't really know how it is by raw. ID rule it would work though in my games. You know it's like there might be two reaasons for you not to be able to move a stone block : a - weight is too great b . You are too weak. But what matters is the outcome you are not able to move the stone block.
Same with this entanglement stuff - you are too tied up to move yourself very well. And in the end you cant move yourself at all and so are helpless.
In this example tanglefoot bag or net is like making stone block heavier and curse is making you weaker - end result still the same.

[Douglas]

A Tanglefoot Bag doesnt actually reduce their dexterity so I'm pretty sure that part of your example doesnt work.

When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity

Sure looks like it does to me.

Ability score penalties are different than ability damage.

Yes, but that's not really relevant here. They stack (provided they have different sources), and they are capable of reducing an ability score to 0. Reduce any one ability score to 0, no matter how you do it, and you have a helpless target that you can coup de grace.

The difference is in how they're removed, whether multiple applications of the same source stack, and whether certain immunities work.

[Diarmuid]

Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.

The DMG specifies that "Effective ability score reduction" is different from "ability score loss", and the only losing all points in an ability will cause the various effects listed for the various ability scores.

[Douglas]

The DMG specifies that "Effective ability score reduction" is different from "ability score loss", and the only losing all points in an ability will cause the various effects listed for the various ability scores.

It also specifies how it is different - specifically, that "effective ability score reduction" disappears when its source runs out of duration. While the duration lasts, there is no difference in the effects.

[Diarmuid]

The book states "IF ability loss >= ability THEN suffer results on table"

There's nothing that says "IF ability loss + ability reduction >= ability THEN suffer results on table".

I realise this is an easy/logical interpretation, but it's still an interpretation and RAW.

[Rayek4eq]

It's strange to me, as I'm reading further, that being prone doesn't neg DEX at all... I would have thought a creature lying on it's back would have less chance to defend itself or hop around.

[Douglas]

The book states "IF ability loss >= ability THEN suffer results on table"

There's nothing that says "IF ability loss + ability reduction >= ability THEN suffer results on table".

I realise this is an easy/logical interpretation, but it's still an interpretation and RAW.

A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

Yes, there is a statement following that sentence that says ability damage is different from penalties, but that statement also says that the difference is that penalties go away when their cause does. The statements about what happens when an ability score hits 0 are completely unqualified.

[Greenish]

It's strange to me, as I'm reading further, that being prone doesn't neg DEX at all... I would have thought a creature lying on it's back would have less chance to defend itself or hop around.

That's what the -4 to hit and AC represents.

[Starbuck_II]

It's strange to me, as I'm reading further, that being prone doesn't neg DEX at all... I would have thought a creature lying on it's back would have less chance to defend itself or hop around.

You'd be penalizing snakes too much.

[Diarmuid]

A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

Yes, there is a statement following that sentence that says ability damage is different from penalties, but that statement also says that the difference is that penalties go away when their cause does. The statements about what happens when an ability score hits 0 are completely unqualified.

I suppose the fact that the section about ability reduction is under the heading ability score loss could imply that the reductions count as loss and simply come back differently, though it seems to set up a bit of an odd scenario where you somehow have a con penalty after taking con dmg, you die, and then your con comes back. Are you now alive again?

This specific sort of example is why I saw the ability loss and abiltiy penalty as different entities, but I guess if you were to cast waterbreathing on someone and they died on land...even if you then dismissed the waterbreathing they're still dead.*

I accede the point.


*assuming in this instance that waterbreathing only allows you to breath underwater

[Fouredged Sword]

I was under the impression that penelties cannot reduce a score to less than 1. I don't have a raw reading to say this (I am afb), but many spells and fell weaken all have that clause. I would look into that and see if there is a generic ruleing in a book somewhere.

Ie: I have a dex of 10. I take 4 dex damage, leaving me with 6. I get cursed aplying a -6 penelty, leaving me with 1 becuse the penelty can't make me lower than 1. I get another 4 dex damage, leaving me still at 1, as the penelty still can force me into 0 dex. I take another 4 dex damage and am paralized, as my dex is 0.

That is how I have always read the rules.

Though if you are a tripper, I would suggest str damage as you are doing touch attacks and thus don't need to worry to much about hitting. Str damage will render your oponent unable to stand back up if you lower his str so he can't carry his carry weight. And it makes him hit lighter and less oftine.

[Starbuck_II]

I was under the impression that penelties cannot reduce a score to less than 1. I don't have a raw reading to say this (I am afb), but many spells and fell weaken all have that clause. I would look into that and see if there is a generic ruleing in a book somewhere.

Penalties can't directly reduce you to 1.
Nothing says a penaltized stat can't be damaged.

Or are you saying the cure for a damaged score of 0 is a penalty? Bring it to 1?