Sneak Attack Swordsage in 3/3.5?

[Nocturnum]

I'm playing a 3/3.5 homebrewed campaign and the idea I have for a character is a Swordsage with sneak attack progression and Iaijutsu Focus.

A few things to note;
*I can use material from any 3/3.5 book, but the Errata is being ignored and I can't reference anything from the Dragon Magazines or the SRD, unless it's as written in an actual book.
*Currently, multiclass XP penalties and favored classes are being honored.
*It's also basically a poverty game. We don't get much loot from our encounters, mostly just gear that is of no use to me and no place to sell it. So for Gear, I will be relying on Lvl 1 gear for awhile.
*Ability Scores are being rolled for, so I can't plan a point-buy scheme. High stats Dex and Cha, then Int, Con and Wis (Swordsage Wis to AC @2nd?), I guess.
*LA is being ignored. LA races are on a case-by-case basis, and the DM will dillute anything he deems too powerful. He already approved the Dark template for Humans, however.
*Edit: Psionics are also off-limits

So what I'm thinking so far... is to start 'Dark' Human Unarmed Swordsage. Crapton of skillpoints at first level, 2 feats to start, boosts to Hide and Move Silently, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Unarmed Strike. Good stuff. I want also to make good use of a Spiked Chain, if feasible. Thinking about taking Able Learner and Adaptive Style at first, and Discipline Focus (Shadowhand weapon focus). Then;

Swashbuckler (for Weapon Finesse and BAB mostly at this level)
Rogue (1D6 SA, and I'll take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain))
Swordsage again
Samurai (Access to Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill and full BAB)
Swashbuckler (Daring Outlaw at this level = 2D6 SA now)
Swordsage again
Rogue (for Evasion and another BAB)
Nightsong Enforcer (take Improved Initiative here to qualify, 3D6 SA and another BAB)
Swordsage again
Samurai (another BAB, a bonus feat (thinking Quick Draw or Skill Focus (Iaijutsu Focus)) - Need this to be 2 before next, to avoid xp penalty
Swashbuckler (more BAB and 4D6 SA now, Insightful Strike, Shadow Blade at this level?)
Swordsage again



Thats as far as I've got, and I'm still not sure how happy I am about it. As it is though, I gain Sneak Attack dice every third level, a new maneuver (of level equal to swordsage level, i.e 2nd level maneuvers at 2nd swordsage, 3rd at 3rd, etc.) at first and every third after, Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill and better BAB progression overall than a pure Swordsage would get.

Obviously, I'll take Assassin's Stance when I can, but with this build, that will be CL 13. I was thinking 10x/10 Swordsage, so I can still get 8th level maneuvers at CL 20. I don't think I have much hope for a decent SA Swordsage build AND 9th level maneuvers (there's also a decent chance CL 20 will never happen as the DM isn't horribly dedicated.) I also wanted to work a Cleric dip in there for Knowledge and Trickery Devotion, but with the XP penalty, it would have to be a 2-level dip and it would have to be before my third level of Swashbuckler. I want to work Craven in there as well, but I couldn't find room in the first 13 levels.

Some things I was unsure on;
*I ASSUMED the rule to be, that your skill points MUST be spent upon gaining them, but I cannot seem to source that. If you don't HAVE to spend all of your skill points every level, I could save quite a few from first to help out later on. So if anyone can reference something stating such is impossible, I'd like to know.
*Does a Trip attempt count as an Attack? As such, Does Weapon Finesse allow me to sub DexMod for Trip attempts? I really like the Spiked chain, it's Finessable, it's a Shadow Hand weapon, it's a reach weapon that also threatens adjacent squares. I want to make good use of it though, and tripping is pretty useful.
*Related, can a Spiked Chain be Quick Drawn to qualify for an Iaijutsu Focus strike?


I guess I'm just looking for input on what I've got so far and/or suggestions on what might work better.

[gorfnab]

*I ASSUMED the rule to be, that your skill points MUST be spent upon gaining them, but I cannot seem to source that. If you don't HAVE to spend all of your skill points every level, I could save quite a few from first to help out later on. So if anyone can reference something stating such is impossible, I'd like to know.

From the SRD

Each skill point you spend on a class skill gets you 1 rank in that skill. Class skills are the skills found on your character’s class skill list. Each skill point you spend on a cross-class skill gets your character 1/2 rank in that skill. Cross-class skills are skills not found on your character’s class skill list. (Half ranks do not improve your skill check, but two 1/2 ranks make 1 rank.) You can’t save skill points to spend later.

*Does a Trip attempt count as an Attack? As such, Does Weapon Finesse allow me to sub DexMod for Trip attempts? I really like the Spiked chain, it's Finessable, it's a Shadow Hand weapon, it's a reach weapon that also threatens adjacent squares. I want to make good use of it though, and tripping is pretty useful.

The attack part of a trip attempt is an attack and can be finessed, however the check following the trip attack is Strength based and is not considered an attack and therefore not finesse-able.
From the SRD

TRIP

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.

Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.

Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

*Related, can a Spiked Chain be Quick Drawn to qualify for an Iaijutsu Focus strike?

Any weapon can be quick drawn as long as you have the Quick Draw feat. The thing is you can't "Quick Sheath" since sheathing a weapon is a Move Action and also since there is no feat that I know of that will allow you "Quick Sheath" a weapon.

QUICK DRAW [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).

Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.

Special: A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

[Nocturnum]

From the SRD



The attack part of a trip attempt is an attack and can be finessed, however the check following the trip attack is Strength based and is not considered an attack and therefore not finesse-able.
From the SRD



Any weapon can be quick drawn as long as you have the Quick Draw feat. The thing is you can't "Quick Sheath" since sheathing a weapon is a Move Action and also since there is no feat that I know of that will allow you "Quick Sheath" a weapon.

Thanks for the response, the info about Quick Draw is useful. I hadn't really considered that Quick Draw couldn't be used to sheathe as well, but it makes sense. I didn't plan on relying on Quick Draw either, but I was wondering.

As for the rest of the stuff. As I said, I'm not allowed to reference the SRD unless I can also do so from a physical book, so could it be said I could make a good argument for saving skill points? I'd really like to know if there's a physical text to that effect.

[gorfnab]

New post: Your Build

Your build is a little funky, but if you're playing in a low optimized group I may have an idea. It's a little funky too since you said you have to avoid Multiclass XP Penalty. Four base classes is a little much but I guess if you really want Iajustu it will be a little weird. I'm sure someone will come up with a better build than this considering I'm tired and I really need to go bed since it is 4:52 am where I am.

1. Swordsage - Adaptive Style, Able Learner, B: Weapon Focus Shadow Hand
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - EWP Spiked Chain
4. Swashbuckler
5. Rogue
6. Samurai - Craven
7. Samurai - B: Quick Draw (Crane Clan)
8. Swordsage - (Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception)
9. Rogue - Combat Expertise (Penetrating Strike ACF - Dungeonscape)
10. Swashbuckler
11. Swordsage
12. Samurai - Daring Outlaw
13. Samurai - B: Improved Trip (Crane Clan)
14. Rogue
15. Exotic Weapon Master - Combat Reflexes (Trip Attack)
16. Exotic Weapon Master - (Flurry of Strikes)
17. Exotic Weapon Master - (Exotic Reach)
18. Swashbuckler - Shadowblade
19. Swordsage
20. Swordsage

[gorfnab]

As for the rest of the stuff. As I said, I'm not allowed to reference the SRD unless I can also do so from a physical book, so could it be said I could make a good argument for saving skill points? I'd really like to know if there's a physical text to that effect.

Page 62 of the Player's Handbook written right above the heading SKILLS AT HIGHER LEVELS

Spend all your skill points. You can't save them to spend later

Trip Attacks - Page 158
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon - Page 142

[Nocturnum]

Page 62 of the Player's Handbook written right above the heading SKILLS AT HIGHER LEVELS

Ahh. I'm really not sure how I missed that before. Thanks.


Your build suggestion is interesting. I like that it managed to work in Craven early on and found room for Improved Trip, which I was trying to fit in as well.

Is Dex to Dmg (Shadow Blade) not worth taking early on though? The scalability isn't great, so I imagined that the effectiveness would fade somewhat end-game.

The swordsage levels amount to 6 level 1 maneuvers, 1 level 1 stance.
Then 1 -3 maneuver and 1 -3 stance (Assassin's Stance for sure)
Then 1 -4 maneuver
Then 1 -6 maneuver and 1 maneuver relearned
Then 1 -7 maneuver and 1 -7 stance
Can this be a viable Swordsage build with only 10 maneuvers, at least 5 of which are lvl 1? Beyond level 1 maneuvers and a few good higher level Shadow Hand ones, I'm not very familiar with them, so I'm not sure.

Is a Nightsong Enforcer dip not worth Improved Initiative either? +1 BAB and more SA seems worth it to me, perhaps not.

[holywhippet]

As for the rest of the stuff. As I said, I'm not allowed to reference the SRD unless I can also do so from a physical book, so could it be said I could make a good argument for saving skill points? I'd really like to know if there's a physical text to that effect.

I could be wrong, but I thought everything in the SRD was extracted from actual rulebooks - mainly the core ones.

[Eloel]

I could be wrong, but I thought everything in the SRD was extracted from actual rulebooks - mainly the core ones.

Everything in d20srd is from:
PHB
DMG
MM
UA
EPH
ELH
And the godbook I dont remember the name of.

[Prime32]

Everything in d20srd is from:
PHB
DMG
MM
UA
EPH
ELH
And the godbook I dont remember the name of.

It's clearly divided by section though. There's no supplemental information mixed in with the core rules.

If any book is allowed, why does that even matter?

[true_shinken]

Factotum/Swordsage into Iaijutsu Master would probably work better for your purposes.
Kung-fu Genius feat (if you can use Dragon Compendium; it is a book and all are allowed, after all) to get that tasty Int to AC.

If you can't or won't use Factotum, a single level of Human Paragon at first also works. Paragon classes never incur in multiclass penalties, btw.

[Toptomcat]

Vow of Poverty works great in a low-op game with WBL problems, but you'd have to abandon the spiked chain.

[Mongoose87]

Everything in d20srd is from:
PHB
DMG
MM
UA
EPH
ELH
And the godbook I dont remember the name of.

It's called Deities and Demigods FYI.

[Nocturnum]

Factotum/Swordsage into Iaijutsu Master would probably work better for your purposes.
Kung-fu Genius feat (if you can use Dragon Compendium; it is a book and all are allowed, after all) to get that tasty Int to AC.

If you can't or won't use Factotum, a single level of Human Paragon at first also works. Paragon classes never incur in multiclass penalties, btw.

I considered a Factotum dip, but nearly all of the skills I want are class skills for my other dips and Samurai gets full BAB. That was my reasoning anyway. I'll have to look at the Paragon classes.

I could be wrong, but I thought everything in the SRD was extracted from actual rulebooks - mainly the core ones.

That was my impression. The issue is that, for whatever reason, my DM doesn't trust the legitimacy of the SRD. We are also excluding any of the errata as well, which the SRD would probably include without specifically noting something has been errata'd. I couldn't find the passage in PHB that I was looking for, hence the confusion.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

May I suggest for your first Swordsage stance, Island of Blades? Sneak Attack is all well and good, getting more of it is Plusgood. But if you can't apply said sneak attacks, then it becomes doubleplussbad. Therefore, being able to make flanking attacks MUCH easier is at least plusgood if not doubleplussgood.

Granted, it's mutually exclusive with assassin's stance, but it allows your to sneak attack when you would otherwise be unable to, giving you more options in combat.

[lsfreak]

May I suggest for your first Swordsage stance, Island of Blades? Sneak Attack is all well and good, getting more of it is Plusgood. But if you can't apply said sneak attacks, then it becomes doubleplussbad. Therefore, being able to make flanking attacks MUCH easier is at least plusgood if not doubleplussgood.

Isn't it supposed to be doubleplusungood instead of doubleplusbad?

That was my impression. The issue is that, for whatever reason, my DM doesn't trust the legitimacy of the SRD. We are also excluding any of the errata as well, which the SRD would probably include without specifically noting something has been errata'd. I couldn't find the passage in PHB that I was looking for, hence the confusion.

Uhh... what the ****? It's errata for a reason. Besides, you'll have differences between copies of PHB's when you do that, because later printings wrote in the errata as far as I know.

[gorfnab]

Is Dex to Dmg (Shadow Blade) not worth taking early on though? The scalability isn't great, so I imagined that the effectiveness would fade somewhat end-game.

It depends on what you're going for. Stand Still (XPH), Mage Slayer (CA), Darkstalker (LoM), or Staggering Strike (CAdv) might be better options.

The swordsage levels amount to 6 level 1 maneuvers, 1 level 1 stance.
Then 1 -3 maneuver and 1 -3 stance (Assassin's Stance for sure)
Then 1 -4 maneuver
Then 1 -6 maneuver and 1 maneuver relearned
Then 1 -7 maneuver and 1 -7 stance
Can this be a viable Swordsage build with only 10 maneuvers, at least 5 of which are lvl 1? Beyond level 1 maneuvers and a few good higher level Shadow Hand ones, I'm not very familiar with them, so I'm not sure.

3rd - Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception
4th - Obscuring Shadow Veil
6th - Ghost Blade, Stalker in the Night
7th - Shadow Blink, Step of the Dancing Moth

Is a Nightsong Enforcer dip not worth Improved Initiative either? +1 BAB and more SA seems worth it to me, perhaps not.

Not really, unless you can somehow work in Improved Initiative into the build and even then you would be loosing out on other potential class abilities.

[Nocturnum]

May I suggest for your first Swordsage stance, Island of Blades? Sneak Attack is all well and good, getting more of it is Plusgood. But if you can't apply said sneak attacks, then it becomes doubleplussbad. Therefore, being able to make flanking attacks MUCH easier is at least plusgood if not doubleplussgood.

Granted, it's mutually exclusive with assassin's stance, but it allows your to sneak attack when you would otherwise be unable to, giving you more options in combat.

I was planning to take Island of Blades at first and then switch between that and Assassin's Stance as I needed.

Uhh... what the ****? It's errata for a reason. Besides, you'll have differences between copies of PHB's when you do that, because later printings wrote in the errata as far as I know.

He's the DM. It's his show. As for the version discrepancies, we are allowed to reference any 3/3.5 book. So we can essentially choose which set of rules to follow if there are inconsistencies. In theory, I understand how that might work out... but it sounds messier than it should be. His prerogative though. I guess as far as 'errata' is concerned, he means any non-print errata.

It depends on what you're going for. Stand Still (XPH), Mage Slayer (CA), Darkstalker (LoM), or Staggering Strike (CAdv) might be better options.

I'll take a look at those.

3rd - Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception
4th - Obscuring Shadow Veil
6th - Ghost Blade, Stalker in the Night
7th - Shadow Blink, Step of the Dancing Moth

Those all look great.

Not really, unless you can somehow work in Improved Initiative into the build and even then you would be loosing out on other potential class abilities.

I was under the impression that Improved Initiative was just generally good to take, the latter is true though... Hmm.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shadow Blade is good if you can min/max your Str/Dex. Basically, if you go Strongheart Halfling with a Str of 6 and a Dex of 20 to start out with, then Shadow Blade will be an enormous +7 to damage overall (+5 instead of a -2). That assumes you are also going into Setting Sun for defensive, of course.

It is not so good if there isn't much of a difference between your Str and Dex scores.

[Nocturnum]

Shadow Blade is good if you can min/max your Str/Dex. Basically, if you go Strongheart Halfling with a Str of 6 and a Dex of 20 to start out with, then Shadow Blade will be an enormous +7 to damage overall (+5 instead of a -2). That assumes you are also going into Setting Sun for defensive, of course.

It is not so good if there isn't much of a difference between your Str and Dex scores.

I had planned on dumping Str, it seemed the least useful for what I had in mind for my character. Like I said in first post though, we are rolling, so it's hard to say exactly where my stats will yet fall.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, don't forget about Pouncing Strike from Tiger Claw. Pounce on a jump check? Yes, please.

[mabriss lethe]

For a low wealth option there are several classes that will reduce your dependence upon equpment when coupled with levels in swordsage. here are a few ideas.

Psychic Warrior- Wis synergy and a good selection of offensive/defensive powers

Soulknife- Usually a redheaded stepchild, in a low wealth game, it can be very useful to have access to other magic weapons.

Binder- There are several vestiges that allow you to summon weapons/armor, give you natural attacks, unusual defenses, sudden strike. sneak attack, etc.

[The-Mage-King]

May I suggest, instead of even bothering with the Samurai, using Human Paragon from Unearthed Arcana as your first class level, followed by a level of Sneak Attack Fighter (Thug), a level of Rogue, a level of Swashbuckler, then continuing on with Swordsage and SNF?

That way you get, at fifth level:

Iaijutsu Focus as a permanant class skill for every class you take.

+2d6 Sneak Attack.

Weapon Finesse.

2nd level Maneuvers.


-----------------

And, due to saying "First the Thug variant, then Sneak Attack Fighter variant", you get more skill points, normal sneak attack, and a better hit die than just going with Sneak Attack Fighter.

EDIT: And you can pick up Extra Favored class at 6th level, making "Fighter" your second favored class.

[Greenish]

Also, don't forget about Pouncing Strike from Tiger Claw. Pounce on a jump check? Yes, please.

Pouncing Charge doesn't require a jump check.

[Nocturnum]

For a low wealth option there are several classes that will reduce your dependence upon equpment when coupled with levels in swordsage. here are a few ideas.

Psychic Warrior- Wis synergy and a good selection of offensive/defensive powers

Soulknife- Usually a redheaded stepchild, in a low wealth game, it can be very useful to have access to other magic weapons.

Binder- There are several vestiges that allow you to summon weapons/armor, give you natural attacks, unusual defenses, sudden strike. sneak attack, etc.

I forgot to mention in first post, I'll go edit it now, but my DM is also forbidding psionics. A Soulknife/Rogue was my original idea. He is convinced that Psionics are overpowered (which makes me wonder why he doesn't outlaw BoNS, but that's irrelevant), so we aren't allowed to use them.

May I suggest, instead of even bothering with the Samurai, using Human Paragon from Unearthed Arcana as your first class level, followed by a level of Sneak Attack Fighter (Thug), a level of Rogue, a level of Swashbuckler, then continuing on with Swordsage and SNF?

That way you get, at fifth level:

Iaijutsu Focus as a permanant class skill for every class you take.

+2d6 Sneak Attack.

Weapon Finesse.

2nd level Maneuvers.


-----------------

And, due to saying "First the Thug variant, then Sneak Attack Fighter variant", you get more skill points, normal sneak attack, and a better hit die than just going with Sneak Attack Fighter.

EDIT: And you can pick up Extra Favored class at 6th level, making "Fighter" your second favored class.

The reason I took Swordsage at first was merely to get Island of Blades early on and for the ridiculous amount of Skillpoints at first level (which amounts to 40 +(6xIntmod) for a human.) I still have yet to take a look at Human Paragon, but I plan to do that soon. Samurai sort of hinders my build in alot of ways, but I didn't see Factotum as being any better for my needs, I'd be glad to find a good way to be rid of it without losing what I would've gained. As for the Extra Favored Class, is that an official feat? I've read about the Additional Favored Class feat, but it was a suggested house rule in a sidebar, I don't think my DM would go for it. I would have to haggle to qualify for Diverse Background as well (I think that's the name).


I may drop the whole Iaijutsu Focus thing if I can't find a viable way of utilizing it without needing a huge dip into some class with little else to offer.
Without the Cleric dip I originally planned, I didn't have much other reason for a high Cha either, so that would free up some ability strain.

[Jarian]

I forgot to mention in first post, I'll go edit it now, but my DM is also forbidding psionics. A Soulknife/Rogue was my original idea. He is convinced that Psionics are overpowered (which makes me wonder why he doesn't outlaw BoNS, but that's irrelevant), so we aren't allowed to use them.

Please, for the love of all that is good and right, make sure that he understands that the maximum augment is equal to your manifester level. This is a common mistake, and I shake my head sadly at how misinformed people are whenever they say psionics are broken but spellcasting is a-okay.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to the rest of the discussion.

[Nocturnum]

Please, for the love of all that is good and right, make sure that he understands that the maximum augment is equal to your manifester level. This is a common mistake, and I shake my head sadly at how misinformed people are whenever they say psionics are broken but spellcasting is a-okay.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to the rest of the discussion.

I'll remember to bring that up before our next campaign, we are already well along in this one. The only reason I'm making a new character now is because my party aren't team players and my Cloistered Cleric died.