The Erudite: Why is it a tier 1 class?

[TechnOkami]

I know that there's the STP Erudite variant which is actually pretty freaking awesome, but I doubt that's it. So playground, care to give me an explanation?

[Cog]

I imagine it's because they can spontaneously manifest off nearly their entire list (since they can learn additional powers like wizards learn spells). Unique Powers per Day is barely a limitation past midlevels, as written.

[One Step Two]

At lower levels it's so-so at higher levels, even without the STP variant however... Imagine a wizard being able to cast spontaneously from his entire spellbook, no preperation, he has a vast library of spells, and he can decide at any moment which is best to use. His Manifesting per day are limited by a set number of unique powers, which he can then repeat, but he is essentially a Sorcerer with an infinite number of spells known.


Edit: Partially Swordsage'd

[Eloel]

At lower levels it's so-so at higher levels, even without the STP variant however... Imagine a wizard being able to cast spontaneously from his entire spellbook, no preperation, he has a vast library of spells, and he can decide at any moment which is best to use. His Manifesting per day are limited by a set number of unique powers, which he can then repeat, but he is essentially a Sorcerer with an infinite number of spells known.


Edit: Partially Swordsage'd

Hence, Rainbow Servant = Broken.

Edit: To explain, Rainbow Servant lets you cast off of Cleric spell list. Stuff like Warmages and Beguilers know their whole list. Rainbow Servant added to those class adds the whole Cleric spell list to their 'cast spontaneously from' list. Broken. Erudite gets that as-is. Even more broken.

[Wings of Peace]

Hence, Rainbow Servant = Broken.

Edit: To explain, Rainbow Servant lets you cast off of Cleric spell list. Stuff like Warmages and Beguilers know their whole list. Rainbow Servant added to those class adds the whole Cleric spell list to their 'cast spontaneously from' list. Broken. Erudite gets that as-is. Even more broken.

I wouldn't say that makes the Rainbow Servant broken. Even Beguiler has a fairly iffy spell list compared to a straight Wizard so aside from a few gems there isn't a lot to brag about starting off, and getting a Cleric universally spontaneous casting isn't a difficult feet. On top of that if you play by the table (which I'm going to break character optimization etiquette and assume most DMs will do instead of following the text under the spell casting entry) then the Rainbow Servant will still lack 9th level spells. Meanwhile, Wizard's and Clerics will be taking dips into their slew of classes that let them abuse metamagic easier.

The Erudite is similar but more broken in that it gets full range spellcasting 0-9, it can gain access to all psychic powers (not just those specifically from the Psion list), and while doing these things it still has complete freedom to prc out for further options. The Spell to Power variant is just icing at that point once you reach mid levels or if played smartly even some of the later early levels.

[Starbuck_II]

I wouldn't say that makes the Rainbow Servant broken. Even Beguiler has a fairly iffy spell list compared to a straight Wizard, and getting a Cleric universally spontaneous casting isn't a difficult feet.

On top of that if you play by the table (which I'm going to break character optimization etiquette and assume most DMs will do instead of following the text under the spell casting entry) then the Rainbow Servant will still lack 9th level spells. Meanwhile, Wizard's and Clerics will be taking dips into their slew of classes that let them abuse metamagic easier.

It has nothing to do with optimization. The rules says Text beats table (Wotc ruled that).

[Wings of Peace]

It has nothing to do with optimization. The rules says Text beats table (Wotc ruled that).

I wouldn't say that makes the Rainbow Servant broken. Even Beguiler has a fairly iffy spell list compared to a straight Wizard so aside from a few gems there isn't a lot to brag about starting off, and getting a Cleric universally spontaneous casting isn't a difficult feet. On top of that if you play by the table (which I'm going to break RAW and blatantly impose an imo statement by assuming the majority of dms will do) then the Rainbow Servant will still lack 9th level spells. Meanwhile, Wizard's and Clerics will be taking dips into their slew of classes that let them abuse metamagic easier.

If it matters that much to you there it is. However, given that the Rainbow Savant is neither listed as a full casting prc in the book nor does the table support the argument that it is I will not be retracting my generalization. The playground may ignore or embrace this part of my argument as it wishes. However, lets not hijack the thread with Rainbow Servant debate.

[shadow_archmagi]

I know that there's the STP Erudite variant which is actually pretty freaking awesome, but I doubt that's it. So playground, care to give me an explanation?

Basically, you know how wizards can learn spells from scrolls, or from other wizards? So that, in theory, if two wizards meet along the road, they can both walk away with twice as many spells?

The Erudite works like that, except that instead of lugging around a spellbook he just mind-melds with friendly psychics and then remembers all their powers.

Plus, Erudite casting has a limited number of unique powers. That is, say an Erudite has a limit of 4 powers. Something pops up and he wants to murder it. He uses Energy Bolt. He pays power-points for it just like normal, and now Energy Bolt is one of the powers he's used for the day. He can use Energy Bolt whenever he wants (assuming he has points for it) and can use three other powers, too.

Basically, the flexibility of a sorcerer combined with the massive list of a wizard.

That means that if an Erudite has gone and hugged a lot of psychics, he can have a mental list of 90000000000 powers to choose from at any given time.

Spell To Power means that he gets to do this with wizard spells too.

[TechnOkami]

o.o ...my god that's powerful... ..I might just need to read the handbook to make more sense of it.

[FMArthur]

The loads of experience you have to drop and record all the time just to do your main class schtick (learning extra powers) is kind of off-putting, though. Otherwise it's a really cool idea that actually works out quite well in practice.

[randomhero00]

Yeah its not as powerful in game as you might think. Try actually playing it with a reasonable DM before you come to any conclusions.

[Yuki Akuma]

Erudites do very well in parties with Wilders and other Psions. Erudites aren't the only ones who can do the "mind meld" thing - they're just the only ones who can spend xp to learn powers permanently.

Need to use a utility power but don't want to waste a unique power per day? Get your Psion or Wilder buddy to do it instead.

[kestrel404]

Plus, Erudite casting has a limited number of unique powers. That is, say an Erudite has a limit of 4 powers. Something pops up and he wants to murder it. He uses Energy Bolt. He pays power-points for it just like normal, and now Energy Bolt is one of the powers he's used for the day. He can use Energy Bolt whenever he wants (assuming he has points for it) and can use three other powers, too.

Actually, it's powers of EACH LEVEL. In order to be able to use 4 different powers of a given level per day, you would need to be level 8. Which means you have access to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th level powers (and cantrips if you're STP). You can manifest 4 powers from each of those - so 16! (20!) unique powers. Per day. By level 8.

This is actually supposed to be on par with Psion as it gives you a roughly equivalent number of 'powers known' each day.

Spell To Power means that he gets to do this with wizard spells too.

Also cleric. And ranger, paladin, duskblade, assassin, wu-jen, and whoever else you can get your hands on. Note that 'unconscious' counts as 'willing' for the purposes of learning spells from someone's mind. Warmages and beguilers are especially tasty, since you can only learn spells that are currently 'memorized', but they know their entire list (including spells they don't have access to yet, according to the fluff) all the time.

[Wings of Peace]

Just as an aside, I always found it nice that the Erudite is a variant of the Psion instead of it's own separate entity. From a rules perspective when qualifying for certain things or looking into potential exploits it opens up more options.

[shadow_archmagi]

Actually, it's powers of EACH LEVEL.

I was just making an example...

[AtopTheMountain]

On this note, where is the STP Erudite? I'm not seeing it in Complete Psionic... is it on the SRD? I'm too lazy to look.

[The Antigamer]

On this note, where is the STP Erudite? I'm not seeing it in Complete Psionic... is it on the SRD? I'm too lazy to look.

It's in the Mind's Eye articles.

[AtopTheMountain]

It's in the Mind's Eye articles.

Ah, thanks. Too bad they've started purging the 3.5 archive, or so I've heard.

[TechnOkami]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107034 Would a Swordsage Erudite work with this PrC, and even if it does, would it be worth it?

I'm making an Illithid Swordsage with the Talenta Sarrash scythe from the Ebberon Campaign Setting. Yes I know about the monstrous LA and the errata'd scythe, my GM and I are working on it all.

[Lord Raziere]

......

NOW I realize why the vancian magic system seems so artificial to me, this thread made me realize it.

There is no actual skill in it, the spells are treated too much like a program or a tool you pick up and use rather than a technique or art you have to master.

which means the magic system just needs a way of putting effort into getting all those spells to make it balanced.....sure you could eventually get all the spells in the world but it would take more time than you would ever have cause you would need to master them first.......

[dgnslyr]

Just look at your ML, then down at the wizard chart, then back to your ML. Your ML is now diamonds. What ever level spells a wizard could cast, you can learn. Sadly, you are not a wizard, but you can manifest powers like the wizard you smell like.

I'm on a phantom steed.

Yeah, that only applies to the StP version, but any full caster is bound to be high tiered.