can familiars without natural attacks deliver touch spells

[jpreem]

When I take a familiar like a bat or a toad which does not have any natural attacks can it still deliver touch spells.

I think that even if they don't have natural weapons they should be able to make an unarmed attack.
(btw what's the damage of a tiny unarmed attack?)

[Duke of URL]

Of course they can. Holding the charge of a touch spell makes you "armed"; a successful touch attack against a target yields no melee damage, but does discharge the spell into the target (subject to SR and saving throws).

[jpreem]

So you would add masters BAB and creatures dex/str to attack roll with this charge?
It is mentioned that, this is the thing familiars get as an attack bonus for their natural attack. ( But it has not mentioned that, this is what they get for anything else)

Quote from srd:
Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind

In case they do not get this bonus. Then just an unarmed touch attack for a bat would be at: -1 (-5 for 1str and +4 for being diminuitive)

Well thsi was from srd - maybe in DMG or PHB there are something better for a familiar. I'll go flip them.

[Diarmuid]

Well, -1 + Master's BAB

[ericgrau]

It says they may use dex in place of strength, so more like Master's BAB + familiar's dex + 4. Otherwise I'd really want a cat familiar for the free weapon finesse.

[jpreem]

Hmm or worse - in that line they don't discuss that they get size bonus on it

[jpreem]

It says they may use dex in place of strength, so more like BAB + dex + 4. Otherwise I'd really want a cat familiar for the free weapon finesse.

It says they can use dex insted of strength and add their masters BAB for their NATURAL WEAPON attacks. Which bats and toads don't have

[ericgrau]

It says his attack bonus uses his master's BAB and his own str or dex. As in use those when figuring out AB (EDIT: for natural attacks). It doesn't say AB = BAB + (str or dex). Size affects AB so we must assume it's included unless another rule says otherwise. Other factors such as [greater] magic fang would probably help too.

It says they can use dex insted of strength and add their masters BAB for their NATURAL WEAPON attacks. Which bats and toads don't have

Ah, I see. But the same problem would affect familiars with natural attacks, because their touch attack is not a natural attack. They could choose to use a natural attack to deliver a touch spell in addition to damage, but they'd have to hit regular AC not touch AC.

[jpreem]

@ ericgrau
As i undestand you interpret these lines like that -
Familiars use masters BAB for their own BAB. ( doesn't matter if it is unarmed strike, a manufactured or natural weapon).
And they have a weapon finesse like effect in case they use their natural weapon.
So that hmm the first statement and second are actually not connected

To read it so it actually makes sense. Thank you.

[ericgrau]

Sorry I ninja edited changed my mind as you posted. Time to become doubly confused. Or look up a FAQ to see whether or not familiars may apply dex to touch attacks as well, since those might be different from natural attacks.

[jpreem]

Well I think that most of sane DM-s would rule that this touch attack would be done as if the lines I ripped from srd would work for this one too.( dex or str +masters BAB)
It is quite like monks being nonproficient with their fist issue you know.
By raw it is so but you know everybody fixes it.

[ericgrau]

I suppose you could argue that touch attacks fall under natural attacks, but I haven't found a straight answer. Ya, that's probably how it works and I'd go with it until you find a FAQ answer or something.