[3.5] Polymorph any Object and Familiars

[Soren Hero]

hello all,

I had two questions:
1) Is it possible RAW to PAO (something permanent hopefully) your arcane familiar into something more, formidable?

2) If so, what would be a good monster to PAO your familiar into?

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I think that it is possible RAW, because all the SRD material on familiars doesn't prohibit this change.

[The Mentalist]

I'm pretty sure that it's Polymorph ANY Object.

Yes it's possible as far as I can tell, there's also the double layer the spell trick but that's one you have to debate for yourself.


A Solar would be awesome, get Cleric casting along with your Wizard spells.
Dragons are classic.
A Winged (from Savage Species) Whale would be cool, DIVE BOMB!
A Swarm?

[Cogidubnus]

Cast Polymorph any object on yourself and let it affect your familiar as well. Turn both of you into hydras. Charge, ravening, at the enemy and bury them under a wave of bite attacks.

[Kaww]

I'm pretty sure that it says that PaO functions like good old polymorph...

That said you do NOT gain the following:

-New form's EX special qualities
-NF SU attacks
-NF SU special qualities
-Wis
-Cha
-BAB
-Saves
-Of this I'm not sure, but you keep your HP, if you are a familiar

Have I missed something?

@ OP: So, if you want something useful go with something that will not die often.
An archer, mount, scout, (if evil) an important NPC which you remove and replace with your trusted companion?

If you feel like killing it a high AC tank, Dire polar bear if you need strength...

[Kaww]

Cast Polymorph any object on yourself and let it affect your familiar as well. Turn both of you into hydras. Charge, ravening, at the enemy and bury them under a wave of bite attacks.

I apologize if double.

YOU GAIN HYDRA'S INT, bad mojo...

[Soren Hero]

Cast Polymorph any object on yourself and let it affect your familiar as well. Turn both of you into hydras. Charge, ravening, at the enemy and bury them under a wave of bite attacks.

I'm pretty sure that it's Polymorph ANY Object.

Yes it's possible as far as I can tell, there's also the double layer the spell trick but that's one you have to debate for yourself.


A Solar would be awesome, get Cleric casting along with your Wizard spells.
Dragons are classic.
A Winged (from Savage Species) Whale would be cool, DIVE BOMB!
A Swarm?

both great suggestions
@ The Mentalist: i'm not sure about polymorphed creatures getting spell casting...i've seen threads argue about it, and by RAW, its still debatable...they don't count as Supernatural/Spell-like/extraordinary...technically, they don't have a classification, so, its up in the air

EDIT: forgot about the INT score thing, so great idea mb for my familiar, but definitely not for me

[Kaww]

If you are looking for a way to make it permanent these are actually bad suggestions.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm

I don't believe that you could get to 9 with a Solar. So having a Solar for 20 minutes is great, having 2 is better. If you try hydra you are ******. It's a 9, you lose spells, ability to distinguish friend from foe etc.

[Soren Hero]

If you are looking for a way to make it permanent these are actually bad suggestions.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm

I don't believe that you could get to 9 with a Solar. So having a Solar for 20 minutes is great, having 2 is better. If you try hydra you are ******. It's a 9, you lose spells, ability to distinguish friend from foe etc.

you bring up very valid points..im prolly just too tired to think straight right now...i think it might be possible to get a familiar to a 9 for solar (or something similar), but it would take more than one casting i think...turning it into something very similar to a solar, like a planetar, then planetar into solar...its same kingdom (+5), same class (+2), same size (+2), and related (+2)...still the problem would be that a solar for a familiar would cause more attention to be paid to the familiar then i would like, and the solar wouldn't have spellcasting or spell like abilities (which i feel is important)...

I'm pretty sure that it says that PaO functions like good old polymorph...

That said you do NOT gain the following:

-New form's EX special qualities
-NF SU attacks
-NF SU special qualities
-Wis
-Cha
-BAB
-Saves
-Of this I'm not sure, but you keep your HP, if you are a familiar

Have I missed something?

@ OP: So, if you want something useful go with something that will not die often.
An archer, mount, scout, (if evil) an important NPC which you remove and replace with your trusted companion?

If you feel like killing it a high AC tank, Dire polar bear if you need strength...

i was thinking about something more along the lines of aerial bomber, or stealth assassin, maybe something that could use wands or place objects near targets, but safely

[Kaww]

you bring up very valid points..im prolly just too tired to think straight right now...i think it might be possible to get a familiar to a 9 for solar (or something similar), but it would take more than one casting i think...turning it into something very similar to a solar, like a planetar, then planetar into solar...its same kingdom (+5), same class (+2), same size (+2), and related (+2)...

They are same kingdom, you might get same class with exalted familiar feat. THIS IS STRETCHING IT have it be an altar boy, so they are related

On the serious note a suicidal winged whale isn't a valid use of a familiar. Also mechanically Planetar and Solar have no differences for PaO.

[Soren Hero]

They are same kingdom, you might get same class with exalted familiar feat. THIS IS STRETCHING IT have it be an altar boy, so they are related

On the serious note a suicidal winged whale isn't a valid use of a familiar. Also mechanically Planetar and Solar have no differences for PaO.

kk...just some ideas to throw around...what would u suggest for a good PAO target for a familiar?

[Kaww]

This depends on what the party is lacking (MM1):

If I needed a tunneler I'd say Purple worm.

If I needed a scout some swarm, since you share their senses.

An areal mount is most likely a Roc.

Important NPC - a supreme ruler's adviser (Since he runs the show).

Assassin, a tough one, most likely fiendish viper.

[Soren Hero]

This depends on what the party is lacking (MM1):

If I needed a tunneler I'd say Purple worm.

If I needed a scout some swarm, since you share their senses.

An areal mount is most likely a Roc.

Important NPC - a supreme ruler's adviser (Since he runs the show).

Assassin, a tough one, most likely fiendish viper.

all great suggestions...are there ways to get familiar spell casting? im new to all the non-core materials, raised mostly on SRD, so I can't think of any

[Kaww]

Well, your familiar can channel your spells. You can make a spellstitched (I think this is the name) familiar, and I also believe that there is a feat that lets your familiar cast a spell you know three times per day as a SLA. I believe in core too... My players don't...

[Soren Hero]

Well, your familiar can channel your spells. You can make a spellstitched (I think this is the name) familiar, and I also believe that there is a feat that lets your familiar cast a spell you know three times per day as a SLA. I believe in core too... My players don't...

i did some research on the Spell Stitched template, and it does provide sorcerer casting based on wisdom...so, what would someone have to do to acquire the template for a familiar? it says only a "normal, unmodified" animal may become a familiar, and a death of a familiar (which seems necessary in order to be undead) means it cannot be replaced for a year and a day...i think there was a feat that allowed someone to call an undead familiar, but for a wizard build, a feat might not be worth it

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually would try to PAO my cat familiar into a Displacer Beast, lets see if I can get the duration factor to 9.

Cat to Displacer beast

Same Kingdom +5 (both are animals/magical beasts)
Same class +2 (both are mammals and felines at that)

Now I just need to find a way to increase the familiar size to medium(?) or to see if a high level familiar has the same int as the Displacer Beast, any of those will give me the necessary +2 duration factor to have a nice displacer beast familiar.

Edit: Actually... I need to make my familiar more stupid so he can have the same int as a Displacer beast (5).... a familiar of a level 15th wizard (the minimum level to cast PAO) a familiar have an Int score of 13.... >.<

It seems it is easier to get a large mamallian magical beast familiat... a worg? IIRC you could get one with improved familiar and sufficient BAB....

Edit the 2nd: A winter wolf by itself gets a Duration factor 9 (IE permanent) on PAO'ing to a Displacer Beast.... hmm I'll have to consider this.... and find a DM that will let me do this.

[Kairyu]

My Bard/Sublime Chord often polymorphed his Blink Dog familiar into many different things... it's not that hard to give your familiar a short-term "poof" into something else.

[Coidzor]

ability to distinguish friend from foe

Int-damaged fighters don't lose that ability, nor do one's trained animals lack that ability.

[Soren Hero]

Int-damaged fighters don't lose that ability, nor do one's trained animals lack that ability.

i agree...but int damage isn't good for a wizard, so a hydra wouldn't be a good choice for PAO, but maybe for a polymorph...however, PAO a familiar into a hydra might work

[Master Thrower]

Or you could turn ur familiar into a pebble for 20 minutes. a pebble that can cast spells

[Soren Hero]

Or you could turn ur familiar into a pebble for 20 minutes. a pebble that can cast spells

if that's the case, i would just use magic jar on my familiar, using said pebble as the vessel...then throw it into a group of enemies, and let it cause some mayhem

[Cruiser1]

My understanding is that you can't ever Polymorph Any Object into a Solar. Polymorph Any Object acts like Polymorph except where stated differently. Polymorph can never make a creature more than 15 HD, and a Solar has 22 HD.

Beyond that, normally you can't ever Polymorph [Any Object] into a Planetar (14 HD) or any celestial. You can only Polymorph into specific creature types or the subject's original type. Of course, if you have a celestial familiar to begin with or first use an alternate spell that temporarily gives the celestial type, then you can at least turn into a Planetar.

[Kaww]

Int-damaged fighters don't lose that ability, nor do one's trained animals lack that ability.

Sorry about that, should have said we play that int < 4 rolls dice who he attacks. Applicable to PCs and NPCs. This actually gives a boost to certain spells... Trained animals are trained, just like real world dogs.

@ Cruiser1: Polymorph doesn't allow you to turn into a pebble either? Nor does it allow you to turn anybody into an inanimate object. Which PaO allows.

SRD example is human to marionette...

[Soren Hero]

My understanding is that you can't ever Polymorph Any Object into a Solar. Polymorph Any Object acts like Polymorph except where stated differently. Polymorph can never make a creature more than 15 HD, and a Solar has 22 HD.

Beyond that, normally you can't ever Polymorph [Any Object] into a Planetar (14 HD) or any celestial. You can only Polymorph into specific creature types or the subject's original type. Of course, if you have a celestial familiar to begin with or first use an alternate spell that temporarily gives the celestial type, then you can at least turn into a Planetar.

Polymorph (via SRD):
The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

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I guess its just the HD limitation of polymorph that prevents the Solar change...another question I have: If you use a polymorph spell to change a creature (say a raven familiar) into a creature for a short duration, then while the familiar is polymorphed, you cast PAO to try to get a permanent duration, does the creature's new form count as the target for PAO or the old form?

[Cruiser1]

Polymorph doesn't allow you to turn into a pebble either? Nor does it allow you to turn anybody into an inanimate object. Which PaO allows.

Indeed. As posted, and as the Polymorph Any Object spell says, it acts like Polymorph except where stated differently. Polymorph Any Object explicitly says it can also polymorph to or from objects. However when choosing to polymorph into a creature, it has the same limitations as Polymorph. The spell Shapechange (level 9) has a HD limit of 25 for what you can change into. Polymorph Any Object (level 8) doesn't explicitly mention a HD limit, however it certainly isn't unlimited since a level 8 spell won't be better than a level 9 spell. That means Polymorph Any Object, which again acts as Polymorph except where stated differently, uses the 15 HD limit of Polymorph.

[Kaww]

... you might get same class with exalted familiar feat...

Polymorph (via SRD):
The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

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I guess its just the HD limitation of polymorph that prevents the Solar change...another question I have: If you use a polymorph spell to change a creature (say a raven familiar) into a creature for a short duration, then while the familiar is polymorphed, you cast PAO to try to get a permanent duration, does the creature's new form count as the target for PAO or the old form?

I mentioned the exalted familiar feat because of creature type. I'd rule that the original form is the creature's original form, before PaO.

[Coidzor]

Sorry about that, should have said we play that int < 4 rolls dice who he attacks. Applicable to PCs and NPCs. This actually gives a boost to certain spells... Trained animals are trained, just like real world dogs.

Hmm, too bad feeblemind makes it so they can't be given verbal commands, or that'd be a great way to pokemon foes like that... Would need some form of int-draining...

Gah, why must I constantly dwell upon minionizing?! x,x

[Kaww]

@ Coidzor

For this end we use Maxed Touch of idiocy...

[Soren Hero]

would it be advisable to PAO my familiar into a dragon of some sort?

[Jack_Simth]

hello all,

I had two questions:
1) Is it possible RAW to PAO (something permanent hopefully) your arcane familiar into something more, formidable?

2) If so, what would be a good monster to PAO your familiar into?

------------------------------------------------------------
I think that it is possible RAW, because all the SRD material on familiars doesn't prohibit this change.

Is it possible? Totally. Is it wise? Not so much. Your familiar has half the HP of your squishy arcanist self, and docs you XP if he dies. And Polymorph doesn't change his HP total. Works for a Great Wyrm dragon who took Obtain Familiar for some unfathomable reason, but less so for others.

[Soren Hero]

Is it possible? Totally. Is it wise? Not so much. Your familiar has half the HP of your squishy arcanist self, and docs you XP if he dies. And Polymorph doesn't change his HP total. Works for a Great Wyrm dragon who took Obtain Familiar for some unfathomable reason, but less so for others.

very true...its just a matter of trying to alter the abilities of said familiar, and have them be less of a liability...however, i guess changing the familiar into something MORE threatening makes it more of a priority target and therefore LESS desirable of a form