advice on challenging hard to hit/affect characters?

[Greyfell]

MY current campaign has a dwarf swordsage/monk/shadowsun ninja (I believe the levels are ss 3/mnk 2/ ssn 1). He's proven to be a very, very hard character to hit or affect with spells. I can count the times he's been significantly injured in an encounter on one hand with fingers left over, to put it bluntly. Usually it's just weight of numbers rolling really high to get past his pretty damn good AC.

Any ideas on how to affect such well protected characters? I'm not wanting to kill him (though last session a character did die, just not the dwarf swordmonk), but I'd like to make him worry a bit more. Spells/psionics arent even usually enough as he has a high touch AC and damn good saves as well.

Summon Swarm looks pretty decent, as it doesnt seem to need an attack roll at all.... any other thoughts?

[ArcanistSupreme]

How high is his touch AC? Would making him flatfooted (ie being invisible) make a difference?

Area effects such as cloudkill + wall effects such as forcecage will get him eventually.

Also consider that probability dictates that at least 5% of all attacks will hit him, so just swarm him with mooks that have similarly ridiculous AC.

What is his damage output? Remember, if he isn't much of a threat then there is no reason for baddies not to just ignore him and go for squishier targets.

[Glimbur]

It's possible he is stacking Wis twice to AC, which shouldn't work via Swordsage and Monk. I wish I had a citation for that, but if you want to get really picky the Swordsage ability only works in light armor, while the monk ability only works while unarmored.

Target him with things that have a lesser effect on a successful save. Entangle him, if you can. Surprise him, which will cut out his Dex and make him a bit easier to hit. Bull rush him into environmental concerns. Swarms, as you mentioned, will do damage. A group of weak enemies is better off using Aid Another to get one or two of them a decent chance at hitting.

[Last Laugh]

#1 don't let his wis>>ac stack, if that's the case


He has evasion, but his reflex is probably his lowest save. (higher con + wis than dex)
lets say +9 ref, and +11 others.

Posting his stats would be handy, defenses especially. High touch AC is a lil tricky but you can make a nemesis for him.
Here's what I can think of
-Grapple him
-Catch him flatfooted. or make him flatfooted (flanking) Still isn't that great because of wis>AC
-Power word spells can probably still affect him (PW:pain is low level and does extraordinary amounts of damage)
-Lower his saves (paladin of tyranny/blackguard works fine) then blast him
-depending on his skills GREASE (if he doesn't have 5 ranks in balance)
-
-
His defenses from what I can reckon.
-Ref: +6
-will: +8
-Fort:+8
-HP: 6d8+18?

An evoker wizaaard3/master specialist3 w/ 18 int and lightning bolt has
a save DC of 10+4+3+1+1 (19) fox's cunning for another +2
He has to make a dc 21 reflex save on every lightning bolt/fireball
Cloudkill is another option, lowering his constitution


This is a little rambly and the ideas aren't that great :(

[Eldariel]

There's a few things, mostly spells.

First, do note that Web is highly detrimental even on a successful save. It won't deal damage but he won't be a happy camper either.

Second, True Strike + Ray. Say, Ray of Clumsiness or Ray of Exhaustion or some such can do a lot to make someone's life hard. There's also loltruestrikeshiveringtouchgg, but I suggest against that since that involves Shivering Touch which is one of the worst-written spells in the game.

Third, Grease can make him flat-footed (on a successful save; failed save would actually knock him prone which would be even more discomforting) which makes him way easier to hit without Dex-bonus.

Fourth, combat modifiers can make people easier to hit. Someone charges him with another already in flanking position? +4. From high ground? +5 total. If he somehow ends up prone, that's another +4. Also, stuff like the Psionic feat Deep Impact (Touch Attack), ToB maneuver Rabid Wolf Strike (+4 to hit), etc. can help hit him. Also, someone with Knowledge Devotion [CChamp] gets rather notable bonuses to hit so there's that. Grapple and Trip both also attack his Touch AC.

The maneuver "Charging Minotaur" [Stone Dragon 1] is also an excellent option since Bull Rush doesn't target saves but it's a direct Strength-check. By the same token, Dungeoncrasher Fighter [Dungeonscape] would be very dangerous against him. Note that all this stuff is available to level 1-3 characters. Going up to equal levels, you can make these more dangerous (Charging Minotaur on a Fighter through Martial Study with level 6 Dungeoncrasher, Deep Impact on Rabid Wolf Strike with Knowledge Devotion, True Striking Ray of Exhaustion, True Strike Arcane Strike [CWar] full PA hit from a Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 2 (going Gish), etc.).

[Tyndmyr]

Be careful not to focus too heavily on negating a focused defensive character....it can feel like you just want to make his focus irrelevant.

Remember, damage is hardly the only way to make a player afraid of something.

[Godskook]

1.Make sure he's legal on the AC bonus thing, cause the monk and Swordsage bonuses do *NOT* stack.

2.His saves, given that progression, are 6/8/8 before stats, while save DCs are 10+lvl+stat, and you're in the 3rd lvl spells area, so he's facing DCs of 13+stat with best saves of 8+stat. At best, he's got a 20 percent chance of failing his saves against an equal level opponent, at worst, you could probably get a 50 percent chance or so. And then there's the issue that an enemy mage has access to better stat increases than the swordmonk does. All told, you could probably tweak out a save DC that would require a 13 or better on his roll. And then you start the debuffing process with a couple fell-drained sonic snaps or something, so that his saves are ripe for the picking.

3.Stop trying to challenge him purely with saves and attacks. Target him with more......indirect agression, such as stealing his gear while he sleeps, or kidnapping NPCs he has attachments to right in front of him.

[Greenish]

Third, Grease can make him flat-footed (on a successful save; failed save would actually knock him prone which would be even more discomforting) which makes him way easier to hit without Dex-bonus.

I should think it rather likely he as an martial adept has 5 ranks in Balance.

At least, once he gets greased, he'll pick them up the next level.

[Greyfell]

well he's a dwarf, which also makes his saves versus spells pretty ridiculous :) I dont know his exact stats, I dont make a habit of memorizing my players sheets. I did allow him to double the WIS stack, which was probably an error on my part but I loved his character concept and wanted him to play it, so to a degree it is my fault.

His damage output was one of the better ones in the party, mostly because the Factotum would UMD a wand of enlarge person in any significant fight, to make the dwarf large. He's also very, very knowledgable about **all** the options in a grapple and how the reach from being large can best be used in all important situations. Basically... he's just a really solid player with a really hard to hurt character. But now the Factotum is dead (mind thrusted by a mind flayer last session) and his replacement is a dwarf crusader 1/paladin 6. Finally, the party has a full BaB character :)

He also has some serious hot and cold dice luck... I've seen him miss multiple flurry attacks on relatively easy opponents, then turn around and consistently outgrapple something that has a better modifier then he has... all with the same set of dice. It's wierd, its almost like his D20 only perks up and comes to the party when there's a serious threat to the PC's.

Maybe I'm worrying to much. He is a very solid well played character, but the rest of the party is contributing as well in every fight, even the Mystic ranger with her bow. I just wish I could make him sweat a **little** instead of his borderline reckless assault into combat

[Soranar]

magic missile works fine , even a few should make him nervous

shallow whole creatures

as mentioned before, flanking

group grappling, using aid another (say 8 kobolds/squirrels/cats jump on him and start grappling, that's +8 to each roll right there)

best part is that a grappling character loses his dex bonus to AC

traps with high DCs

AoE spells/effects with high DC

evil bards to pump your minions' to hit
evil clerics for the same reason
situational powers (say an evil paladin smiting while charging with a flank)
give them so much loot they become encumbered from carrying it all (or a very heavy McGuffin they have to lug around that somehow cancels magic or something)

[Scow2]

Isn't that sort of class designed to be crazy-awesome and reckless?

Sounds like everything's working fine.

[Eldariel]

well he's a dwarf, which also makes his saves versus spells pretty ridiculous :) I dont know his exact stats, I dont make a habit of memorizing my players sheets. I did allow him to double the WIS stack, which was probably an error on my part but I loved his character concept and wanted him to play it, so to a degree it is my fault.

His damage output was one of the better ones in the party, mostly because the Factotum would UMD a wand of enlarge person in any significant fight, to make the dwarf large. He's also very, very knowledgable about **all** the options in a grapple and how the reach from being large can best be used in all important situations. Basically... he's just a really solid player with a really hard to hurt character. But now the Factotum is dead (mind thrusted by a mind flayer last session) and his replacement is a dwarf crusader 1/paladin 6. Finally, the party has a full BaB character :)

He also has some serious hot and cold dice luck... I've seen him miss multiple flurry attacks on relatively easy opponents, then turn around and consistently outgrapple something that has a better modifier then he has... all with the same set of dice. It's wierd, its almost like his D20 only perks up and comes to the party when there's a serious threat to the PC's.

Maybe I'm worrying to much. He is a very solid well played character, but the rest of the party is contributing as well in every fight, even the Mystic ranger with her bow. I just wish I could make him sweat a **little** instead of his borderline reckless assault into combat

Minotaur Warblades with Charging Minotaur are awesome And yeah, if opponents realize they aren't hitting him, just have them spend actions with some of the mentioned buffs. Then he realizes they're paying something to hit him, but he's also being hit. In other words, he gains something out of his AC, but he's not immortal. Seems like everyone wins.

[Radar]

There is a different route to take then negating the character: target what's (or who) precious to the PC rather then the PC himself.

This aproach can also lead to good roleplaying - "I'm invincible, yet I failed to protect X."

[Myth]

Have an invisible Bard deliver Irresistable Dance. Hilarity ensues.

[FelixG]

Be careful not to focus too heavily on negating a focused defensive character....it can feel like you just want to make his focus irrelevant.

Remember, damage is hardly the only way to make a player afraid of something.

This. If the player made his character to be hard to hit then thats that, have enemies move on to things they can smack around easier, you dont have to play your enemies stupid

and its worse to meta game against your own players.

[Moriato]

Maybe I'm worrying to much. He is a very solid well played character, but the rest of the party is contributing as well in every fight, even the Mystic ranger with her bow. I just wish I could make him sweat a **little** instead of his borderline reckless assault into combat

I'd say you are definitely worrying too much.

He's not overshadowing the rest of the group, and in fact it sounds like he needs help from the group to do significant damage. That's just good teamwork.

You say you can count the number of times he's been significantly hurt on one hand, I say he's playing a defense-focused character, and yet has STILL been significantly injured in several battles.

Sounds to me like you're challenging him just fine.

[Altissimus]

I agree with the comments that it's not a good idea to meta-game against a well-built character.

Therefore I would go with the fact that most monks don't tend to like barabarians or rogues, and sneak-attack him or hit him with a raging two-hander. The first shot (at least) should get through - most of the time - and the damage would be enough to spare a thought for.

I just wouldn't target him all the time, coz then he'll feel you're out to get him with everything.

There's always the last bastion for the DM - cheat. "Hmm, critical threat. Oh, damn, I rolled a 2 on the confirmation...it's not a critical...that'll be only 22 points of damage then."

A.

[ericgrau]

What is his damage output? Remember, if he isn't much of a threat then there is no reason for baddies not to just ignore him and go for squishier targets.

The fact that he's unarmored is a pretty good reason. That means it'll take at least a round or two before they realize it isn't just bad luck. If he doesn't die, oh well. It is a team effort and it is the success of the entire party that matters. All you can do is increase the CR if the entire party is having an easy time.

My personal opinion is to not tailor encounters to individual PCs, as it gets silly and implausible. Unless the monster has heard of the PCs and knows what to expect. It's also annoying to the PC who just had his build invalidated for no good reason. But that only works if you also keep their special abilities in check so that no PC is much more powerful than another, easily overwhelming any encounter that doesn't risk the death or total ineffectiveness of a weaker ally. Then you're stuck because increasing the CR doesn't work well. Then the solution is to equalize the power of the PCs. But if the party isn't mowing over encounters and if no one is at constant risk of dying then you don't have a problem; proceed as you were and don't show favoritism/anti-favoritism.

[Eldariel]

The fact that he's unarmored is a pretty good reason. That means it'll take at least a round or two before they realize it isn't just bad luck. If he doesn't die, oh well. It is a team effort and it is the success of the entire party that matters. All you can do is increase the CR if the entire party is having an easy time.

My personal opinion is to not tailor encounters to individual PCs, as it gets silly and implausible. Unless the monster has heard of the PCs and knows what to expect. It's also annoying to the PC who just had his build invalidated for no good reason. But that only works if you also keep their special abilities in check so that no PC is much more powerful than another, easily overwhelming any encounter that doesn't risk the death or total ineffectiveness of a weaker ally. Then you're stuck because increasing the CR doesn't work well. Then the solution is to equalize the power of the PCs. But if the party isn't mowing over encounters and if no one is at constant risk of dying then you don't have a problem; proceed as you were and don't show favoritism/anti-favoritism.

While I agree with the advice of not specifically tailoring the encounters for the PCs, much of the mentioned stuff is perfectly ordinary; any Gish will probably know True Strike, Web is a rather commonplace spell for Wizards being a simple level 2 Conjuration, and Minotaur with Charging Minotaur is just obvious

It's not trivial but once opponents realize they simply can't hit him normally, there's little reason they wouldn't take an extra action to actually score hits.

[ericgrau]

Ya, a small portion of the time monsters will pack things that can hurt him purely by coincidence and not because they expected him. Just because they're good anyway. And the DM varying the foes (but not to respond to any particular PC) keeps the game interesting. But there are only so many such abilities.

[Eldariel]

Ya, a small portion of the time monsters will pack things that can hurt him purely by coincidence and not because they expected him. Just because they're good anyway. And the DM varying the foes (but not to respond to any particular PC) keeps the game interesting. But there are only so many such abilities.

Monsters without class levels are going to be less threatening but if you're running a world mostly dominated by intelligent creatures, and have most combat-oriented intelligent creatures have class levels, it should work out rather nicely.

[Malbordeus]

theres a few good spells for characters like that. namely magic missile. have a hand full of Mook casters blast the guy if he's visible in combat. even if only level 3 sorc's/wizards, 4-5 of them should leave an impression.

second, spells that dont hit his will or ref saves? *cough*call of stone*cough* from a BBEG or leiutennant thereoff, is a good way of waking somone up. as are gasseous poisons, look in serpent kingdoms if you want some ammusing ones.

other ideas also include give monsters levels from ToB classes. a troll warblade (or a blackscale lizardman with a greataxe, or hell, a half dragon warblade) should practicly ignore his ac with its attack bonuses.

[aeauseth]

I have a tripping fighter as a player in one of my campaigns. Level 10 about a 32 AC. He does pretty good damage. Likes to use Combat Expertise for a 37 AC. He is pretty hard to hit.

At least one encounter per session has a foe with touch attacks, or an advanced creature with a huge size. Sometimes I'll throw 8 mid level foes at the party, which means the fighter can't control all of them. He is horrible at range and I'm planning a flying sniper type of encounter soon. Later on a beholder (40+ feet in the air) encounter could be interesting.

This fighter typically takes minimal damage regardless of the encounter. He likes to keep other party members safe. As long as he's a team player and the rest of the players feel productive I don't really mind as a DM.

It sounds like your party is working together as a team. So I'm not really sure I see a serious problem. Just put in a challanging fight on occasion.

[Greyfell]

Thank tons for all the replies gang. Appreciate it. Just some quick notes:

He's a monk/swordsage base... even touch attacks aren't a gaurentee as he is high DEX and his AC bonuses specifically apply even to touch attacks.

I do try to bypass him to threaten other players, but he's good at creating choke points (or finding them asap and blocking them up), plus a lot of the party are pretty darn hard to hit too. Even the Sorcerer rarely gets hit, as he's very diligent in buffing his AC right away when things look bad.

But yeah, overall the team seems to be working well together. Right now we've got the dwarf swordmonk, a dwarf paladin with a crusader dip, the Mystic ranger based archer, and a variant Sorc. Plus the Mystic Rangers animal Cohort (she needed an animal companion of some sort for her PrC plans) and the Paladin has Leadership and a 4th level dwarven fighter cohort. A four man band, +2 sidekicks to help with flanking etc.