[3.5] Martial Study

[Crow]

This feat states that you need to meet the prerequisites of any maneuver you decide to pick up with the feat.

It would seem this only means the items listed under "prerequisites" in the maneuver description, and not the stuff like "warblade 8".

Is this correct?

[GhoulPolitician]

yes, also remember that non-initiator class levels count as 1/2 IL each

[HunterOfJello]

Warblade 8 isn't a requirement, it's a reference of how the maneuver relates to the base classes. It's the same as where a spell might indicate "Cleric 7, Wizard/Sorcerer 8".

[Crow]

Thanks guys, that's what I thought.

[Zaydos]

So could you take Overwhelming Mountain Strike (the Lv 9 Stone Dragon maneuver) at Lv 1 with the feat since it has no prerequisites; I think that (or similar) is what Crow is asking about.

[Scow2]

So could you take Overwhelming Mountain Strike (the Lv 9 Stone Dragon maneuver) at Lv 1 with the feat since it has no prerequisites; I think that (or similar) is what Crow is asking about.

You do need a high enough Initiator Level to take the ability.

[Kylarra]

So could you take Overwhelming Mountain Strike (the Lv 9 Stone Dragon maneuver) at Lv 1 with the feat since it has no prerequisites; I think that (or similar) is what Crow is asking about.

If you somehow had an IL of 17...

[Frosty]

Without ToB classes, one can never have an IL higher than 10, so no, one can't take that maneuver at level 1 with Martial Study.

[Crow]

But the prerequisites don't say anything about initiator level at all...

[Zaydos]

Which is why I pointed out that was what the real question was.

[Elfin]

I'd always interpreted that wording as meaning the normal requirements to use a maneuver, rather than what's actually written in the 'Prerequisites' line of a maneuver's description.
Surely, if WotC had actually intended the proper IL not to be required, they'd have specified that you need only have the required maneuver prerequisites - since not requiring IL would be quite outside the norm.

[Frosty]

But the prerequisites don't say anything about initiator level at all...

I never said it was very clearly written, but trust me on this. You can glean more by reading the section about multiclassing in the ToB.

[Crow]

It seems like in the case of the feat, you only need to worry about what is listed under prerequisites. The class levels are only indicators. Otherwise Martial Study is an incredible weaksauce feat.

[Eldariel]

It seems like in the case of the feat, you only need to worry about what is listed under prerequisites. The class levels are only indicators. Otherwise Martial Study is an incredible weaksauce feat.

If it bypassed IL requirements, it'd be ridiculous since everyone could get Strike of Perfect Clarity, Mountain Tombstone Strike and such on level 1. I think it's a safe bet that:
- You need appropriate Initiator Level (that is, your levels in an Initiator Class + ½ your level in other classes) to qualify for the maneuver you desire.
- You need to have the prerequisite number of maneuvers available.
- You do not need any specific class levels (otherwise PrCs from ToB wouldn't work either)

[Yuki Akuma]

It seems like in the case of the feat, you only need to worry about what is listed under prerequisites. The class levels are only indicators. Otherwise Martial Study is an incredible weaksauce feat.

Intentionally misreading rules to make them sound better doesn't actually change them, you know. You need an initiator level of 17 to learn a 9th level maneuver, period.

[Crow]

Intentionally misreading rules to make them sound better doesn't actually change them, you know. You need an initiator level of 17 to learn a 9th level maneuver, period.

If I was intentionally mis-reading the rules I wouldn't have made the thread, dude.

I was looking for clarification, which Eldariel provided in a far less inflamatory manner than you did.

Thanks everybody for clearing this up for me.

[Frosty]

It's really not that weaksauce. Some low-level maneuvers are awesome. Plus, it paves the way for Martial Stance, which is REALLY awesome.

[Runestar]

Maneuvers like wall of blades (great vs touch attacks), white raven tactics and moment of precise mind (though it requires fighters to max out concentration) never really go out of style.

[Andion Isurand]

When playing the "fighter feat wizard" variant... I often take the feat to gain Tumble as a class skill from level one by choosing a desert wind manuver.

[Eldariel]

When playing the "fighter feat wizard" variant... I often take the feat to gain Tumble as a class skill from level one by choosing a desert wind manuver.

I occasionally take Baffling Defense to get Sense Motive in class with classes I feel absolutely should have it (Cleric/Druid). Doesn't hurt that it effectively gives you AC = 1d20 (avg. 11) + Wis (lots) + Lvl+3. Can average upwards to 26 (11 + 6 Wis + 9 Ranks) on level 6, which is really nice especially with the potential skill boosters later on.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Personally I like Wolf Fang Strike on level 1 rogues, help a bit with mobilty early on

[Eldariel]

Personally I like Wolf Fang Strike on level 1 rogues, help a bit with mobilty early on

Generally TWF Rogues want so many maneuvers that I tend to just dip SS twice with them (doesn't hurt you get recovery that way too). You really want Distracting Ember, Wolf Fang Strike, Island of Blades & Flashing Sun and Searing Blade is fine too. And then you really want Assassin's Stance and Pouncing Charge later. Wis to AC doesn't hurt either since you'll probably wear a light armor and Wis grants you bonus to few key skills and your worst save anyways. Like, my old Rogue intended for Test of Might actually got rather decent AC thanks to that; and a rather extensive UMD box of tricks.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well yeah, but right now my rogue/swordsage builds, are more heavy on the swordsage side