3.5 Assassin vs Pathfinder Assassin

[Susano-wo]

I recently created a character in Pathfinder (actually inspired by a thread that's still going) that is a good-assassin. (though he's more on the neutral side of it. He has limits, but he will do some evil things to complete what he considers the greater good: to kill horrible people. especially those the law can't/won't touch.

Now, a bit of irony. I had always thought it odd that the default 3rd Ed Assassin class had magic. It just seemed a little strange to make that the default, rather than a cool alternate assassin concept.

But now this character I do want to have that magic-using shadow assassin feel. And now, due to a design decision I completely agree with thematically, I cannot, by RAW. Now my Dm has worked with me to drop some abilities, and add the spellcasting on, but I had a balance question.

It looks to me, with the extra abilities that the PF assassin adds, it is roughly balanced with the DMG assassin.

Here are the SRD URLs: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/pres...asses/assassin

To Summarize, the PF class has some cool skill bonuses/uses and pumps up the usability of the death attack, but drops spellcasting entirely.

So my question is twofold:1. Is it balanced with the DMG assassin, or is it stronger /weaker
2. Is it balanced with PF, since they pumped up most base classes, does that make it actually weaker, inflation-wise?

[Ravens_cry]

Well, if you go for splat books or the spell compendium, the 3.5 edition has some nifty spells, flavourful and useful. Also, most of extra the abilities of the Pathfinder edition, especially the true death line are only useful for an NPC. Most of the time if enemy dies, no one is going to bother raising them. And if it's the big bad, the DM can easily have someone cast True Resurrection, so the capstone is useless. The only ones I like for a PC are the Quiet Death and possibly the swift death. The DC for the amount of time it takes for a normal Death Attack is still pitiful.
One good thing is that sneak attack works on more things now, but the ways of getting past the other ones is not available unless you add 3.5 material, though there might be something in none Core Pathfinder I don't own.
Also, they are still evil. That bugs me.

[Susano-wo]

Thanks for the feedback! We do run a pretty sandboxy game, so the things liek death attack and true death might come in a little andy-er (also, he isn't necessarily just going to be tackling Cr appropriate evil doers--a perfectly mundane murderer, etc who has bribed the law would be right up his alley as well--so the DC becomes a bit better.

I was wondering about the DC, though, is the trouble just that its hard to raise the DC compared to a spell? because it looks like it ends up, at ECL 20 to be the standard DC for non spell abilities (That is, 10+half HD+stat) (oh and I guess that you probably don't usually have a caster stat level INT...)

But yeah, Quiet and Swift death my DM let me keep, and I gave up the other new abilities to get spellcasting back (With those nice non PHB spells--we are allowing complete 3.5 access as well, so no problems there.). We figure if it ends up being too powerful, we can tone it down :D

And yes, we threw out both the Evil req(obviously) and the killing someone just to be an assassin--he's a solo operative, and a part of no guild.

[ericgrau]

True death and Angel of Death makes more difference for NPC assasins, as PC deaths tend to hurt more than monster deaths. On average the first makes half of raises fail. That and the second cost a lot of money. Quiet Death and Swift Death OTOH are nuts. Stealth is far easier to pump than perception, meaning you can kill with impunity. Swift death is a 1/day SoD.

3.5 assassin casting OTOH may be easily replaced with dirt cheap magic items like potions so it's worth almost nothing as a class feature. Ya, once you reach 6th level the PF assasin is significantly more powerful, though not game breaking I think.

[The Glyphstone]

I was wondering about the DC, though, is the trouble just that its hard to raise the DC compared to a spell? because it looks like it ends up, at ECL 20 to be the standard DC for non spell abilities (That is, 10+half HD+stat) (oh and I guess that you probably don't usually have a caster stat level INT...)

.

That, and the fact that the rate at which saves increase, from stats/HD/items, is judged against the rate at which spell DC's increase.

[Susano-wo]

@Glyphstone. I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you think that the DC is ok, since it follows the normal DC procedures?(by 20...you actually jump ahead if you go right into assassin ^ ^)

[Starbuck_II]

There are 3 assassins if you are including Pathfinder:
SRD Assassin (spells)
PSRD Assassin (No spells)
Red Mantis Assassin (spells)
http://nethys.karuikage.net/classesP...antis-assassin



Spells = awesome, and RMA isn't a bad Assassin if you don't mind a Mantis theme.

[ErrantX]

I personally like the idea of taking the PF Assassin and giving it 3.5's spells. Why you ask? Because Assassin isn't all that good in either case, and suddenly it becomes viable.

-X

[Hawriel]

.
Also, they are still evil. That bugs me.

yes because killing is good.

[The Glyphstone]

yes because killing is good.

In D&D? Sadly, it is. But only if what you are killing has green skin and/or fangs.

[Newbieshoes]

Theres also the Tome assassin which is a 20 level base class. Your DM may freak at the thought of a non spell caster with this much power however. I know mine whined his head off about the "Oh my god 66D6 sneak attack damage in 1 round." Even after I pointed out it takes 2 rounds to set up and a straight rogue pushes out just as many D6s in 2 rounds as well.


http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

[Ravens_cry]

yes because killing is good.

In D&D, practically every class has some way of murderizing someone. It's what the game is about.

[Person_Man]

They're both garbage, because the core mechanics of Sneak Attack, Poison Use, and Death Attack are all weak. 3.5 Assassin is a bit stronger, as their spells are more versatile and useful then the PF abilities, which seem geared towards NPCs.

[Susano-wo]

I personally like the idea of taking the PF Assassin and giving it 3.5's spells. Why you ask? Because Assassin isn't all that good in either case, and suddenly it becomes viable.

-X

See, I kinda thought that, but didn't know if I was being biased >.>. Like, the assassin has cool abilities, and a lot of fun flavor, but how often are all of them going to come into play?

IN any case, I got to keep the cooler abilities (kept quiet death and moved swirft death to a capstone), and spellcasting, so yay ^ ^
@starbuck II: thanks. I wasn't aware of the Red Mantis assassin. I think I'll stick with our mish mash (mantis theme doesn't really fit him too well ,I think), but I appreciate the link :P

[randomhero00]

Assassin and Shadowdancer are hands down the weakest PrCs in pathfinder.

[Susano-wo]

Not really sure how sneak attack is that weak. We aren't really al lthat hi-op, but xtra d6's of damage any tie you can deny them dex mod or flank em seems pretty sweet. And wtih PF the whole can't sneak attack undead and such goes away, so that's better.

And wtih death attack, it doesn't seem like its great against CR appropriate encounters, or in a encounter focused campaign, but in a sandbox campaign it seems usefull, if not overwhelming. (enemies with low fort saves or enemies with good HP but more than my SA damage still have to save or die, and with quiet death I can do it in a crowded street and be gone before anyone realizes he's dead.)

Poison use is a silly ability, only because the chance to posion yourself when carefully coating a blade in poison is also silly. aside fomr that, yay for not deing due to your own poisons...(unless you mean the poisons themselves, in which case I'm still not sure that they are so bad..)

[lsfreak]

Poison use is a silly ability, only because the chance to posion yourself when carefully coating a blade in poison is also silly. aside fomr that, yay for not deing due to your own poisons...(unless you mean the poisons themselves, in which case I'm still not sure that they are so bad..)

Look at the save DC's of poisons. Now look at the cost of poisons. Now look at how much damage they do.

Now compare that to a single wand of ray of enfeeblement, and cry. 15gp for every 1d6 penalty you do, and no save.

Poisons as-written are horrifically overpriced and far too easy to avoid, plus you never see the full benefit (if something's still alive a minute later, you've failed). The only poison that's really worth it is drow knockout poison on a volley archer (8 DC13 saves a round), or using major creation to make yourself 4000 doses of black lotus extract cheaply.

[Susano-wo]

Oh, Isee. I had thought the dc's fairly low, but I figured its just because you are adding these penalties on top of your attacks, so its kinda like a bonus. never thought about it on the cost side of things (I haven't ever actually played a charater who used poisons before. does anyone know any good fixes? or would halving the costs of something do ok?

[Mongoose87]

That Red Mantis Assassin looks pretty cool, and appears to be better than 3.5 and PF's assassins in every way.

[BobVosh]

Capstone for RMA is kind of weak. Fun class beyond that.

[ericgrau]

Look at the save DC's of poisons. Now look at the cost of poisons. Now look at how much damage they do.

Now compare that to a single wand of ray of enfeeblement, and cry. 15gp for every 1d6 penalty you do, and no save.

Takes an action rather than being part of another action. Try again with quickened enfeeblement. 1125 gp because it can't be wanded and you still can't do it multiple times per round. Most of a typical 5 round fight happens in the first 2 rounds, so anything you can do to buy more actions is immensely powerful. Action economy is way too underrated.

[tyckspoon]

Assassin and Shadowdancer are hands down the weakest PrCs in pathfinder.

No, that would be the Pathfinder Chronicler (the one they took out Horizon Walker for.) Pathfinder's Shadowdancer is actually pretty neat- it's got the standard 3.5 stuff, plus Rogue Talents, plus spell-like uses of Shadow Conjuration and Evocation (Greater Shadow Conjuration at 10th level, as kind of a double capstone) plus a pretty nifty capstone ability. Certainly stronger than 3.5 Shadowdancer, which was mostly good for dipping Hide in Plain Sight.

[Flickerdart]

Look at the save DC's of poisons. Now look at the cost of poisons. Now look at how much damage they do.

Now compare that to a single wand of ray of enfeeblement, and cry. 15gp for every 1d6 penalty you do, and no save.

Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself - 1d6 is all you're doing. Hitting someone with a Manyshot full of black lotus extract huts considerably more.

You can also milk poison from vermin, or pick up Wild Cohort for a Fleshraker and milk that.

[randomhero00]

No, that would be the Pathfinder Chronicler (the one they took out Horizon Walker for.) Pathfinder's Shadowdancer is actually pretty neat- it's got the standard 3.5 stuff, plus Rogue Talents, plus spell-like uses of Shadow Conjuration and Evocation (Greater Shadow Conjuration at 10th level, as kind of a double capstone) plus a pretty nifty capstone ability. Certainly stronger than 3.5 Shadowdancer, which was mostly good for dipping Hide in Plain Sight.

OK I'll give you part of that. But its still not worth taking, you lose too much sneak attack as a rogue.

[Nero24200]

I for one am for giving them spells. Without spells they feel too much like a variant rogue for my liking. In fact, use the posion varant in the Pathfinder Campaign Book and they're identical barr Death Attack.

I've also personally liked the idea of the assasin having spells that let them bypass certain other spell effects (like Alarm) so they can do their job a little better.