Pathfinder/TOB mixing - ideas and questions

[Grynning]

I know there's probably been discussion on this before, but "ToB+Pathfinder" is way too broad of a search to find it on this board.

Basically, I'm slowly convincing one of my groups to let me run a 3.5 game again, which will be combining elements of Eberron, Pathfinder, and TOB. I have read Saph's excellent guide on the comparison between 3.5 and PF, so I'm pretty well-prepared for the most part, there's just a few things I'm getting ironed out.

One of the main things I noticed was that Pathfinder has no Concentration skill, since casting defensively/under pressure is now a CL check. Since this is the key discipline for Diamond Mind (my favorite discipline by far), I was thinking of using Autohypnosis instead, which basically does the kinda things I always thought concentration should do all along. I think it'll work just fine, and fits well thematically.

So question 1) Besides the above, are there any other weird rules interactions between Pathfinder changes and TOB classes/maneuvers I should look out for?

Question 2 is about the Pathfinder Artificer. I like the look of it on the surface, it seems much less broken than the 3.5 artificer and is still nice and flavorful. However, having never ran PF before and having not seen much discussion of the class, I was wondering if it drops right into the Eberron setting to replace the original Artificer, or if it'll need some adjustment.

Question 3 is about Gestalt. With PF classes generally being designed to lack dead levels and to be more focused than old classes, Gestalt seems like it would be a higher-powered variant than it already is. However, I've always wanted to try it, so I'm wondering if PF/TOB gestalt characters will stack up well against PF monsters, or if they'll steamroll the base PF monsters too easily, requiring me to adjust/homebrew more.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

[Rixx]

I haven't seen much of that Pathfinder Artificer in play, but notice that it's a third party class. Just from glancing over it I notice it breaks a lot of the core assumptions of Pathfinder (at one point it says "rounding up, naturally", though the default assumption in d20 is to round down - also, the class has empty levels), and a lot of it is unclear (it notes access to "both arcane and divine spell lists", when spell lists are sorted by class, not magic source) so I'd be wary of allowing it. It's also susceptible to cheese - after you use up all your "spells" per day, you can substitute a UMD skill check to keep going anyway (20, +1 per extra use) - since skills are pretty easy to get very high (Class skill + skill focus + Magical Aptitude allows an extra +8 on top of ability modifier right at level 1), and players can easily end up with huge skill bonuses at high levels, and since the drawback of a failed check isn't really a drawback (you break your spellcasting item, though you can make another one for free, as no cost is listed), you'll quickly find that your artificer never runs out of resources - and though he or she only gets up to fourth level "spells", they have access to pretty much any spell they want. Granted, they'll probably get outpaced at later levels, but it's a bit of a slippery slope that a canny player would be able to exploit.

[Dark_Nohn]

The only thing I can say about this, is that in PF, you do not use EXP to craft items at all, ever. The market price being twice the crafting price is to account for labor, expertise, and time invested. This makes the artificer's key ability (pool of free experience for crafting) useless.

Also, PF core classes being more powerful was to downsize the role of PrCs, but certain PrCs are still worthwhile, depending on how your DM runs gestalt/PrC rules.

[Esser-Z]

Autohypnosis is absolutely a perfect idea for replacing concentration. 'Tis what I use. The mechanics fit the concept perfectly, and it's actually USEFUL to martial characters!

The only other interaction I can think of is setting sun, but just replacing the trips/grabs with a CMB check should work!

[Person_Man]

RE: Question 3: One of the things that 3.X and Pathfinder D&D sucks at is encounter balance. It almost ALWAYS requires some DM adjustment. This is especially true in gestalt, regardless of what materials you draw upon.

[Esser-Z]

RE: Question 3: One of the things that 3.X and Pathfinder D&D sucks at is encounter balance. It almost ALWAYS requires some DM adjustment. This is especially true in gestalt, regardless of what materials you draw upon.

I've never seen a system where this isn't the case, though.

This makes the artificer's key ability (pool of free experience for crafting) useless.

To be fair, this wasn't really that useful ANYWAY. It got used up REALLY fast. (So I got the GM to let me pay for exp costs with craft points, which effectively removed them... Didn't unbalance the game at all, actually!)

[true_shinken]

Do note the Pathfinder Artificer is third party, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Grynning]

I know it's third party. Of course, Pathfinder really is just a giant 3rd party 3.5 supplement, isn't it?

[true_shinken]

I know it's third party. Of course, Pathfinder really is just a giant 3rd party 3.5 supplement, isn't it?

Yeah, but Paizo usually does their thing very carefully, with long playtests and the like. Other companies don't. So... yeah.

[Serenity]

Since the Concentration skill is used by Diamond Mind primarily to strike precise vulnerable points, I'd argue that Perception is far more appropriate a replacement than Autohypnosis.

[Grynning]

Since the Concentration skill is used by Diamond Mind primarily to strike precise vulnerable points, I'd argue that Perception is far more appropriate a replacement than Autohypnosis.

It also uses it to substitute for saving throws, which Autohypnosis fits much better for, given that it is already used to resist pain and such. And perception is already one of the most utilized skills in the game already.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, but Paizo usually does their thing very carefully, with long playtests and the like. Other companies don't. So... yeah.

They ain't perfect, but at a minimum, they're no worse than WoTC. Im afraid I cant say that about every 3rd party company.

[Prime32]

Yeah, but Paizo usually does their thing very carefully, with long playtests and the like. Other companies don't. So... yeah.

Dreamscarred Press anyone?

[Esser-Z]

Since the Concentration skill is used by Diamond Mind primarily to strike precise vulnerable points, I'd argue that Perception is far more appropriate a replacement than Autohypnosis.

No, it's use as a focusing thing. A Diamond Mind practitioner isn't looking hard for a weakpoint. He's focusing his mind so that the weakpoint becomes obvious. Rather than attempting to perceive, he is reaching a state where he knows.

[Gerbah]

I actually did DM a campaign using Pathfinder and ToB, so I'll give you my thoughts.

1 - You shouldn't run into any other problems other than concentration being gone (as well as Tumble and the like, but Acrobatics fits the bill). We used Perception instead, but Auto-hypnosis makes at least as much sense if not more.

2 - I'd steer clear of that Pathfinder Artificer, everything about it just seems so awkward mechanically. 5 + Int skill points a level and a d6 hit die with 3/4 BAB goes against what they tried, and it doesn't seem they changed the Artificer's more broken mechanic (freely, in a sense, applying metamagics to wands and scrolls). That's just at a cursory glance but it doesn't ring well with me.

3 - You'll steamroll PF monsters incredibly easy with ToB, mixing it with Gestalt (which is indeed more powerful in Pathfinder) will make it even easier. So you'll have to work around this. Giving the monsters a bit more HP can help, though it's likely this will only mean having them last an extra turn or so. You're gonna have to experiment with different things to see what can challenge the party.

[true_shinken]

Dreamscarred Press anyone?

I don't actually know them.
Most of my bias toward 3rd party content comes from Mongoose Publishing and a brazilian company called Daemon.
Daemon's work is atrocious. In their first D&D sourcebook, they cleraly hadn't read the rules at all - they had stuff like 'this class gains Weapon Finesse, but it applies to longbows'... I mean, WTF?!
They also had an alternate base class that could create mundane items from shadows, at will, at level ONE. Oh, it also had full base attack, 8 skill points per level and d8 hit dice.

[Endarire]

My GM runs Concentration as such for martial adepts:

Initiator level + INT mod. You can still buy skill boosters at normal price.

My GM also dislikes martial adepts in Pathfinder, saying that they "replace" some of the base classes. (Put your arguments in another thread. Let's not clutter this one.)

Drearmscarred Press is seemingly run by the same people who made 3.5's psionics. Their Pathfinder psionic system is 3.5's with some minor changes. You can trust them!