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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    MonkGuy

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    Default [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Okay, so I have a friend who is running a campaign. I want to make a slightly gimmicky character, which just enough oomph to make it able to pull its weight.

    I would prefer to stay away from sources like Tome of Battle, Monstrous sources, etc. Basically, no ubercharger builds and hulking hurlers. Also, would like to stay away from casting if at all possible.

    Idea I have in mind so far is starting out with two-wep spec Ranger (weapon will be whip, hence the gimmick), prestige into Lasher (unless there is a better prestige class) and then to something else, maybe Tempest. Reason I start with Ranger is for the stealth aspects, and for Spot/Listen. My guy is a forward scout in this campaign, so that fluff would be reasonable, IMHO. If there are more classes that would be more helpful, I am all ears, so to speak.

    As for feats, other than prereqs (one of which I am calling is Imp. Trip. I mean, c'mon, a whip needs to trip, yes?), I am open to suggestion.

    For equipment, the DM is going to homebrew a weapon(s) for me so the standard whip isn't so...lame...for lack of better terms.

    Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Also, please cite your source so I can present it to my DM. Much obliged.
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Skill tricks (from Complete Scoundrel) might help you.
    Ranger gets very nice ACFs - Trapfinding might help you diversify your focus.
    If you can't afford high Str due to mind, Factotum 3 will let you use Int to trip.

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    There's a blade whip somewhere (Savage Species?) which deals lethal damage. If you don't mind Psionics, a 1-level dip into Pyrokineticist will get you whips made of fire, which make touch attacks. A Ranger/Psychic Warrior/Pyrokineticist/Slayer is a fairly capable combatant. If you don't want psionics, Saph's Horizon Tripper is fantastic. There are also braid blades somewhere, which essentially let you whip using your hair.

    The Horizon Tripper is core-only (but check the adaptation section). The psionic build is core + Expanded Psionics Handbook (which is in the SRD).
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2010-10-12 at 11:59 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    I think you might want the whip dagger (hurt armored characters), and the mighty versions which grant strength to damage. Definitely in Sword and Fist, not sure where else to find them.

    Exotic weapon master for your whip in Complete Warrior.

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Bardic Masters Whip from the Dark Sun PHB has the Masters Whip, which is basically a whip with class and obsidian shards in it. Also deals lethal damage.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    I think you might be interested in Monsieur Haberdash the Masked. (plz no thread necro)

    Because factotums, well, they got gimmicks sho'nuff, but ol' Haberdash the Masked, he picks gimmicks.

    And can use any and every weapon available while having trapmonkeying and being fairly SAD to boot.

    Which can let you use lassos to trip like you would whips, with a maximum range of 30'(range increments of 10', so -4 on the touch attack at max range) or choose to partially entangle instead.

    Of course, the build requires, at minimum, Dungeonscape (factotum source) and Complete Scoundrel (master of masks source, also available online from WOTC) with other sources for more weapons. Like Book of Exalted Deeds for the lassos I was just mentioning...
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2010-10-13 at 01:03 AM.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    If I take Lasher as a PrC, I won't really need a Whip Dagger, because Lasher allows damage done by a whip to be either lethal or non-lethal, player's choice.

    I'm thinking of dipping enough into lasher to get the 3d6 sneak damage, which would class out as Ranger 5, Lasher 9. So I need 6 more levels of something good, and that Psychic Warrior/Pyrokineticist combo sounds pretty awesome. what would I have to level out in my final 6 to get that done? Or do I need to start earlier and finish out with more levels of Lasher?
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaxi View Post
    So I need 6 more levels of something good, and that Psychic Warrior/Pyrokineticist combo sounds pretty awesome. what would I have to level out in my final 6 to get that done? Or do I need to start earlier and finish out with more levels of Lasher?
    I'd drop Psychic Warrior and start with a psychic race.
    I specially like xeph and elan.

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    You have access to Eberron material? A fun build I've been toying with recently is

    Changeling Barbarian 4 (With pounce if you can get it)/ Warshaper 4/ Whatever 12

    Warshaper is Complete Warrior and has pretty easy requirements for a Changeling. Then you can grow a bunch of natural attacks and hit people with them. Add in some multiattack and you're golden, you've got a bunch of natural attacks you can make with reach and hopefully pounce so you can use them on a charge. After level 8 you can take levels in anything you like.

    Changeling as a race is also good as a scout, you can look like anybody you want of any race you want. Sneaking up on some orcs? No problem, look like an orc and shank him with a claw you grew. Trying to do some fun roleplaying stuff in a city? Convince a guard you're his long lost twin brother.

    Mechanically its pretty solid too, especially if you tack on some scout levels to let you get skirmish damage on a charge.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    You don't need PsiWar to get into Pyro, just a chaotic alignment and power points.

    I'd suggest an Elan, due to never dying of old age.

    Pyro1 nets you the lash. Pyro 3 nets you Bolt of Fire which lets you shoot bolts of fire as a ranged touch attack for when your opponents are not in melee. Pyro 4 nets you Weapon Afire which lets you add 2d6 fire damage to your weapons. Nimbus and Firewalk both suck if you only have 1pp. Greater Weapon Afire comes at level 8, and increases to 4d6 fire damage on your weapons. Heat Death sucks due to abysmally low DC on the save. Conflagration is only 1/day, so it sucks.

    Thus, your level breaks for pyro are:

    * 1st level just for the lash. This is a touch attack whip which does 1d8 fire damage, which is significantly better than any non-homebrewed whip, which alone makes it worthwhile.

    * 3rd for Bolt of Fire to take care of ranged opponents

    * 4th level for Weapon Afire to increase damage output

    * 8th level for Greater Weapon Afire.

    Personally, I'd either do a one-level dip or go for 4. Greater Weapon Afire isn't worth 4 dead levels.

    If your game is not particularly concerned about character power, I'd also suggest dipping into Soulknife, just for the sheer WTF factor.

    You are completely unarmed and unarmored. Suddenly, you are wielding a flame lash which is on fire, and a blade of coherent energy which is also on fire.

    Soulknife is, mechanically, one of the weakest classes made. However, the description of cornering a helpless and unarmored fellah (you) only to have him sprout flaming weapons out of nowhere is just made of badass.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    I do like those ideas, guys. Very creative, but the only drawback, and it is my fault for being remiss, is basic races. I am going to make a human, for the bonus feat. My DM isn't going to allow extra non-core races, methinks. Or ECL's. BUt one day, with one who will, I do want to try those combos out.

    That being said, is there some other way to do the fire whip thing? That just screams awesome to me.
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
    To kill is Orcish...To kill and blame it on someone else is Dark Elven.
    The love of money is not the root of all evil. Elves are. -Henry David Thoreau-

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaxi View Post
    I do like those ideas, guys. Very creative, but the only drawback, and it is my fault for being remiss, is basic races. I am going to make a human, for the bonus feat. My DM isn't going to allow extra non-core races, methinks. Or ECL's. BUt one day, with one who will, I do want to try those combos out.

    That being said, is there some other way to do the fire whip thing? That just screams awesome to me.
    The Elans are in the SRD, no reason to not use them. No ECL on them either.

    Fire whip thing is from a class, not a race. Specifically, Pyrokeneticist. For that, you just need PP.

    For that, you can dip PsiWar, or if you want to duo-wield flaming whip and blade of pure coherent energy, dip Soulknife.

    Break points for Soulknife are as follows:

    * 1st for the PP to qualify for Pyrokeneticist and the basic short sword sized mind blade.

    * 5th for 'free draw' to be able to manifest his mind blade as a free action, AND be able to manifest a longsword sized mind blade rather than shortsword.

    * 6th for Mind Blade Enhancement +1. You can change around which one you use. Lucky and Keen are good. Defending if you have a way of getting higher bonuses and want to be more defensive.

    * 10th for Mind Blade Enhancement +2. This gains access to Wounding (con damage per hit) and Collision (flat +5 damage). Situationally, if you are facing psionic creatures, Mindcrusher can be useful (half the damage you deal also is dealt to their PP pool, one out of PP takes Wis damage)

    * 13th for Knife to the Soul. Stat damage is always nice, particularly when targeting casters with stat damage to their casting stat.
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Thanks for the advice! If more want to post their suggestions, I would love to read them! Thanks again!
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
    To kill is Orcish...To kill and blame it on someone else is Dark Elven.
    The love of money is not the root of all evil. Elves are. -Henry David Thoreau-

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    a half-giant on the other hand, also from the srd, will give you an LA of one, which you might be able to buy off, but also effectively large size and a power point reserve due to being naturally psionic.

    No greater natural reach, but a bonus on, say, tripping people with your 15 foot lash of fire and larger damage dice with your other weapons.
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    As a human, using your bonus feat on Wild Talent/Hidden Talent will give you the PP reserve you need for Pyrokineticist.

    Psychic Warrior is there so you can enter Slayer, because it's a fantastic gish class. If you don't want manifesting, then the PsyWar/Slayer part of that build isn't necessary.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2010-10-15 at 12:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Okay, so I will be passing on the pyromancer. What classes are good to focus with for Dual Wielding? Or would I benefit from EWM (PrC) at all? Looking for mostly martial class choices, avoiding the magic users and psions. Preferrably full BAB classes, but if the abilities are worth it, I will take a dock to it.


    Thanks!
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    For pure damage without using ToB, its hard to beat a Daring Outlaw build. Daring Outlaw is a feat from CScoundrel that stacks your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels together to determine your Grace and Sneak Attack features.

    This means that you can build something like Rogue4/Swashbuckler16 and get full Rogue's 10d6 Sneak Attack on a 19/20 BAB chassis. Able Learner (Races of Destiny) allows you to keep your roguey skills maxed, while a high Int gives you enough skill points to fill all those skills (on top of giving you bonus damage).

    Grab a pair of shortswords or daggers and go to town!
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaxi View Post
    I'm thinking of dipping enough into lasher to get the 3d6 sneak damage, which would class out as Ranger 5, Lasher 9.
    You're giving up the Death Spiral capstone ability?

    Anyway, fighter levels could come in handy. You need feats, and Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII) are extra useful to a two-weapon wielder. I'd also consider starting out as a ranger4/fighter1.

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    I had an Indiana Jones build that use a whip in the primary hand and (depending on splat books) either a Shock Lance (Lords of Madness, grell weapon) or a Wand of Scorching ray in the other that did well in melee.

    To get the most out of your whip you need 13 int, and then go combat expertise and either improved disarm or improved trip. You get a 15 ft. range on either; the trip is more useful because it can be used on low level enemies, but the whip gives you an extra +2 on disarm attempts, and +6 is really nice at level 1. As a human fighter or bard this is possible at level 1, as a ranger your going to need to wait awhile (cause you need prof with the whip, combat expertise and either of the abilities).

    To keep getting the most out of your whip you need a high str score, so that you can keep tripping or disarming throughout your levels. A whip is kinda pointless without either tripping or disarming; but with them you get a ft. foot reach, so you can make a move action towards say an enemy wizard, stay at range and make a trip attempt. Wizards have crappy stats (most people throw them into con and int) so they aren't going to make a good roll. You can almost certainly trip them, meaning that you can end a wizards spell casting attempt almost for sure starting at 45 ft. away.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    If you are planning on dual wielding and are going to be the scout for the party. Why not do a swift ambusher build...maybe into dervish along with some lasher. You would be able to track, find traps, have evasion, move faster, use the whip really well, and move around the battlefield getting full attack actions with additional damage thanks to skirmish. Not a bad combo I wouldn't say.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    How would one go about doing the swift ambusher? I want to use whips, dual wield them, and be a scout/skill monkey, but have enough clout to count. G3N3RAL GHOST, your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to learn more. lol
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    Problem with Whips is that they are 1 handed. Since you don't have a light offhand, your penalties are at -4 for both hands unless you drop ANOTHER feat on Oversized TWF (CAdv). You are already feat taxed with Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and Swift Ambusher, 5 of your 7 normally available feats. OTWF makes it 6, leaving you with 1 free feat barring Human, flaws, or a Fighter dip.

    All in all, Swift Ambusher is kinda...yea. Scout requires movement to trigger, while Rogue likes to stand still and shank as many times as it can in a round. There are ways around this, such as Travel Devotion (CChamp) or a dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (CChamp).

    Also, splicing two 3/4 BAB classes together as a TWF is gonna hurt your ability to hit things. Generally with Swift Hunter builds or Daring Outlaw builds, you are putting precision damage on a nearly full BAB chassis. Swift Ambusher doesn't have the advantage of that nearly full BAB to carry all your penalities.

    If I was you, I'd go Bard, get a (ONE) Whip Dagger (A&EG), put ranks in Profession: Dance to pick up Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), then crank up either your normal Inspire Courage (google Optimize Inspire Courage) or take Dragonfire Inspiration to give you (and your WHOLE party) some bonus damage to go on top of that. That gives you excellent Cha synergy, a group buff thats a melee force multiplier, and still keeps you true to your origional concept.

    Sound decent?
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-10-19 at 11:36 AM.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    'Tis a great concept. I may have to look into it. I like the way it unfolds, the way you described it
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
    To kill is Orcish...To kill and blame it on someone else is Dark Elven.
    The love of money is not the root of all evil. Elves are. -Henry David Thoreau-

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5 ed.] Interesting melee build, need some help please.

    So, I think I am going to change my ways around the character. As I have been thinking about him, and the time grows nearer to starting this campaign, I find I want to be a whip using rogue. I don't know if I will continue to attempt a DW rug, but I will be using a whip dagger. What I would like to know if there are any good PrC's that make a whip (besides Lasher, though I may still dip into that at some point) rogue decent? And please cite your source. THANKS!!!

    P.S. I may not know some of the abbreviations for some sources. Apologies in advance!
    To err is Human...To blame it on someone else is Elven.
    To kill is Orcish...To kill and blame it on someone else is Dark Elven.
    The love of money is not the root of all evil. Elves are. -Henry David Thoreau-

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